Treadheads in 8th?

[Withershadow]

Depends on what regiment you pick, but Catachan like Conquerors, Tallarn like Punishers, and everyone likes Executioners. The remaining Russ options are kind of meh.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So are Manticores any good in 8th? I want something to emulate Soviet Katyushas, up to snuff?.

 

If it makes any difference, I'm already planning on taking some Basilisks as well.

[librisrouge]

So are Manticores any good in 8th? I want something to emulate Soviet Katyushas, up to snuff?.

 

If it makes any difference, I'm already planning on taking some Basilisks as well.

Both of them are tops, especially with the Catachan doctrine.

[MrZakalwe]

Depends on what regiment you pick, but Catachan like Conquerors, Tallarn like Punishers, and everyone likes Executioners. The remaining Russ options are kind of meh.

Annihilators are pretty good for the cost with a hull mounted lascannon and the Cadian doctrine. If they are still and something else has wounded the target first you can get 5 lascannon shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s.

 

Just a damned shame you can't get an Annihilator command tank.

[Withershadow]

I don't think 4 lascannon shots competes with 2D6 battlecannon or executioner shots, especially at 2x the point cost.

[Tirak]

We've done the math on this a few times...

 

Standard target is t7 3+

 

BC 152

 

2d6 shots averages 7 total. Hit 3.5. Wound 2.33. Armor save goes to 5+ so 1.556 gets through. Average off a d3 is 2 so 3.11 damage total. Heavy Bolter adds .25 wounds per turn. Efficiency stands at 45.223 points per wound.

 

Annihilator, 182pts

 

Shoots 5, hits 2.5. Wounds 1.667. Armor pen means 5/6 gets through for a total of 1.389. Average damage off a d6 is 3.5 so total is 4.861. Efficiency comes to 37.44 points per wound. The Annihilator only gets better as Cadian.

[Withershadow]

The D6 damage certainly helps push the averages, but there are also additional considerations, such as using orders/doctrines/stratagems to re-roll number of attacks from the battle cannon.  Or how to hit modifiers (both negative and positive) make higher volume weapon more effective. Or conqueror turrets being battle cannons that re-roll hits within 24" at the cost of 3 points. Or the Executioner having the same AP.  Or demolishers having same AP, more strength, same D6 damage, and averaging 4 shots against single targets and 7 vs. 5+ strong squads.

 

It's also somewhat misleading to give the annihilator the hull lascannon but not the other tank. They both can take it.

 

I assume the annihilator folks use is just hull lascannon and turret, parked as far back as possible to take advantage of range?

[Tirak]

I mislead not at all, the price of all weapons are taken into account. With hull mounted lascannon the BC comes to 4.083 wounds per turn at an efficiency of 40.163.

 

Heavy Bolter hull mounts only the BC is 3.35 wpt and the Annihilator 4.139 wpt. Efficiency that's 45.373 and 41.074.

 

Again this is doctrine isolated, but let's play the game of best doctrine for each. For BC it is Catachan, for Annihilator it is Cadia.

 

Catachan buffs average shots from 7 to 8, and Cadian brings the potential to hit up to 7/12 up from 1/2. Therefore, a Catachan BC will output 3.806 wpt with hull mounted HB at an efficiency of 39.942. The Cadian annihilator with all lascannons rolls out with 5.671 wpt at an efficiency of 32.091. Or with hull mounted HB 4.829 wpt at an efficiency of 35.206 points per wound

 

And just to drive the point home, a Cadian BC with hull mounted HB will output 3.821 wpt at an efficiency of 38.763.

 

The Battlecannon against T7 3+ is less efficient and less powerful on a strictly average basis than the Annihilator turret.

 

The most efficient turret for a Leman Russ against T7 3+ at 24in range is the Catachan Conqueror. Outputting 5.694 wpt at an efficiency of 27.22 points per wound. The reason for this startling power is clear as it combines a total shot reroll in addition to a miss reroll, combined with a low price, stealing the best from all doctrines, though at close range.

[Spyboy]

Very useful Tirak, thank you.

 

This proves mathematically that the anihilator is better then the battle cannon at antitank. The battlecannon is obviously better at anti-infantry so I guess the choice lies in pure efficiency versus versatility. At least if you are choosing between these two.

[Withershadow]

It is indeed misleading because you are giving a heavy bolter to one unit and a lascannon to the other, and count them as equivalent.  And a "strictly average" basis is of little use considering that is not how it actually plays out in game.  Re-rolling does not amount to 0.5 extra shots per attack, 1.3 wounds is only one wound, etc.  I guess it's not an option of more consistency vs. swingy.  It's a personal choice, but prefer the latter because there are so many effects and abilities to spike the averages towards high rather than low. It's always satisfying to get those 10 shots and just annihilate (no pun intended) something.

[Tirak]

It is indeed misleading because you are giving a heavy bolter to one unit and a lascannon to the other, and count them as equivalent

 

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but horse manure. I do not present them as equivalent, I present them clearly defined. Each point per wound is based off of the cost of the unit with all equipment included.

 

 

And a "strictly average" basis is of little use considering that is not how it actually plays out in game. 

 

Mathhammer gives us an idea of how the averages work out, it helps us build lists to maximize efficiency and see general trends in the effectivness of a unit against specific targets. I do not claim that the game can only be played by adhereing to mathhammer, but it does give you general trends, which allows you find statistical advantages which when combined with actual gameplay, give you an edge.

 

 

Re-rolling does not amount to 0.5 extra shots per attack,

 

You're right, it adds .75 to the attack. With that in mind, the efficiency of the Catachan BC russ with HB is 37.738ppw and 4.028wpt, still inferior to the Cadian Annihilator. And in the interesting in being fully forthright, a Catachan BC with hull mounted lascannon is 34.526ppw at 4.75wpt. Still inferior to the Annihilator, though much closer.

 

1.3 wounds is only one wound, etc.

 

This is the average, and knowing the average allows us to formulate an understanding of how a unit will perform in general. A unit that deals 1.3 wounds will consistently roll more wounds than one that deals 1 wound.

 

 

I guess it's not an option of more consistency vs. swingy.  It's a personal choice, but prefer the latter because there are so many effects and abilities to spike the averages towards high rather than low. It's always satisfying to get those 10 shots and just annihilate (no pun intended) something.

 

 

 

It absolutely is an option of consistency vs swingy. The average damage of a D3 is 2, with a range of 2. The average damage of a d6 is 3.5 with a range of 5. The standard deviation from an Annihilator is huge, whereas for a Battlecannon it is much less affected by the damage role allowing it to be more consistent. That is why I was very stringent in insisting that all values are statistically average, the deviation between turns however will be much greater for an Annihilator. 3+3/2 is an average of 3, but 1+5/2 is also an average of 3.

[Emicus]

Aye but I think a key point easily overlooked is the 'at 24inches' bit. And it's forgeworld.

 

Battle tanks have much better reach to smite the Emperors enemies! And subsequently not get smashed in melee/tied up the following turn.

 

Might factor in to a different calculation.