Are Neophytes worth it?

[HenricusTyranicus]

So looking over Neophytes this edition as compared to last edition, I'm not sure I can justify taking them, unless I HAVE to take an 11 or greater man squad. in 7th, they represented a saving of 4 PPM. Quite decent. Now, though, that's become two PPM. Shotguns are kinda cool now, and can do some decent work against, say, vehicles up close. Against infantry, they risk making the charge too long. Ultimately, the question I have to ask is whether it's worth 2 points for a better armor save. And in almost all circumstances, the answer is yes. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Not really, they're over priced since they're paying for infiltrate for some stupid reason. Being able to shave off the odd point is still useful, as is taking 10+ squads but otherwise I would want the better save.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

IMO they're still worth a go. They are after all 2 pts cheaper, when you stretch that over several squads it adds up. I like the idea of 5+5 crusader squads tooled up for close range fire fights (read: flamers and shotguns) hopping out of a rhino, doing serious damage with shooting and cleaning house with a reliable, rerollable charge.

Also when you get shot at by ap-3/4 i'd rather remove an 11pt neophyte than a 13 pt initiate (i never roll a 6 when i need it :P).

[Kisada]

Cheap initiates would have helped bring back the black tide feel ... but I guess that would make the already superior crusader squads too good?

[balordazul]

The issue I have found with them they are the major draw back for moral test.  In CC we want to take the wounds on them but we are now stacking up our losses.  

 

Be careful about moral test and try to get things that will help LD or auto pass tests moral tests.  

[Firepower]

Yeah, can't really say I see much use or sense behind taking them in any serious number (or some times at all).  The bargain on points is much smaller, the ablative wounds are actually dangerous rather than helpful with Battle Shock, and with units able to share transports now I can fill out those LRCs with 3 x 5 Initiates armed to the teeth instead, bringing more gubs and pouring more Troop selections into filling out the detachments.

 

I'd use them if I was trying to footslog up the field with a few squads (with support from Ld buffs from somewhere), but currently slapping down an LRC and a Stormraven to bring in the boys is far more appealing.  I can't overlook the LRC like I have in the past now that it actually brings some real pain to the table.  Odd thing to complain about, really. :lol:

[Medjugorje]

I dont take them on smaller Units,.. but if i play more then ten Initiates then 2-4 of them. But surely, we dont need them.

[Marshal Laeroth]

So...I don't understand the extreme aversion to having larger squad sizes or utilizing Neophytes. Battleshock isn't even much of a thing due to ATSKNF and/or Chaplains. If things are going to do enough damage to your units to cause significant battleshock casualties, you're just as likely to lose an entire squad to that damage. In all of the games I've played, all the battle reports I've seen...the battleshock does not do enough to matter imo.

 

If you validate not using larger squads for other reasons, fine. But don't base it on battleshock.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Marshal Laeroth

[Kisada]

Could it also be that a 15 man blob looks scarier than smaller squads?

 

The drawback of the smaller squads is obviously having to make multiple charges and having to multiple units in the fight phase to possibly alternate with the opponent's units.  Possibility of the opponent pulling casualties in a way to deny a squad their chance to attack.

 

But then on the plus side ... extra sword brothers, special weapons, and heavy weapons.  Also extra chances to make that charge to lock up a unit and deal some damage vs just 2 chances to make the charge with 1 big unit.

[Medjugorje]

try to look at that in a different way. If you have a unit which have a scout stateline and you need just 2 points for an better save,... would you not buy it?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

try to look at that in a different way. If you have a unit which have a scout stateline and you need just 2 points for an better save,... would you not buy it?

 

Depends really... if I'd rather have that Power Weapon than 2 Initiates then I'd swap the Initiates for Neophytes for the 4 points going into a Power Weapon...

for Power Level games, Initiates all the way since Power Weapons don't cause Power Levels...

[Schlitzaf]

When you buy Neo/Init combo you are essentially buying 12pt Marines. While the 4+ means they die easier to things like Autocannons, Plasma Etc, nothing is forcing you take saves on your Neophytes and on the offense Neo's are just as good as Marines.

 

So take saves on Neo's that don't Rend and saves that do Rend take them on Initaite, atleast during shooting. Once Combat is joined you'd rather have the durability so take Rending saves on Neophytes (through for the same logic you could take saves on Marines still). Instead of seeing Neo's as 2 Point Cheaper Inits with Worse Sv (and LD) see them as 12-14 point saving per a squad. I personally am running 2 Squads of 14 right now. And sense I am running equal Neo/Init saving 28 points. For context, that is one of of folllowing: 4 Plasma Pistols, 8 Power Swords/Mauls, 2 Inits and StormBolter, 2 Pairs of Lighting Claws and Cenobytes, nearly a full Rattling Squad, almost 3 Heavy Bolters, 2 PowerFists and 1 Power Sword/Maul, and so on and so forth.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Mordian Glory]

I am still new to Black Templars so take my observations with a pinch of salt.

 

I have come from IG where squeezing every point was essential and there was no room for any fat, a mindset that is good for any army. Neophytes fit this mindset perfectly, How I see it is that half a squad is always going to die before they achieve their goal, so to have the ability for half your marines to be cheaper by a few points is great, as they were kinda already written off.

 

Imagine if IG could take an infantry squad where the lasgun guys could be conscripts (so you would have a heavy weapon team, special weapon, sgt and then 6 conscripts in 1 squad). Every IG player would do that as those 6 lasgun guys are just there to be wounds for the heavy hitters in the squad. it might only save 5-10 points per squad, but over the whole army it adds up.

 

In Black Templar terms, Neophytes are the cannon fodder that eat it first, so the Power/Heavy/Special weapons can go to town on the enemy and all those saved points will add up in the end (especially if you are running Black Tide like me!)

[Ebon Hand]

Mordian you are spot on in your analysis. I've always been a strong believer in Neophytes to shave points. Even a 6 point Hunter Killer Missile can make a huge difference to a close combat Black Templars army. Sure they aren't as cheap as they used to be but the ability to put the nasty melta, plasma, or best of all, mortal wounds on them is pretty good.

 

I have to echo Marshal Laeroth's comments on battle shock. I have yet to lose a marine to it, mainly because of Chaplains and ATSKNF. Losing 6 from a 9 man squad in one round is the closest I've come so far, and I just needed a 3 or less with a reroll (Chaplain was nearby). If they had done more wounds the squad would been pretty much wiped out anyway.

 

I wouldn't exactly run 20 man Crusaders out in the open without Cenobites and Chaplain support, but ATSKNF and proper LD buffing does take a lot of the bite out of battle shock for us.

 

Big squads, or I should say, squads with big footprints can really increase their threat range with multicharges. It's a bit hard to quantify but I think there is a place for big squads when positioning matters in this edition.

 

I haven't ran any big foot slogging squads yet, but I've noticed my bike squads and Terminators can split their charge pretty far. I've also seen Tyranids with pretty wide charges with their big squads.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Quick maths: Initiates cost 1.18 neophytes while being 1.16 as resilient. So Neophytes are mathematically superior :P (Especially once you consider they shoot and fight a 100% equal except for weapon options). This gets even better/worse when taking into account ap-4 weaponry, where Initiates have literally no advantage over the youngest brothers. (However rare that may be :P)

[Gendo]

Been using them but can't say they are worth it with my squads shrinking in numbers, with a 3+ save you get at least a 6+ in the majority of cases, 4+ it's much worst.

I'm not worried about losing LD test as i still didn't fail one but I need the bodies alive as they drop faster than ever.

 

I could just take the saves on the Initiates but as I often kit them out I haven't got many to spare, over a 10 man squad will be two...

 

Maybe include 1 or 2 to soak up mortal wounds but it still doesn't make much sense unless you get the points saving from running 20 man squads and at that point you also get the benefit of the smaller base and get more guys into combat.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Gendo

[Firepower]

Well on the topic of morale issues due to Neophytes, I've run into a bit of a problem.  I can't find ATSKNF in the new Codex. :lol:

[Ciler]

Well on the topic of morale issues due to Neophytes, I've run into a bit of a problem.  I can't find ATSKNF in the new Codex.

Page 131, ypu had me doubting for a second. I mean that would have been one HELL of a mistake !!

[Firepower]

Suppose I could've looked at any single datasheet and seen the page reference, but that would've been the smart thing to do. :P

[Gendo]

I've changed my mind about Neophytes, I've been living in a lie the whole time thinking a 25mm = 1" but it's less than an inch which means...we Combat now Brothers

 

Edit: At least in larger squads in which you can have the whole first rank made up of them.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Gendo

[Kilamandaros]

Don't run them in crusader squads but do like to run a squad of neophytes on their own infiltrating. Gets some early board control, they can jump on an objective etc. The new codex also explains that Templars do send squads of Neophytes into battle without accompanying Initiates to prove their mettle so works in the fluff too.

[Firepower]

Don't run them in crusader squads but do like to run a squad of neophytes on their own infiltrating. Gets some early board control, they can jump on an objective etc. The new codex also explains that Templars do send squads of Neophytes into battle without accompanying Initiates to prove their mettle so works in the fluff too.

 

They said that in 6th, which was nonsensical.  They dropped it from 7th, which was a good decision.  And now they brought it back.  

 

There are ways to justify such a thing in fluff, if you think hard enough on it.  The rationale given in the dex, however, is garbage.

 

Ugh, why did they have to bring that fluff blurb back 

 

*steers things back on topic* 

 

Playing a game today (gasp!) and bringing mixed squads.  Time to see how they do, and how Tempalrs do in 8th generally...lead by the guidance of a cantankerous old Chaplain who spends far more time in the reclusiam (painting desk) than strategy meetings. :teehee:

[Ebon Hand]

I'm going to be running 2 squads with Neophytes today, one with the full 10 and 10.

 

The Neophytes as scouts thing was always something I was torn on. In the 4th edition Codex, our infiltrators were Sword Brothers but they were too expensive to fulfill a scouting role (I tried to make them work but that was just my experience). This led to us not really using infiltration.

 

But shouldn't a well operating war machine have some sort of covert ops and scouting?

 

I also recall reading a lore piece in the Black Templars issue of white dwarf about a Neophyte ranging out on his own and finding a potential candidate to join the Black Templars. He was chastised and told to remember his humility by his initiate for thinking he had the skills to judge another. I don't think it exactly counts as being a scout but it's definitely an example of Neophytes being out on their own but still reporting back to their initiate.

 

Once we got access to scout squads, I won't lie, I started using them immediately as objective holders and harassment. I think it would make more sense to have an initiate in recon power armor or scout armor leading these "neophyte commando" squads as I've heard them called. Maybe it's one of their trials before they ascend to Initiate?

[Marshal Arthur]

In Crusaders of Dorn there's a chapter with a scout squad. It was a team of neophytes led by an initiate in carapace armor so it isn't unheard of. While traditionally the neophytes fight alongside their masters like squires to knights there's no reason a veteran wouldn't take them ranging to gather vital information and kill a few heretics and xenos along the way. Personally, I haven't had much luck with using neophytes in this edition so I'll be using scout squads to secure objectives while the rest of my army rushes the enemy.

[TheOneTrueZon]

Once we got access to scout squads, I won't lie, I started using them immediately as objective holders and harassment. I think it would make more sense to have an initiate in recon power armor or scout armor leading these "neophyte commando" squads as I've heard them called. Maybe it's one of their trials before they ascend to Initiate?

 

It's like in "The Professional" - you start from far away, and as you get better you get closer to your enemy.