Vanguard Veterans: Zeal From Above

[Ciler]

The Dread was a venerable. Loadout for the Raven was twin autocannons, typhoon, hurricanes. With Helbrecht inside it was re rolling a lot of shots which gave me SO many hits every turn. Wiped out two units of Tau marker lights before unloading the dread and crusader squads which in turn wiped out a riptide, a hammerhead and the Tau warlord and plenty more. It was game over at the start of turn 3. So, it went pretty well!!

I am afraid to say that you cheated !

 

P. 183 of the rules describes transports and reads :

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any

way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities

that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst

the unit that has the ability is embarked.

[Stemplar]

Oh no!!! Didn't see that. Okay ... so Helbrecht in a Raven or LRC is off the table. Guess I gotta get him within 6 inches on the outside. Disembark early or march him alongside or...

[Gerhard]

I am still in the camp of the 10x plasma pistols, a power weapon (I use an axe), and chainswords for everyone else. Powerful alpha strike with the plasma pistols and potential bonus points if you make a charge. The weight of attacks is sufficiently strong to validate not wasting the points throwing all kinds of gear on them, when everything is super expensive now.

 

That's also a good point... the only issue I have with this is where I can manage to find 10 plasma pistols.

 

I'll add a few stormshields in because I simply want to use them (custom templar ones from Spellcrow) but would still need around 5-6 plasma pistols and the Vanguard sets only have one each.

[Ciler]

Oh no!!! Didn't see that. Okay ... so Helbrecht in a Raven or LRC is off the table. Guess I gotta get him within 6 inches on the outside. Disembark early or march him alongside or...

Considering the Raven's movement, you can disembark T2 just about anywhere you want (assuming said raven survives the hail of fire it's going to take T1). That's what I've done so far.

[Brother Talarian]

Would VV with dual chainswords have 4 attacks each? 2 base 1+1CC and 1+1CC?

[Lysere]

Would VV with dual chainswords have 4 attacks each? 2 base 1+1CC and 1+1CC?

Yep, 5 on the sergeant as well. Get them in combat with Grimaldus nearby and watch the enemy die to weight of attacks.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I am still in the camp of the 10x plasma pistols, a power weapon (I use an axe), and chainswords for everyone else. Powerful alpha strike with the plasma pistols and potential bonus points if you make a charge. The weight of attacks is sufficiently strong to validate not wasting the points throwing all kinds of gear on them, when everything is super expensive now.

 

I caution this approach brother. I tried something similar very recently. I have a friend that plays Tyranids, and in our first game of 8th edition I used the Vanguard Veteran plasma pistol bomb on him, to devastating effect. We played our 2nd game just this past Sunday, and I knew that he would be cautious of this tactic. Surely enough, he had a plan to ensure a unit like this could not be used to full effect.

 

Here's what he did-

 

He deployed two massive creatures in his deployment zone towards the back with long range shooting attacks that are rather devastating, with a creature that causes a -1 to hit debuff. Not only this, but these important units were screened by smaller bugs. My opponent's positioning was pristine in that, I had to stay 9'' away from the screening units, but doing this caused me to be out of the 12'' range of the plasma pistols my assault squad was carrying. I was very glad that I didn't invest the Vanguard Vet plasma nuke unit at this point. 

 

I could hold them back until the rest of my forces could clear the screen, but doing this would have essentially set a potent unit a turn, or potentially two turns, back. So this Vanguard Plasma nuke strategy is really a one trick pony, your opponent won't fall for it a second time. 

 

This is, I think, where the new Plasma Exterminator Inceptors would shine. They are expensive, risky, and purely an alpha strike unit. Your opponent will focus them as soon as they drop down, and when you invest a Jump Captain in the unit in addition to their cost, the cost of this strategy will rival that of a Land Raider. It really depends on how much you need the Alpha Strike. 

[Gendo]

The thing with deepstrikes is that with our chapter tactics & stratagem options, failing one is difficult.

 

I mean, suppose you do it and you roll a 5 on two dices. Use our chapter tactic and reroll it. Suppose you hit a 7 but this time it's a 5 and a 2. Use a stratagem to reroll the 2 and get a 4, and it's passed. There are quite a few "outs" on a missed charge.

 

I'm facing a similar dilemma though. I currently have 10 Vanguards ready to be kitted and I am serious doubting how to kit them. I have six awesome custom Templar Shields that I really want to use... so that'll have to be the case. The only question is: do I kit them with Thunder Hammers, Chainswords or LC's.

 

RIght now I'm leaning to making a badass squad with 1 Relic Blade, 5 TH's, 4 LC's and literally no Guns.... 

 

Thoughts? Need some help :-). 

 

Can you reroll a reroll? I was denied that last game and failed the charge with my Vets against a flyer.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Pretty sure you cannot re-roll a re-roll. 

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I thought about the same thing, but there is wrotek that you can't re-roll re-rolled dice

[Firepower]

I believe the old law of no re-rolling re-rolls still exists, but I can't point to a page in the BRB.

 

Regardless, we do have the option to choose between rolling both dice with our CT or just 1 with a CP.  Just have to choose wisely.  And unless I'm mistaken, you can only expend one CP per phase, so think carefully about which charge you really need to happen.

[Gendo]

I believe the old law of no re-rolling re-rolls still exists, but I can't point to a page in the BRB.

 

Regardless, we do have the option to choose between rolling both dice with our CT or just 1 with a CP.  Just have to choose wisely.  And unless I'm mistaken, you can only expend one CP per phase, so think carefully about which charge you really need to happen.

 

It's in the core rules, thought OP was referencing some faq or something special about CT and Stratagems.

[Ebon Hand]

Page 178, in the side bar. And it's as Firepower says, except you can spend as many command points as you want, it's just that in matched play you can't use the same strategem in the same phase more than once.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I believe the old law of no re-rolling re-rolls still exists, but I can't point to a page in the BRB.

 

Regardless, we do have the option to choose between rolling both dice with our CT or just 1 with a CP.  Just have to choose wisely.  And unless I'm mistaken, you can only expend one CP per phase, so think carefully about which charge you really need to happen.

You can use a stratagem once a phase but you can stack as many different stratagems as you want (as long as they don't reroll rerolls or similar).

[Ciler]

So, I tried the 10 man VV with power axes and storm shield, and they performed adequately. During three turns, they :

• knocked 8 HP from a chaos rhino
• killed a squad of 20 pox zombies
• killed 5 noise marines
• and tanked all of the above plus a nurgle daemon prince and a nurgle drone.

They had a captain and a lieutenant for aura around and ended with 3 marines on the table.

 

The damage output isn't amazing, but satisfactory for a 255 pts unit. This was the 2nd week Konor mission, so not dying was imortant.

 

On a side note, my EC dueled Lucius on the side. Well, dueled... Executed, more to the point.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Ciler

[SydonianDragoon404]

I tried out the double chainsword VV loadout today, 9 man squad and gave the Sarge a thunder hammer. They charged into a Grey Knight Strike Squad, those GKs were absolutely dead to rights. I inflicted something like 20 wounds on that 5 man squad, and my opponent only failed 2 of his 3+ saves. They retaliated, I lost a couple veterans, and then he used a terminator banner bearer to come in and try to save them. I eventually wiped the squad after a couple more close combat phases, but there weren't a whole lot of them left. 

 

I don't think that was at all the unit's fault though. That GK squad was dead to rights like I said, my opponent just rolled hot on his saves. I will be trying them again soon. 

[Ciler]

20 wounds is way above average though.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I had a Lieutenant nearby to re-roll some 1's to wound. I don't think you realize just how many attacks 4 per veteran is. 32 attacks, okay maybe 20 is me remembering there being more than there actually was but it was still an above average wound roll. And then my opponent just saves nearly all of them. That was a lot of dice. Guess that's the tradeoff for using an AP - weapon. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Aegir_Einarsson]

But in this case is better to have re-roll to wound than to hit I think?

[Ciler]

I had a Lieutenant nearby to re-roll some 1's to wound. I don't think you realize just how many attacks 4 per veteran is. 32 attacks, okay maybe 20 is me remembering there being more than there actually was but it was still an above average wound roll. And then my opponent just saves nearly all of them. That was a lot of dice. Guess that's the tradeoff for using an AP - weapon. 

I quite realise it, it's 36 attacks (plus the hammer hits). But with a 3+ chance to hit and a 4+ chance to wound, even when rerolling 1s, 20 actual wounds is still a fairly high and not statistically representative outcome. In short, both you and your opponent got extremely lucky.

 

But in this case is better to have re-roll to wound than to hit I think?

You only reroll 1s either way, so it makes no difference.

[Rogal]

I've noticed a few people mentioning the 1CP re-roll for charges. This is wasted on our Templars as they get to re-roll both dice with the chapter tactics. The 1CP re-roll must be used for two dice on the charge roll as it is a 2d6 roll. The latest FAQ states:

"ERRATA Page 178 – Re-rolls Change this paragraph to read: ‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

[Ciler]

I've noticed a few people mentioning the 1CP re-roll for charges. This is wasted on our Templars as they get to re-roll both dice with the chapter tactics. The 1CP re-roll must be used for two dice on the charge roll as it is a 2d6 roll. The latest FAQ states:

 

"ERRATA Page 178 – Re-rolls Change this paragraph to read: ‘Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’

Actually, no. The 1 CP stratagem specifies explicitely  that you re-roll one dice, not the whole roll, and therefore falls under the "unless otherwise stated" of the FaQ.

 

The exact wording is "You can re-roll any single dice". This is quite explicit.

 

By comparison, here's the night lord legion trait :

They clearly specify "a single [hit] roll". Note the difference between roll and dice.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Quick small offtop. When i make heroic intervention, and i want joint combat do i need to be in base contact directly with enemy model or just in 1 inch, or it is enough to be within inch grom a model that od on base contact with enemy model?

[Ciler]

Same rules as general close combat, you need to be within 1". The [within 1" of a model itself within 1"] rule applies only inside a unit. 

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Ok thx for info:), but nice thing is that you don't have to joint the fight, just have free 3 or 6 inch move on opponent turn:).

 

And od I'm correct there is written that any od yours characters can do it, not just the nearest to charged Unity:)