Best Troop Option?

[sanityimpaired]

Since tossing in a vanguard detachment of R&H went so well and I'm not a fan of CSM troops, I thought I'd use them to fill my troop requirements as well.

From a little bit of mathhammer, it looks like renegade cultists are the best option just because of the increased WS/BS.  

Does that match people's experiences, or do the mutants get a leg up because of mutations?

[Kinstryfe]

In my very very slight theoretical opinion, it looks like militia are good for bodies and low level shooting. Cultists cost 50% more but shoot much better. Mutants (with an enforcer) seem to be the tougher unit if you want to bog something down or go overkill on Shotguns.

[Akrim]

None of them are particularly good in conventional terms; lousy stat line, poor weapon choices, somewhat overcosted.

 

But what they do well is board control. If used correctly and in enough numbers they can protect more potent units or set up enemy units for assault by the heavy hitters like Ogryn or Spawn.

 

So depends what youre shopping for;

-Massed las fire - Cultists

-Assault - Mutants

-Mix - Spam flamers to punish in assault and overwatch. You can make them fighty too with swords and pistols.

[sanityimpaired]

None of them are particularly good in conventional terms; lousy stat line, poor weapon choices, somewhat overcosted.

 

But what they do well is board control. If used correctly and in enough numbers they can protect more potent units or set up enemy units for assault by the heavy hitters like Ogryn or Spawn.

 

So depends what youre shopping for;

-Massed las fire - Cultists

-Assault - Mutants

-Mix - Spam flamers to punish in assault and overwatch. You can make them fighty too with swords and pistols.

From a math hammer standpoint, the cultists with flamers are by far the most damaging, without taking much of a hit in terms of body count.  So militia don't ever look like a good idea.

 

Mutants are the tricky part, because I'm not sure how to factor in mutations.

[Karinon]

If you were taking a large mutant blob would you give them all shotguns or just 1/3 or 1/2?

 

Cultists with guns or assault?

[Azekai]

 

None of them are particularly good in conventional terms; lousy stat line, poor weapon choices, somewhat overcosted.

 

But what they do well is board control. If used correctly and in enough numbers they can protect more potent units or set up enemy units for assault by the heavy hitters like Ogryn or Spawn.

 

So depends what youre shopping for;

-Massed las fire - Cultists

-Assault - Mutants

-Mix - Spam flamers to punish in assault and overwatch. You can make them fighty too with swords and pistols.

From a math hammer standpoint, the cultists with flamers are by far the most damaging, without taking much of a hit in terms of body count.  So militia don't ever look like a good idea.

 

Mutants are the tricky part, because I'm not sure how to factor in mutations.

 

Can't you get militia with flamers? I have used cultists in my CSM army and they suck really hard and die constantly. Massing 4+ autoguns/lasguns without orders is largely pointless. Militia are even worse, but since the damage output of both is pretty poor, cultists only look good by comparison.

 

The way I see it, the damage output from a cultist squad might be a bit better, but neither squad is likely to accomplish much. Both militia and cultists die so easily they aren't really worth spending points on (beyond getting their bodies on the table + enforcer). Renegades and militia infantry only exist to clog the field, stop the enemy from targeting characters or reaching the tanks.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Azekai

[Akrim]

Yeah thats what i mean. You can get more flamers into a Militia squad than you can Cultists. 1pt cheaper too, but capped at 20 strong.

 

That really is the point of them, a human swamp to protect the big guns. Can swarm objectives too i suppose.

 

Shotguns are a good bet for Mutants since they should seek to advance and assault. A close second imo is laspistols since you can fire them while in assault.

 

No reason to take stub or autopistols. No idea why FW decided they should have half the range with no compensators. Shouldve made Autopistols Pistol2.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Akrim

[Kinstryfe]

My take on Cultists vs Militia, unless you need more than 20 bodies, is militia working better as a Flamers (or maybe grenade) platform. 20 Cultists with 2 Flamers is 114pts, while 108 gets you 20 Militia with 4 Flamers. You lose on average 4 or so autogun shots, but at the right range gain about 7 Flamers hits by using Militia. I've had a hard time wanting to take Cultists, but I've been touching up a bunch of Militia.

 

I should add too to keep in mind that we aren't limited to only R&H choices in this edition, and I'm looking forward to using some poxwalkers as well as a really annoying screen (similar to the old nurgle zombie mutants in the ancient eye of terror book iirc).

[sanityimpaired]

I appreciate the feedback, but I'm specifically curious about mutants.  How much of an impact do their mutations have?

[Akrim]

Well obviously it depends what you roll for them. If you get the extra attack and youre using Covenant of Khorne or Slaanesh you want to get into assault asap. Shotguns or Lasguns (or mixed) are probably your best options. Laspistols arent bad if you plan on sticking in assault with Enforcer support (so you can shoot them while engaged). The speed and toughness mutations have their obvious bonuses. 

 

Support from a Rogue Psyker Coven can help here if you can pull off Unnatural Vigor on them, losing D3 wounds to Mutants isn't so bad since theyre cheap.

 

Dont expect them to be much more than a meat shield as theyre certain to die in droves if you lead the advance with them. Theyre there to blunt the enemy advance ideally and then fall back in your turn to overwatch so your support fire can blast them.

[micahwc]

I have to say with the release of the Chaos codex, that the RnH troop choices are all just awful. Chaos cultists out of the chaos codex are cheaper than RnH cultists, and get access to legion traits, aura abilities of chaos characters, chaos strategems, and chaos psyker powers work on them. It sucks because RnH have some great elite, HQ, and heavy support options; but kitting out a battalion or brigade forces you to take suboptimal troops.

 

Malefic Lords look great. Marauders look really good for 6 points. Cheap heavy support options are always nice to have. Crappy troops that cost more than equivalent slightly better crappy troops is kind of a let down.

[JackAr34]

I have to say with the release of the Chaos codex, that the RnH troop choices are all just awful. Chaos cultists out of the chaos codex are cheaper than RnH cultists, and get access to legion traits, aura abilities of chaos characters, chaos strategems, and chaos psyker powers work on them. It sucks because RnH have some great elite, HQ, and heavy support options; but kitting out a battalion or brigade forces you to take suboptimal troops.

 

Malefic Lords look great. Marauders look really good for 6 points. Cheap heavy support options are always nice to have. Crappy troops that cost more than equivalent slightly better crappy troops is kind of a let down.

 

I second this. Taking Militia Squads, after the release of the Chaos Codex, is sadly just silly. Cultists from the Chaos book cost the same, have the same armor, and have better stats. Legion traits kick them way over the value of Militia squads. 

 

Ironically, having Chaos Codex cultists available does give us a better way to efficiently make an 'all' RnH detachment.

[Akrim]

Conversely though CSM Cultists dont have access Enforcers which is the main reason i take them (to protect my artillery to the last man).

 

That and they can pack more flamers than Cultists.

[JackAr34]

Conversely though CSM Cultists dont have access Enforcers which is the main reason i take them (to protect my artillery to the last man).

 

That and they can pack more flamers than Cultists.

 

Assuming you exclusively want bodies and flamers, then I can't argue with you there.

 

Thinking about Chaos Cultists, taking either Word Bearers or Black Legion traits gives a bump to cultist LD to keep them in the fight longer. Its not the guarantee offered by the Enforcer, but its not unworkable. Plus the Tide of Traitors stratagem to be able to bring a whole unit of Cultists back from the brink to full to meat shield again. Points wise, you'd be trading the opportunity for a pair of cheaper flamers for better BS/WS, hopefully allowing them to do some of the same damage the two flamers might.

[JackAr34]

 

Conversely though CSM Cultists dont have access Enforcers which is the main reason i take them (to protect my artillery to the last man).

 

That and they can pack more flamers than Cultists.

 

Assuming you exclusively want bodies and flamers, then I can't argue with you there.

 

Thinking about Chaos Cultists, taking either Word Bearers or Black Legion traits gives a bump to cultist LD to keep them in the fight longer. Its not the guarantee offered by the Enforcer, but its not unworkable. Plus the Tide of Traitors stratagem to be able to bring a whole unit of Cultists back from the brink to full to meat shield again. Points wise, you'd be trading the opportunity for a pair of cheaper flamers for better BS/WS, hopefully allowing them to do some of the same damage the two flamers might.

 

 

Posting on myself. Reading through the rules over the weekend, I realized that I'm incorrect about legion traits on cultists in RnH armies. Unless you have a "Chaos Space Marine" Detachment, which comprises of units only from the CSM Codex, you don't get legion traits. This makes the boon of CSM Cultists much lower compare to RnH ones.

[Perigrin]

I am of the opinion that the R&H Troops are pretty rubbish, but i can see a use in a massive horde of mutants with an Enforcer. Militia with Flamers can do okish damage, but the 5+ BS is atrocious for any other weapon. Cultists are bland Guardsmen with less weapon options and no access to orders. Mutants at least have Mutations and numbers on their side, and make a nice tarpit, as in this edition without templates  chewing through 50 wounds is pretty hard. Honestly, R&H is better served just filling out Vanguard detachments for infantry, as Marauders are damn good infantry in about any role, and out HQ's are so dirt cheap that it is barely even a tax. If you had to do a Battalion or Brigade, I would either take mutants due to the low price, or Chaos Space Marines as they are much tankier and there is nothing stopping you.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Perigrin

[Akrim]

I am of the opinion that the R&H Troops are pretty rubbish, but i can see a use in a massive horde of mutants with an Enforcer. Militia with Flamers can do okish damage, but the 5+ BS is atrocious for any other weapon. Cultists are bland Guardsmen with less weapon options and no access to orders. Mutants at least have Mutations and numbers on their side, and make a nice tarpit, as in this edition without templates  chewing through 50 wounds is pretty hard. Honestly, R&H is better served just filling out Vanguard detachments for infantry, as Marauders are damn good infantry in about any role, and out HQ's are so dirt cheap that it is barely even a tax. If you had to do a Battalion or Brigade, I would either take mutants due to the low price, or Chaos Space Marines as they are much tankier and there is nothing stopping you.

Definitely. I did a Brigade in my last batrep, the 12CP was real nice. By and large our troops will die in droves to almost any kind of firepower. But if they are spending shooting on them thats preferred to my other slot choices. One other great synergy i found was Chimeras/Hellhounds; lead the assault with the tanks. Way less overwatch casualties that way.

[Tamika]

For Militia if you take a Heavy Weapons team does it count as two or one people?  Battlescribe is forcing me to take 1 Champion, 8 Militia and a Heavy Weapons Team for a minimum squad...

[Nurgleprobe]

Yea I'm pretty sure that's a "bug" / haven't been fixed. 

[Tamika]

Good because I wanted to do Militia with mortars as troops for my brigade. They seem really good for denying deep strike and the range on that mortar for the points seems really good

[micahwc]

I am starting to think renegade militia may be the best troop option, simply because I think they may be the best for bubble wrapping the big guns. Give them a vox caster and 4 flamers in a group of 20. It's like 113 points. Covenant of tzeentch to overwatch on 5s and a command squad with command vox to give them good leadership. Alternately do the same thing with groups of 10 and 2 flamers.

 

Any shooting they get to do outside overwatch is gravy, but you are really bringing them to dare your opponent to assault them. Any assaulting unit takes 4d6 flamer hits and 32 overwatch shots on 5s. Withdraw from combat on your turn closer to your big guns, and make them charge you again.

 

All the while your heavy quad launchers are dropping death everywhere.

Edited September 3, 2017 by micahwc

[Akrim]

Im beginning to think likewise Micah, Coven of Nurgle does pretty much nothing, Khorne is ok. Tzeentch is looking more appealingto me too

[micahwc]

What about the idea of 10 renegade militia in a chimera with 2 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber? It's 135 points. Sit it on an objective and shoot 9 times per turn, let the infantry out if you need to.

 

Gives you three troop choices that are not completely useless for 400 points, and fills out a battalion nicely.