Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[slitth]

I was wondering what weakness the primaris marines have in the lore.

 

I mean nothing made by the imperium of man can be flawless, It doesn't match the theme of 40K

 

I could see them with either a "mortal" lifespan, it would be fitting that they are stronger, but have a limit lifespan. Like the thunder warriors.

 

Or have some built in dependence on a drug. If they do not get the drug, they die. That would be a nice little safety feature to prevent rebellion.

And is something that see before in other media, but it would make sense to have something that keep primaris marines in line.

 

What about the rest of you? Do you want to see some kind of flaw in the primaris marines?

And if yes, what kind of flaws?

[Zeller]

Of course. If they had no weaknesses they'd be even more boring than being simple 11/10 space marines. I'm having a hard to wording this, but, it would be cool if Primaris marines were less innovative and adaptable than their weaker cousins. The idea being that Primaris marines are much more enhanced and balanced genetically that the quirks that developed in the gene seed of existing chapters wouldn't be able to manifest as prominently. I'm sure it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Then again, consider than during the GC the squads were comprised entirely of single weapon, single purpose models. There was very limited tactical flexibility at the squad level. Sure, armies were more massive so the the sum of its parts would meet battlefield requirements, but, this reliance on single purpose squads is also a liability, especially with the lower soldier production rates. I don't mean to equate single purpose/weapon squads with being less innovative, but, essentially that's part of my argument. :\

 

So, in short, Primaris forces would be much less adaptable to situations. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Zeller

[Brother Christopher]

This thread will be so painful to read, I'm almost inclined not to do so. Why, you may wonder? Well, I expect some amazing feedback, great ideas very much in the spirit of what I used to consider 40K. However, ultimately all of this is going to be nothing more than (I believe) good fanfiction.

 

Primaris by their very name are prime, I'm afraid, in everything. Flawed products don't sell as good as super-super humans. Also, I read that in Dark Imperium it was implied that they are to replace standard Marines and this is probably the path the fluff will take.

 

I would like to see many Primaris develop flaws caused by Cawl's mistakes or maybe spending too much time in and out of stasis (you know how they say not to freeze a once defrosted meat?) - organ deterioration, shorter lifespan, something along these lines. Or susceptibility to Chaos... Or something, anything really.

[Zeller]

What will the Imperium do with all the extra undersized power armor and TDA once Primaris marines are the only thing left?

[Shinespider]

What is the weakness of a Space Marine, relative to a normal human?

[sockwithaticket]

This thread will be so painful to read, I'm almost inclined not to do so. Why, you may wonder? Well, I expect some amazing feedback, great ideas very much in the spirit of what I used to consider 40K. However, ultimately all of this is going to be nothing more than (I believe) good fanfiction.

 

Primaris by their very name are prime, I'm afraid, in everything. Flawed products don't sell as good as super-super humans. Also, I read that in Dark Imperium it was implied that they are to replace standard Marines and this is probably the path the fluff will take.

 

I would like to see many Primaris develop flaws caused by Cawl's mistakes or maybe spending too much time in and out of stasis (you know how they say not to freeze a once defrosted meat?) - organ deterioration, shorter lifespan, something along these lines. Or susceptibility to Chaos... Or something, anything really.

Depends what you're selling. It would certainly make the Black Library books and anything else dealing with fluff more interesting if the Primaris had a hitherto undisclosed flaw (or flaws); any half-decent crime fiction writer knows your detective can't simply be a decent guy quietly and effectlvely doing his job.

 

Coming at it from a BA perspective, I really hope the rumours of having stabilised the flaw in their geneseed don't come to pass. Not least because following the Destruction of Baal I fully expect all chapters of Sanguinius lineage to be comprised of 80% Primaris and I think the BA lose a lot if they're stable. Who wants BA without Death Company? So much of the character of them and their successors is built around both the Red Thirst and the Black Rage; their struggle against their nature, trying to be mankind's staunchest defenders while having the potential to do it great harm, is compelling.

[slitth]

What is the weakness of a Space Marine, relative to a normal human?

 

That they have ambitions that match or exceed their augmentations.

They are after all post-human.

 

Of course. If they had no weaknesses they'd be even more boring than being simple 11/10 space marines. I'm having a hard to wording this, but, it would be cool if Primaris marines were less innovative and adaptable than their weaker cousins. The idea being that Primaris marines are much more enhanced and balanced genetically that the quirks that developed in the gene seed of existing chapters wouldn't be able to manifest as prominently. I'm sure it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Then again, consider than during the GC the squads were comprised entirely of single weapon, single purpose models. There was very limited tactical flexibility at the squad level. Sure, armies were more massive so the the sum of its parts would meet battlefield requirements, but, this reliance on single purpose squads is also a liability, especially with the lower soldier production rates. I don't mean to equate single purpose/weapon squads with being less innovative, but, essentially that's part of my argument. :\

 

So, in short, Primaris forces would be much less adaptable to situations. 

 

 

You make it sound like they be given a little bit too much of the Mechanicus treatment, with would make sense.

Total focus on objective and probably a total obedience to the Codex Astartes.

if if not in the book it not relevant.

 

Make me wonder how a Primaris marine would handle the old question. "If a tree fall in the woods and no one is around to hear it. Does it make a sound."

[Master Commander Ajax]

As far as I'm aware the only weakness that the Primaris Marines have (at least initially) when compared to traditional Space Marines is a lack of battlefield experience. 

[Arkangilos]

 

 

This thread will be so painful to read, I'm almost inclined not to do so. Why, you may wonder? Well, I expect some amazing feedback, great ideas very much in the spirit of what I used to consider 40K. However, ultimately all of this is going to be nothing more than (I believe) good fanfiction.

 

Primaris by their very name are prime, I'm afraid, in everything. Flawed products don't sell as good as super-super humans. Also, I read that in Dark Imperium it was implied that they are to replace standard Marines and this is probably the path the fluff will take.

 

I would like to see many Primaris develop flaws caused by Cawl's mistakes or maybe spending too much time in and out of stasis (you know how they say not to freeze a once defrosted meat?) - organ deterioration, shorter lifespan, something along these lines. Or susceptibility to Chaos... Or something, anything really.

Depends what you're selling. It would certainly make the Black Library books and anything else dealing with fluff more interesting if the Primaris had a hitherto undisclosed flaw (or flaws); any half-decent crime fiction writer knows your detective can't simply be a decent guy quietly and effectlvely doing his job.

 

Coming at it from a BA perspective, I really hope the rumours of having stabilised the flaw in their geneseed don't come to pass. Not least because following the Destruction of Baal I fully expect all chapters of Sanguinius lineage to be comprised of 80% Primaris and I think the BA lose a lot if they're stable. Who wants BA without Death Company? So much of the character of them and their successors is built around both the Red Thirst and the Black Rage; their struggle against their nature, trying to be mankind's staunchest defenders while having the potential to do it great harm, is compelling.

... You realize that was never in the rumors? That Cawl specifically said he left the Flaws?

[Urriak Urruk]

So far, they literally have no weaknesses. They are literally superior in every way.

 

The only weaknesses that I can really think of is that there are less of them. This isn't really true as in the fluff it is explaining most SM chapters are actually getting replaced with Primaris, but in the real-world more players will obviously have more normal marines than Primaris.

 

Maybe culture shock is a weakness? A lot of these Primaris will be trying to fill the shoes of established Chapters, and may face backlash from the "veterans." (Looking at you, Black Templars!)

 

Oh, and lack of characters, or "leaders." The Primaris have no established characters yet about from Primaris versions of chaplains, librarians, captains and apothecaries. Meaning, in any fluff where an established SM character shows up, that character will be ordering around the Primaris.

 

For example, Calgar will be able to order UM Primaris to do whatever he wants, despite himself being physically inferior to them.

 

In the future the Primaris will probably get their own characters, or established characters will get the Primaris upgrades to become one themselves, but for now they are essentially soldiers for the "old leadership."

[Skaorn]

One of the obvious flaws that I'd personally run with is that because the transformation is even more dramatic, it is more likely to be fatal to aspirants. If you carry that over to that it can also still be lethal to a space marine being converted to a Primaris, you then have to decide if it's worth risking a veteran to make them more powerful. At the very least you could get a decent story from it about an SM needing to complete some goal while being slowly torn apart by the Primaris organs.

[Cryptix]

Legion tactics is canon - Gulliman's gone feral, and the Primaris have no training out of their niche. An Intercessor has no idea how to operate and maintain a Plasma Incinerator without hurting itself.

[Adeptus]

The only thing that would make Primaris marines interesting to me would be if there was some unforeseen flaw in their makeup that saw them defect en masse to the Ruinous Powers. To see what was supposed to be Guilliman's Silver Bullet solution become just another foe, and to see the nearly-mothballed original Astartes called out to defend them Imperium and fight these bigger, stronger, better in every way Primaris marines.

 

That would make them interesting. At the moment, they're utterly boring.

 

It doesn't match the theme of 40K

That's the Primaris marines in a nutshell.

Further, can anyone confirm with citations if and how a normal Astartes can become a Primaris?

[slitth]

Perhaps is reception they receive that will be their downfall.

It must feel really unfair to the Primaris marines if they are not accepted as expected.

 

After all they are the new and improved Astartes.

Sons of loyal primarchs and closer to their sires than the older generation.

They are better and do not have to prove anything.

But if the are consisted second rate by the veterans....

Well that would be enough to start a rebellion or not.

 

Personally I much prefer a flaw at the genetic level.

It would be a much need addition to see the Primaris marines suffer because of the hubris of Cawl.

[Ishagu]

The Primaris are simply superior Marines, no weakness or downsides.

 

The galactic threats have intensified, the Imperium has risen to the occasion.

[Wargamer]

In my canon, Primaris are Thunder Warriors - they all have something akin to the black rage that could bubble up to the surface if the conditions are right.

[Adeptus]

The Primaris are simply superior Marines, no weakness or downsides.

Which, in a setting like the Imperium of Man, is unacceptably bland.

[Robbienw]

I'm sure they will have some flaw or deficiency that will come out at some point.  I reckon GW is just drawing people in at the moment with their super super heroes flawless marines +1 feel, to sell loads of them before dropping any fluff bombshells.   Chaos/Renegade Primaris are inevitable.

 

At the moment their one flaw is an out of universe one, they are utterly boring and don't really fit in 40k fluff :lol:

[Brother Christopher]

The Primaris are simply superior Marines, no weakness or downsides.

 

The galactic threats have intensified, the Imperium has risen to the occasion.

 

I find the "simply" part very problematic - as Adeptus wrote, such a classification makes the whole thing bland and difficult to accept.

 

While it may be argued that Cawl has perfected the Space Marines' design (and 'perfected' means what it is: there are no flaws), I find it difficult to accept this as a thing in a fictional universe or even the primary world. There are always some downsides. Even if a product is 'truly perfect,' it should at least be difficult/expensive to produce (or the production process should be time-consuming), especially when we factor in the once-proclaimed sparsity of Imperial resources.

 

Once Space Marines were the ultimate weapon, but their 'production' was complex, hazardous, did not guarantee results (something akin to training of witchers). Now it seems that not only are the Space Marines enhanced, but also easier to make and equip with better wargear. This kind of stands in contrast, for instance, to the problems the Imperium has with arming Imperial Guard regiments who, after all, use inferior weapons.

 

Things would probably look better if we had those 20'000 Marines Cawl made throughout the 10'000 years and production of more of these guys would be a strain, but this does not appear to be so.

[Ciler]

So far, they literally have no weaknesses. They are literally superior in every way.

 

The only weaknesses that I can really think of is that there are less of them. This isn't really true as in the fluff it is explaining most SM chapters are actually getting replaced with Primaris, but in the real-world more players will obviously have more normal marines than Primaris.

 

Maybe culture shock is a weakness? A lot of these Primaris will be trying to fill the shoes of established Chapters, and may face backlash from the "veterans." (Looking at you, Black Templars!)

From what we have seen of the codex thus far, the High marshal has accepted primaris marines in his ranks.

 

But I agree, primaris marines should have some sort of weakness. I expect however that this will only be revealed later as the setting evolves.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Ciler

[sockwithaticket]

 

 

This thread will be so painful to read, I'm almost inclined not to do so. Why, you may wonder? Well, I expect some amazing feedback, great ideas very much in the spirit of what I used to consider 40K. However, ultimately all of this is going to be nothing more than (I believe) good fanfiction.

 

Primaris by their very name are prime, I'm afraid, in everything. Flawed products don't sell as good as super-super humans. Also, I read that in Dark Imperium it was implied that they are to replace standard Marines and this is probably the path the fluff will take.

 

I would like to see many Primaris develop flaws caused by Cawl's mistakes or maybe spending too much time in and out of stasis (you know how they say not to freeze a once defrosted meat?) - organ deterioration, shorter lifespan, something along these lines. Or susceptibility to Chaos... Or something, anything really.

Depends what you're selling. It would certainly make the Black Library books and anything else dealing with fluff more interesting if the Primaris had a hitherto undisclosed flaw (or flaws); any half-decent crime fiction writer knows your detective can't simply be a decent guy quietly and effectlvely doing his job.

 

Coming at it from a BA perspective, I really hope the rumours of having stabilised the flaw in their geneseed don't come to pass. Not least because following the Destruction of Baal I fully expect all chapters of Sanguinius lineage to be comprised of 80% Primaris and I think the BA lose a lot if they're stable. Who wants BA without Death Company? So much of the character of them and their successors is built around both the Red Thirst and the Black Rage; their struggle against their nature, trying to be mankind's staunchest defenders while having the potential to do it great harm, is compelling.

... You realize that was never in the rumors? That Cawl specifically said he left the Flaws?

 

I've read conflicting things on that, ranging from completely stable to still suffer from the thirst but not the rage to no change. Similarly I've seen it claimed that Space Wolves will no longer suffer the curse of the Wulfen. Ultimately we'll have to wait and see.

[Lucerne]

They're strategically inflexible and a squad of competent Chaos chosen can and have torn them apart in a straight fight.

 

Old age and cunning beat youth and strength.

[Brother Christopher]

They're strategically inflexible and a squad of competent Chaos chosen can and have torn them apart in a straight fight.

 

Old age and cunning beat youth and strength.

 

While I love to accept this line of reasoning, I'm afraid it is basically wrong (or at least totally wrong when it comes to comparing Primaris and nonPrimaris Marines; not sure about Chaos, though, who seem to live 'a bit' longer). We tend to superimpose our perspective onto the setting - for us all these 8th Edition events are fresh and new, whereas (hundreds?) of years have passed in the setting - that seems like enough time for the "youth" and "lack of experience" of the Primaris to wear off and not be a factor.

[the jeske]

maybe being more resilient to chaos, is going to make them less good psykers. As in fewer primaris librarians that werent librarians before transitioning, and fewer to non Alfa level psykers among them etc.

[Stercus]

Their principle flaw is their unrelenting and catastrophic dullness.

If you took a thousand primaris marines and painted them all beige, and then wrote a 10,000 word description of them consisting only of the word "blah" and read it out in a tedious nasal monotone over several hours to a room full of half-asleep, half-deaf grannies with no interest in 40k, that would pretty much sum up the level of excitement they raise.

Everything that makes the stories behind this hobby interesting and compelling is excruciating in its abscence from the primaris marines. They're bigger, better, faster, stronger, less corrupted by virtue of having been hidden from the grimdark universe. They're boring. So very boring.

 

Apologies to those who like them, but when I see a primaris, I genuinely struggle to stifle a yawn.