Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[Huggtand]

What we know the primaris marines has the same flaws as the rest of the "normal" marines. Cawl has cleaned up the geneseed from mutations but the usual chapter flaws (curse of wulfen, black thirst, etc) are still there. He dumped in three new organs but the rest still has to be installet in the usual way what we know. So there is still the usual traditions for that.

 

In all I don´t know why so many are so upset about the fluff apart from that it´s badly written and a bit rushed

 

The first batch of primaris is a little special since they didn´t matured in the chapeter culture but if we look at the future primaris implemention in the chapters, its just a bit cleaner geneseed and three new organs. Its the same recruits, the same test and traditions, the same culture and training. So apart from being a little better physicaly they have the same flaws and strengths as all other marines in the chapter.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Huggtand

[Xwingt65]

The Primaris are simply superior Marines, no weakness or downsides.

 

The galactic threats have intensified, the Imperium has risen to the occasion.

This is how I see it. The Primaris are the last hope for the Imperium.

[sockwithaticket]

 

In all I don´t know why so many are so upset about the fluff apart from that it´s badly written and a bit rushed

You appear to have identified one of the big reasons.

[Huggtand]

 

 

In all I don´t know why so many are so upset about the fluff apart from that it´s badly written and a bit rushed

You appear to have identified one of the big reasons.

 

 

Yes but thats the presentation not the fluff-content (I hope I make sense ) Apart from the lackluster presentation I actually find the setting to be more interesting and grim-dark than before.

 

The splitt in the imperium makes for great storytelling (it´s classic setting with a somewhat "safe" side and a dark side) where before you always knew that chaos is over there and the nids are over there now you can have more freedome in the narrative in my opinion.

 

And as I said apart from the presentation of the fluff, the primaris that we will raise in the chapters don´t differ from the other marines except from the three extra organs. (tabletop unit rules is a different story)

[Brother Christopher]

 

The Primaris are simply superior Marines, no weakness or downsides.

 

The galactic threats have intensified, the Imperium has risen to the occasion.

This is how I see it. The Primaris are the last hope for the Imperium.

 

 

But, you know, before that the Space Marines were the last hope. I wager that many of us find this introduction of a 'lastest hope' feels cheap and takes away much of the atmosphere of the setting because it removes tension. Especially that the last-moment intervention of Guilliman and Primaris is abused and flattens all major conflicts, taking away any real impact: Chapter X got decimated and an entire system was nearly lost - don't worry, forget about it; the defenders were relieved and reinforced by superior warriors, so the Chapter X came out stronger from the apparently imminent doom.

 

This is largely why I hope that the Primaris project will backfire in some way. Or we might see it 'fail' and some important persona will surface with 10'000 of Primaris Custodians or some other 'last hope'.

 

I personally find this plot-advancement insulting and damaging to the setting, but this is my opinion to which I feel entitled to. For this, I stick to the fluff that I find more entertaining.

[Adeptus]

Yes but thats the presentation not the fluff-content (I hope I make sense )

My problem with the fluff-content is that it's boring. It's literally Marines+1. There's no drawback, there's no flaw, there's no cost, there's no conflict. It's just "Oh, Marines are bigger and stronger and better now, and all your Marines are inferior, only Primaris marines are the best!"

 

Laaaaame.

But, you know, before that the Space Marines were the last hope. I wager that many of us find this introduction of a 'lastest hope' feels cheap and takes away much of the atmosphere of the setting because it removes tension. Especially that the last-moment intervention of Guilliman and Primaris is abused and flattens all major conflicts, taking away any real impact: Chapter X got decimated and an entire system was nearly lost - don't worry, forget about it; the defenders were relieved and reinforced by superior warriors, so the Chapter X came out stronger from the apparently imminent doom.

 

This is largely why I hope that the Primaris project will backfire in some way. Or we might see it 'fail' and some important persona will surface with 10'000 of Primaris Custodians or some other 'last hope'.

 

I personally find this plot-advancement insulting and damaging to the setting, but this is my opinion to which I feel entitled to. For this, I stick to the fluff that I find more entertaining.

Sums it up perfectly for me.

[sockwithaticket]

 

 

 

In all I don´t know why so many are so upset about the fluff apart from that it´s badly written and a bit rushed

You appear to have identified one of the big reasons.

 

 

Yes but thats the presentation not the fluff-content (I hope I make sense ) Apart from the lackluster presentation I actually find the setting to be more interesting and grim-dark than before.

 

The splitt in the imperium makes for great storytelling (it´s classic setting with a somewhat "safe" side and a dark side) where before you always knew that chaos is over there and the nids are over there now you can have more freedome in the narrative in my opinion.

 

And as I said apart from the presentation of the fluff, the primaris that we will raise in the chapters don´t differ from the other marines except from the three extra organs. (tabletop unit rules is a different story)

 

Some of the setting changes are indeed, potentialliy, very interesting and could inspire some great fluff.

 

However, concepts and ideas live and die by their execution. There are some potentially great Transformers movies to be made, yet look at what we got...Paradigm cannot be divorced from how it's presented and so far some of the stuff put forward by frater on various threads is more coherent and 'feels' more 40k than official story.

 

[Ishagu]

Guys these are new models and a developing time line.

 

All the factions will get new stuff. Let's just be happy

:-D

Edited July 27, 2017 by Ishagu

[joschlumpf]

What we know the primaris marines has the same flaws as the rest of the "normal" marines. Cawl has cleaned up the geneseed from mutations but the usual chapter flaws (curse of wulfen, black thirst, etc) are still there. 

 

 

I didn´t read the book but someone here mentioned that in Dark Imperium Cawl states he cured things like curse of the Wulfen and the Black Thirst.

That would mean they have at least not the same flaws like their chapters.

[Huggtand]

I do agree that the indominus crusade is a bit of a big yawn and a missed opertunety for a great story. Problem here I suspect is that GW think that Hero-hammer is the new trend wich is a bit booring.

 

On the bright side there seems to be really good new books from BL in the new setting so there is hope

 

 

What we know the primaris marines has the same flaws as the rest of the "normal" marines. Cawl has cleaned up the geneseed from mutations but the usual chapter flaws (curse of wulfen, black thirst, etc) are still there. 

 

 

I didn´t read the book but someone here mentioned that in Dark Imperium Cawl states he cured things like curse of the Wulfen and the Black Thirst.

That would mean they have at least not the same flaws like their chapters.

 

 

Nope, in the book Cawl said that the "flaws" was part of big E´s unike design and that they are still there.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Huggtand

[Lucerne]

 

They're strategically inflexible and a squad of competent Chaos chosen can and have torn them apart in a straight fight.

 

Old age and cunning beat youth and strength.

 

While I love to accept this line of reasoning, I'm afraid it is basically wrong (or at least totally wrong when it comes to comparing Primaris and nonPrimaris Marines; not sure about Chaos, though, who seem to live 'a bit' longer). We tend to superimpose our perspective onto the setting - for us all these 8th Edition events are fresh and new, whereas (hundreds?) of years have passed in the setting - that seems like enough time for the "youth" and "lack of experience" of the Primaris to wear off and not be a factor.

 

Thing is we see the Primaris run into a squad of Alpha Legion veterans, ie: Chosen.

 

The Alphas are surprised by their resilience but still tear them apart due to experience, equipment, and adapting better during the brawling.

[A D-B]

EDIT: Actually, I don't want to jump into this one. 

 

EJECT!

Edited July 27, 2017 by A D-B

[Captain Idaho]

Dark Imperium has a lovely scene that GW can abuse for our glorious benefit:

 

Guilliman is addressing the various representatives of just about all the Political and militant factions of the Imperium. He explains that none are above hubris and heresy, classic and Primaris Marine alike. If my memory serves he even implies the Primarchs like Horus fell despite supposed loyaly

 

So on that basis, GW can easily provide us with new factions and plot twists. My favourite is the idea of Calgar running a rebellion against Imperial changes and Guilliman and providing us the chance to oppose the Chapters embracing change (Primaris included) and the classical Space Marines. All fight for the Imperium but also each other and maybe even Calgar's Warborn rebels have to raid certain Imperial planets to survive.

 

Blue on blue action and a reason to bring out variant army lists.

 

Bring on the Warborn!

[Ishagu]

I do agree that the indominus crusade is a bit of a big yawn and a missed opertunety for a great story. Problem here I suspect is that GW think that Hero-hammer is the new trend wich is a bit booring.

 

On the bright side there seems to be really good new books from BL in the new setting so there is hope

 

 

 

 

What we know the primaris marines has the same flaws as the rest of the "normal" marines. Cawl has cleaned up the geneseed from mutations but the usual chapter flaws (curse of wulfen, black thirst, etc) are still there.

 

I didn´t read the book but someone here mentioned that in Dark Imperium Cawl states he cured things like curse of the Wulfen and the Black Thirst.

That would mean they have at least not the same flaws like their chapters.

Nope, in the book Cawl said that the "flaws" was part of big E´s unike design and that they are still there.

Cawl stabilised the gene seed and has almost eliminated mutations from SW, BA, etc stock.

 

The Primaris are much more stable, things like the Black Rage aren't an issue as of yet, and the success rate of creating them is almost the same across all Chapters.

[slitth]

Primaris Marines are a OK next step and good lore counter to chaos boosted Astartes.

 

What I do not like is that they are pull of the dark side of Mars and are ready to go as if this was all planned.

It too perfect, too neat.

 

It would have like it better if the first generation of Primaris Marines are lab specimens that are tough but not really fit to fight.

That Cawl consider the project unfinished because he has not be able to perfect everything yet.

In the 10.000 years time he has only be able to stabilize the original recruitment procedure.

This is good because the current chapter need to rebuild fast.

He has be unable to cure the flaws in the gene-seed, but has least be able to contain the problem so it does not escalate.

This means that the chapters will be somewhat at status quo with their individual problems.

He has be working on a upgrade that can only be given to mature marines, but is only safely available to 1 in 10 and takes time to implement.

Cawl is the order to use the first generation of Primaris Marines against his better judgement.

Effectively leaving him with no lab specimens or resources to continue an unfinished upgrade to deploy. (If one does not count the few lab specimens with traitor gene-seed in them)

But the need of the imperium is great and is not kind to the visions of Cawl.

[Skaorn]

Guys these are new models and a developing time line.

All the factions will get new stuff. Let's just be happy

:-D

I'd be much happier if they were focusing on new models for non imperial armies that rarely get any love.

[Jagus Kumkani]

It's too early to tell honestly. I love the lore as much as anybody here, that's what makes 40k what it is.

 

Maybe something we can consider since Primaris Marines are being integrated into just about every Chapter, is the Primaris Marines having a superiority complex to them.

Doing things their way, defying orders, etc. This could be potential conflict within Chapters. Primaris collectively stage a coup, wanting to rid themselves of the "weaklings". More Space Marine on Space Marine killing! HH 2.0

[Ishagu]

Does Abaddon have a weakness?

 

What about Yvraine?

 

How about the Hive Mind?

 

 

Why should Primaris Marines?

[Shinespider]

 

What is the weakness of a Space Marine, relative to a normal human?

 

That they have ambitions that match or exceed their augmentations.

They are after all post-human.

 

 

This is the equivalent of being asked in a job interview what your weakness is and saying "I'm too good at my job!"

 

Face it: Space Marines have no weaknesses. Yes, they're ambitious and chaos can exploit that, but that's no different from any human. Demanding that Primaris Marines have some fundamental flaw is absurd, and ultimately just stems from a distaste for the whole concept of primaris marines and a desire to somehow denigrate them. 

 

People that Primaris are somehow bad before the range even launched and now they're annoyed that GW isn't giving them fuel to feed that opinion. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Shinespider

[Ciler]

 

Face it: Space Marines have no weaknesses. Yes, they're ambitious and chaos can exploit that, but that's no different from any human. Demanding that Primaris Marines have some fundamental flaw is absurd, and ultimately just stems from a distaste for the whole concept of primaris marines and a desire to somehow denigrate them. 

 

People that Primaris are somehow bad before the range even launched and now they're annoyed that GW isn't giving them fuel to feed that opinion. 

 

Not quite, no. Space Marines do have weaknesses, although less than "regular" humans admittedly. Their main weakness is faulty gene seed, and the associated risk of mutation. They are also very limited in numbers, compared to imperial guards, it takes time and resources to make a space marine.

 

It's one of the main pillars of any grimdark story, nothing is perfect, no-one really succeeds.

 

On that basis, primaris must have a flaw, or they'll essentially compromise the setting simply by... winning. I don't dislike primaris, I'm actually quite liking them. The models are nice, and although their background is currently weak, it can only improve with time (much like that of regular marines incidentally). Something as simple as "primaris take three times as long to make as regular marines" would do.  

[Servant of Dante]

The issue for me is that we already have basically-perfect super soldiers that have been an integral part of the setting for decades (Space Marines). So why should I want more-perfect more-super soldiers shoehorned into the setting as a Deus ex Machina device? It's boring. Hopefully GW and the Black Library do interesting stuff with them, but as it stands . . . I'm not impressed.

[Doghouse]

EDIT: Actually, I don't want to jump into this one. 

 

EJECT!

 

Good idea mate. :D

[chapter master 454]

Lets see what happens once we progress a little. After all, flaws only really appeared after a while and this is the first batch. Lets see how Primaris hold up after 50 odd generations of gene seed recovery and harvesting coupled with having those organs exposed to radiation and the like from whatever random things marines fight.

 

Right now this is the squeaky clean, cawl made proper primaris but as we know the Emperor started out well with the space marines but hey, even just a couple of millennia started to reveal defects. Right now we barely have 200 years which is still the first batch of Cawl approved primaris. What happens once the chapters begin incorporating their own rituals and standards which aren't Cawl's?

[Ciler]

Lets see what happens once we progress a little. After all, flaws only really appeared after a while and this is the first batch. Lets see how Primaris hold up after 50 odd generations of gene seed recovery and harvesting coupled with having those organs exposed to radiation and the like from whatever random things marines fight.

 

Right now this is the squeaky clean, cawl made proper primaris but as we know the Emperor started out well with the space marines but hey, even just a couple of millennia started to reveal defects. Right now we barely have 200 years which is still the first batch of Cawl approved primaris. What happens once the chapters begin incorporating their own rituals and standards which aren't Cawl's?

Pretty much. Marines were pretty much fine during the great crusade as well, it's only after some 200 years that problems like mutations, the red thirst and wulfen really started to crop up visibly.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

This thread will be so painful to read, I'm almost inclined not to do so. Why, you may wonder? Well, I expect some amazing feedback, great ideas very much in the spirit of what I used to consider 40K. However, ultimately all of this is going to be nothing more than (I believe) good fanfiction.

 

Primaris by their very name are prime, I'm afraid, in everything. Flawed products don't sell as good as super-super humans. Also, I read that in Dark Imperium it was implied that they are to replace standard Marines and this is probably the path the fluff will take.

 

I would like to see many Primaris develop flaws caused by Cawl's mistakes or maybe spending too much time in and out of stasis (you know how they say not to freeze a once defrosted meat?) - organ deterioration, shorter lifespan, something along these lines. Or susceptibility to Chaos... Or something, anything really.

Depends what you're selling. It would certainly make the Black Library books and anything else dealing with fluff more interesting if the Primaris had a hitherto undisclosed flaw (or flaws); any half-decent crime fiction writer knows your detective can't simply be a decent guy quietly and effectlvely doing his job.

 

Coming at it from a BA perspective, I really hope the rumours of having stabilised the flaw in their geneseed don't come to pass. Not least because following the Destruction of Baal I fully expect all chapters of Sanguinius lineage to be comprised of 80% Primaris and I think the BA lose a lot if they're stable. Who wants BA without Death Company? So much of the character of them and their successors is built around both the Red Thirst and the Black Rage; their struggle against their nature, trying to be mankind's staunchest defenders while having the potential to do it great harm, is compelling.

... You realize that was never in the rumors? That Cawl specifically said he left the Flaws?

I've read conflicting things on that, ranging from completely stable to still suffer from the thirst but not the rage to no change. Similarly I've seen it claimed that Space Wolves will no longer suffer the curse of the Wulfen. Ultimately we'll have to wait and see.

Except that it's not, because we have in lore proof that Cawl said that he left the big Flaws of the Space Wolf and Blood Angel lines because he thought they were supposed to be there...