Lieutenants = Castellans?

[Medjugorje]

The upcoming codex has a blurb on how BTs do not codex ranks, but name their captains Marshals and their lieutenants Castellans.

nice to hear that.

[Ciler]

On a side note, did anyone else notice that in the codex (and unlike the index) Marshals (captains) and Castellans (lieutenants) effectively have 3 weapons and can have a CC weapon and 2 pistols ? A bolt pistol has been added to their inventory for free.

 

It cannot be exchanged, however, and I assume it's for backward compatibility with some of the old SM captain models such as this guy :

http://reho.st/https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/D9QAAOSw1h5XQcnA/s-l225.jpg

[balordazul]

I did notice that and was happy to see the Marshals (captains) and Castellans (lieutenants) and the three weapons but only gave it a glancing pass.  I was looking at a combi-plasma and hammer.  I never considered a gunslinger Castellan and the might make for a fun model to convert and play with.  

 

Good eye Ciler!

[balordazul]

On a side note, did anyone else notice that in the codex (and unlike the index) Marshals (captains) and Castellans (lieutenants) effectively have 3 weapons and can have a CC weapon and 2 pistols ? A bolt pistol has been added to their inventory for free.

 

It cannot be exchanged, however, and I assume it's for backward compatibility with some of the old SM captain models such as this guy :

http://reho.st/https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/D9QAAOSw1h5XQcnA/s-l225.jpg

 

So how would you build a gunslinger castellan?  Just double bolt pistol or maybe a specialty pistol like plasma or grav and we have a relic pistol right?  

[Ciler]

The relic pistol (the spartan) is IF only. If i were to build a gunslinger it would be bolt (because no choice), plasma, and power sword. In fairness, that's a slightly converted GSIII Cypher.

[Lysere]

I have a few models I'm setting aside specifically to be lieutenants and one is a twin bolt pistol model with a power sword on his waist. Cheap but effective and useful for getting into combat and staying there.

 

He is meant it be paired up with my sword and maul guy and then I have two ranged+power fist models who happen to have pistols already modeled on as well.

[Tekman]

I have a few models I'm setting aside specifically to be lieutenants and one is a twin bolt pistol model with a power sword on his waist. Cheap but effective and useful for getting into combat and staying there.

 

He is meant it be paired up with my sword and maul guy and then I have two ranged+power fist models who happen to have pistols already modeled on as well.

This mostly, want to be able to Pew Pew reasonably well and then smack face in cc with still the option of firing said Pew pews in cc (plasma or grab might make a nice secondary here)

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

How does this work practically? Do castellan's get two attacks in the shooting phase while locked in combat?

[Tekman]

How does this work practically? Do castellan's get two attacks in the shooting phase while locked in combat?

Models with pistols are allowed to use them in the shooting phase if they're in combat and only on the model closest (1") away from them. So you could potentially be in round two after the initial charge and combat round, have a shooting phase with the Castellen on your cc target and then continue to beat it's face in.

[Castellan Doren]

I just can't find a use for Castellans. Chaplains are a few points more, comes with a weapon, and allows reroll of all failed hits in melee.

 

Unless i built a gunslinger. But even then the weapon options don't warrant the price to me.

 

I'll make one or two to have for humour, but they will see rare use.

[Firepower]

A Castellan's aura is arguably a bit better as it applies to all wound rolls, not just those in the fight phase.  However an invulnerable save, higher Leadership (and Leadership aura) and better melee weapon for only a slightly larger point cost makes the Chaplain more appealing to me in general.

 

Of course the two can compliment each other, seeing as they don't have redundant auras.  But shy of buffing a deathstar or strictly shooty units, I feel the Chaplain is a better choice.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Firepower

[balordazul]

Firepower put it really nicely and you can take two for that slot.  The first one might augment your close quarters combat and a second one bare bones at 60 points as a fire support augmenter.

 

The fire support augmenter castellen can hang out with some Ven dreads walking around the table.  Alternately I keep eyeing the Predator Destuctor coming in at 159 and taking three to create a strong fire support nexus to assist the crusade.  Also being able to combine that with the Killshot stratagem to help deal with tough monsters and vehicles.    

[kombatwombat]

I ran a Castellan (Lieutenant) for the first time the other day. Put him in a LR Crusader with Helbrecht, Emperor's Champion, Cenobytes and ten Crusaders, with another twenty Crusaders in two Rhinos alongside.

 

When that hits, it hits hard. Helbrecht's and the Castellan's aura buffs mean the Crusaders hit on 3s with full re-rolls and generally wound on 3s re-rolling ones. It also gives Helbrecht re-roll ones to wound with Str 6 and he naturally re-rolls all hits. The Champion hits at Str 8 so generally hitting and wounding on 2s with re-rolls everywhere. Not to mention the Land Raider and Rhinos together put out up to 57 shots re-rolling all misses and 1s to wound.

 

Ran it into a large GK Paladin squad and Grand Master Voldus. The Champion did what he does best, Helbrecht carved a bloody path through the Paladins and the various power swords scattered amongst the Crusaders and Lieutenant mopped up the rest before the bulk of the Crusaders had a chance to swing.

 

YMMV, but a cheap Castellan with Power Sword and MC Bolter is going in every list of mine from now unless I'm doing a particular theme that he wouldn't fit.

[Brother Talarian]

Where do you find the profile for the lieutenant good sir? I can't seem to find it in the index.

 

He is also absent from BattleScribe... but I heard he was 60 points?

 

Updated BS, I suppose everything is in the codex

Edited August 1, 2017 by Brother Talarian

[Kisada]

Where do you find the profile for the lieutenant good sir? I can't seem to find it in the index.

 

He is also absent from BattleScribe... but I heard he was 60 points?

 

Updated BS, I suppose everything is in the codex

Page 147

[Lysere]

Where do you find the profile for the lieutenant good sir? I can't seem to find it in the index.

 

He is also absent from BattleScribe... but I heard he was 60 points?

 

Updated BS, I suppose everything is in the codex

It's not in the index but the codex that just came out.

 

Just had my first game with one and did the melee squad, Helbrecht, EC, and Castellan all in a land raider. Gave the Castellan the crusader helm since I only had one to get that little bit of extra range.

[Kontakt]

I like the idea that one castellan follows helbrecht around, helping his liege where needed. Helbrecht gives the rerolls to hit, the castellan 1s to wound. If I have a big infantry blob, I'd like to bring the chapter ancient as well, with the standard of the emperor ascendant, for more synergies than I could ever imagine. This codex has so many good character options.

[Ciler]

I've tried the marshal+castellan+CC crusader squad, that's pretty sweet.

Let's do the maths of the 10 man CC crusader squad (2 power swords) on its own, on 10 man MEQ :

• 16 rolls to hit with chainsword : 16*(4/6)*(3/6)*(2/6) = 1.8 wounds
• 5 rolls to hit with power sword : 5*(4/6)*(3/6)*(5/6) = 1.4 wounds

With re-rolls of 1 to hit (Marshal) :

• 16 rolls to hit with chainsword : 16*(8/11)*(3/6)*(2/6) = 1.9 wounds
• 5 rolls to hit with power sword : 5*(8/11)*(3/6)*(5/6) = 1.5 wounds
• that's hardly better than without because marines already hit reliably.

With re-rolls of 1 to wound (Castellan) :

• 16 rolls to hit with chainsword : 16*(4/6)*(6/11)*(2/6) = 1.9 wounds
• 5 rolls to hit with power sword : 5*(4/6)*(6/11)*(5/6) = 1.5 wounds
• again the improvement is marginal

With both re-rolls of 1:

• 16 rolls to hit with chainsword : 16*(8/11)*(6/11)*(2/6) = 2.1 wounds
• 5 rolls to hit with power sword : 5*(8/11)*(6/11)*(5/6) = 1.7 wounds

The improvement may not seem sizeable like that, but that's because those values are average over an infinite number of rolls. In a game, the number of rolls is limited and re-rolls will offset bad luck, making the result more reliable. The most important factor to me is the fact that the chainswords go over the 2 wounds mark, which guarantees one less model in the opposing squad reliably.

 

And finally, with re-roll of all failed hits, +1S (Helbrecht) and re-roll of 1 to wound :

• 16 rolls to hit with chainsword : 16*(8/11)*(6/11)*(2/6) = 2.9 wounds
• 5 rolls to hit with power sword : 5*(8/11)*(6/11)*(5/6) = 2.3 wounds

The effect of the High marshal is quite sizeable.

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ciler

[balordazul]

I agree with Ciler and my math showed a solid boost as well.  

 

My data was looking at power weapons so this might be useful when you combine it with Ciler's data.  Also as my numbers look different than Ciler's I'm only looking at a single attack and the chance for it to get a wound through a set toughness and armor value.

 

This is Helbrecht with castellen 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336954-chapter-focus-the-imperial-fists-crimson-fists-and-black-t/?p=4832277

 

This was just Helbrecht but the format is not as clean as the other post.  

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/?p=4773992

 

In the end the Castellen is a good combo with Helbrecht or even good in general.  

Edited August 1, 2017 by balordazul

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Ciler, your hit chance of 8/11=0,71 seems off, it should be 4/6+(1/6*4/6)=28/36=7/9=0.77, same for the wound reroll: 3/6+(1/6*3/6)=21/36=7/12=0,58.

If you reroll 1s you still have to hit/wound afterwards. The gain on wound rerolls of 1 is potentially higher, as marines hit on 3s but tend to wound on 4s or worse. Which in turn makes it a nice decission between the two models, as the captain has better stats and options at a higher price but the SLIGHTLY worse aura.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Ciler, your hit chance of 8/11=0,71 seems off, it should be 4/6+(1/6*4/6)=28/36=7/9=0.77, same for the wound reroll: 3/6+(1/6*3/6)=21/36=7/12=0,58.

If you reroll 1s you still have to hit/wound afterwards. The gain on wound rerolls of 1 is potentially higher, as marines hit on 3s but tend to wound on 4s or worse. Which in turn makes it a nice decission between the two models, as the captain has better stats and options at a higher price but the SLIGHTLY worse aura.

Slightly worse if not taking into account saving your poor plasma users. ;)

[Marshal Wolfhart]

That is if you use plasma on overcharge :P But a good point nonetheless.

[Marshal Laeroth]

That is if you use plasma on overcharge :P But a good point nonetheless.

No victory without sacrifice. Just helping to remove the sacrifice part. ;)