Scouts in 8th (aka my Sniper Scouts won't be used)

[Brother_Mike]

Hey all.

 

Since 8th has dropped, I've been doing a lot of listcrafting to figure out what units I want to buy for my Blood Angels in 8th edition. And I've been pretty pleased with how our BA specific units work in this edition, especially coupled with the multitude of different detachments to squeeze out as many command points as possible.

 

That said, I'm pretty disappointed with how our previous go-tos for troops choices are working out this edition, both on paper & in-game. Specifically, how sniper scouts aren't the cheap objective sitters they used to be. Sure, camo cloaks have always been a contextually expensive investment for scouts, but sniper rifles this edition cost a lot for what little effect they have on the game. Couple that with the boost to the stock equipment (rules changes to close combat weapons, pistol rules, astartes shotguns), and scouts with no costly upgrades seem like the new flavor of 8th.

 

That said, I've been pretty heavily favoring the idea of getting a 10-man shotgun scout squad. Str5 hits is the new flavor this edition, and such easy access to wounding on 3s on average seems too good not to go for.

 

The following is an example squad:

9 Scouts with Astartes Shotguns
Scout Sergeant with Astartes Shotgun and Power Axe
Total: 115 points

It's cheap, has lots of bodies and it brings a lot of str 5 at close range. All things any BA army could use more of.

 

What are your opinions on scouts for BA in 8th? And more generally, our troops choices for BA in 8th. Do we have cheap (points wise) objective sitters like we used to? Or is that era over for us?

 

 

[Charlo]

Snipers have a great niche in targeting characters that aren't the closest unit and applying Mortal wounds to them. That in itself is quite powerful!

 

Shotguns are nice as they have decent dakka and you don't really give up anything in this edition for not having a pistol and knife etc.

 

My advice however would be if you aren't desperate to wait for our codex.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I'm not a super competitive player so I don't ever really get heavy into point comparisons per max efficiency etc etc... but I've been using Sniper scouts and combat Blade scouts and they've both been pretty good actually.

 

The extra attack from the combat blade and the 9"-from deployment makes these guys pretty good, especially if I can time it right so Dante or some other HQ is nearby... they were eating Dark Angels tactical marines for lunch one day.

 

The sniper guys with cloaks are pricey, but the way terrain works now, getting a 2+ with this unit is as good as it gets, and that's not bad for objective camping. They never seem to kill their points back, but they do put Mortal wounds on stuff, which means they are a huge perceived threat. My opponents have focused sooo much on these guys, and the 2+ save keeps them alive and tanking more shots.

[Vel'Cona]

If you don't think Sniper Rifles being able to inject the odd Mortal Wound to ANY target is relevant, then you haven't been using them enough, or enough of them.  Also, things are about to change for Scouts in general when C: SM lands, via Strategems.  I'd say not to write them off too soon.

[Karhedron]

If you think Sniper Scouts are expensive look at Eldar Rangers, they cost even more and have S3/T3 with a 5+ save and basically the same armament. Makes Marines look a positive bargain by comparison.

 

I am quite interested in the possibility of BP/CW Scouts with a Priest for a bucket of cheap S5 attacks.

 

As far as Troops go, it depends how much you want those extra CPs. If the new Marine codex is anything to go by, some of the new Stratagems look quite good but are hungry on CPs. I can see Battalions becoming more popular so Troop tax may once again be a thing. Also, Troops will be good if we get "Defenders of Humanity" in our codex (basically Troops get ObjSec back).

 

I am warming to the idea of Intercessors as Troops. 100 points for 10 wounds for holding backfield objectives. Bolt rifles have longer range and AP-1 compared to regular bolt guns which is not too shabby. Put them in cover and your opponent will have to work quite hard to dislodge them.

[Panzer]

If you think Sniper Scouts are bad look at T'au Sniper Drones. Those don't even deal Mortal wounds and only hit on a 5+ without outside support. :D

[Fallenturtle]

I love my sniper scouts.. So far, they've taken out a storm raven(took the last 3 mortal wounds off of it) , a death comany dread(didn't come out of the blown up storm raven therefor it's a kill to the scouts :) ) , Dante, a chaos lord, Shadowsun, and a hammerhead gunship.

 

 

for plinking wounds off things and finishing them off.. they are amazing.. plus they are very tough to dislodge out of cover.  I've had opponents send troops over to my snipers in order to deal with them, leaving objectives free for the rest of ym army.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I don't think sniper scouts suck at all, but I prefer the other scout flavors more in the lists I build.

Looking at just projecting mortal wounds at 90 points for 5 with cloaks I can pay for most of a jump librarian. 

There is definately something to be said for the attention snipers draw tho and somebody may need to camp the flank etc.

 

Bolter scouts are good for shallow objectives, but there usually seem to be better options for the role when list making because armour weapons etc.

 

CQC scouts are very worthy (especially for us Sanguinary types), but they benefit some list designs more than others commonly for me so far.

The urge to amp them up and support them lends itself well to commited assault tactics.

That can be good, but usually means moar points and you have to attack. (But you may be doing that anyhow)

 

Shotgun scouts are the best all rounder troop choice in my opinion currently.

Cheap flexible and very effective. I keep going back since my early lists.

Double Barrel and charge still works for assault AND they can hang back some to play run and gun midfield instead on the table.

 

Command points are definately gonna be important and all of these are a cheap way to get more decidedly good troops.

 

Brigade hmmm... Maybe?

Scouts backed with ASM, Devastators, some good HQ and 2 man command squads perhaps. Dunno.

Don't build your entire army around them prolly.

 

The sweet thing about 8th is there does not seem to be a best option =)

Edited July 26, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Boudan]

I'll arrange my game write up more formally elsewhere, but I found 3 squads of Shotgun scouts (x5) to be really strong.

 

I previously read the remarks of Crimson Ghost IX about the unit and he's definitely on to something.

 

The 55 point unit creates pockets of deepstrike denial, deploy in the neutral zone, and strength 5 attacks at 6" from opponent units means even against MEQ you're often wounding on 3s without too much effort. Especially in an environment where tactical squads often don't seem to carry their weight, I'm happy with the shotgun scout unit.

[Frater Cornelius]

Tried snipers already in both competitive and casual environment, as well as played against them once. The only good thing they brought was to block Tyranid deep strike double move genestealer rushes. The rifles were useless. Sure, sometimes they hit a few MW and force a few saves, but at that price I expect a bit more consistency. Naked Scout are pretty solid because they are cheap. Shotguns are solid to force saves. MSU Tacs in Razors are probably the best choice right now. Snipers are overhyped and overcosted in my eyes.

 

The thing that made me stop using them was the fact that for 20pts more than 5 Scouts with Snipers and Camo pants I get 5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolters. Same range, far better AP, twice the wounds, same save in cover, better outside, better in melee and only lose the random MW and ability to shoot characters. Sold.

 

If the MW weren't so random, then maybe. Right now it is literally luck-dependent hit or miss and I really dislike that.

[Panzer]

Yeah overall Sniper still suffer from the same problem they did in 7th. Instead of being reliable they rely on randomness to do their job...which pretty much goes against anything what a sniper is supposed to be. ^^

[Arkhanist]

Sniper scouts can put wounds on linchpin characters from range. Sure, they're gonna be pretty crap against a hive tyrant or marine HQ, but IG conscript blobs are totally reliant on their commissar to stop them melting away fast to morale and platoon commanders to order them. And they're not that tough. Nid synapse creatures can also be a good target, and some eldar characters. So it depends on what you're fighting. 

 

That said, without chapter tactics right now you might as well take ratlings or sniper IG special weapon teams which are a lot cheaper.

[Frater Cornelius]

Sniper scouts can put wounds on linchpin characters from range. Sure, they're gonna be pretty crap against a hive tyrant or marine HQ, but IG conscript blobs are totally reliant on their commissar to stop them melting away fast to morale and platoon commanders to order them. And they're not that tough. Nid synapse creatures can also be a good target, and some eldar characters. So it depends on what you're fighting. 

 

That said, without chapter tactics right now you might as well take ratlings or sniper IG special weapon teams which are a lot cheaper.

 

IMO you are better off shooting the units. A unit without a buff characters can still do damage. A buff character with a crippled/dead unit is useless.

[Arkhanist]

Obviously you still need to take on the unit with other units in your army. But it's a lot easier to cripple a big IG conscript blob with their Ld of 4. Say you kill 5 in a unit. They will lose a further 1+D6 to morale. The more you kill, the faster the remainder run, you can easily double your shooting impact that way. With a commissar nearby? They have a Ld of 8, and can only lose 1 model max to a morale test thanks to Summary Execution. Ork warbosses perform a similar role for ork boys. Marines don't have much of a problem with morale tests, but don't discount its impact on some other armies.

[Brother_Mike]

After reading everyones replies, it seems like an even split for what i was saying (costly and unreliable) and i rolled tons of 6s to wound in all the games ive played.

It sounds like for those of us with low luck stats, intercessors would be the go-to objective sitters, given their flexibility, reliability and good stat line. With shotgun and combat knife scouts being solid choices for aggressive BA lists.

I think ill pick up some shotgun scouts and see how it goes

Edited July 29, 2017 by Brother_Mike

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if the mathhammer rules against sniper scouts, but I just wanted to point out what I discovered, if you're shooting at units or chaf you're doing it wrong - other units are way better at this.

 

Always, always shoot at characters. In 8th it's actually pretty difficult to keep characters totally hidden the way cover works now. It's had a big psychological effect in my games so far, and with cloaks in cover these guys are tough, which is good because they draw a lot of fire. I'm not ready to ditch them yet anyway.

[Warsmith Uveron]

Always, always shoot at characters. In 8th it's actually pretty difficult to keep characters totally hidden the way cover works now. It's had a big psychological effect in my games so far, and with cloaks in cover these guys are tough, which is good because they draw a lot of fire. I'm not ready to ditch them yet anyway.

 

Also note with the rise of large Blobs being held in place by a single Character,  the ability to hit that lone Character has a huge advantage. I plan on keeping my 5 sniper scouts on most lists. 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

So I was looking at the new Alpha Legion operatives deployment rules and when they set up.

Noticed Scout loose bubblewrap is even better with that in mind.

 

They deploy first for Board Control n stuff =)

 

Keep those zerkers on your side of the table Mr Alpha Legion sneaky man...

[tychobi]

I have about 10 games of 8th under my belt and gotta stand up for my snipers. They have been a steady and very useful element to my 1k 4 wins 0 loss Fate of Konor list.  

 

While the are not great at the role that "sniping" plays in terms of killing off key characters they do draw fire well, are hard to dislodge with anti infantry weapons, and can be effective vs all targets.  This last part keeps me fielding my sniper scouts as they have put damage on all sorts of heavy equipment for me.   Point price may be a tad high ( I would buff sniper rifles with +1 str or ap in a perfect world) but they survive very well and keep putting out small damage all over the map. They are a very static element to my otherwise very dynamic play style.  They are a distraction, not an integral part of my army, most of the time acting alone and unsupported.  Great sculpts as well in the gw kit.  

 

 

5 scouts with cloaks, 4 sniper rifles, 1 missile launcher is my load out.  I put em down early and high up on an objective or some place out of the way.  

 

They have their place and suit their "role" but that said i also field msu bolt pistol + combat knife mixed with combat knife + chain sword(extra choppy!) and shotgun scouts as well.  The heavy bolter in my choppy scouts has a ridiculous kill ratio.  I recently had to upgrade the sarge with a plasma pistol for killing 3 ork bikers in one game all by himself!  Took him four rounds of combat but hey.  I like me some scouts and find that all their flavors do work.  

[SM1981]

When I field them I play squads of 5 and have both squads shoot at the same target character. Weight of dice seems to be their best friend. The additional mortal wounds on 6's, plus the wounds those hits would have caused hurts low wound characters a lot (less than 5). Pick your targets, poor the fire into them, and sniper scouts are effective. Are the cost effective? That's for a better mathematician for me to answer.

[Indefragable]

Used them in a 3k game and they got a single Mortal Wound on a Dev Centurion squad. They got a decent number of wounds but 2+ armor does its thing.

 

I deployed them on an OBJ off to the left flank on their own and a combination of poor line of sight and half his army being within firing range 1st turn meant they didn't get a second chance. I think even a mortal wound or two on key enemies can be big.