Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[Schlitzaf]

I will stand with Ishagu why should Primaris come with their own universal Achilles Heal? Do the Fists suffer the Black Rage or Red Thirst? What about the Ultramarines, do they have the issue of an unstable Gene-Seed?

 

Or how about the Black Templars, do we suffer form excessive paranoia that we lie, deceive and betray our fellow Astartes or Imperial Organizatiosn like some green colored Tabard wearing marines?

 

If you want to go on are the Iron Hands limited by having an empathic opanion of mortal humans like certain other master artificers of the Salamander Chapter. Why should my Black Templar Primaris suffer the same inhibitions or flaws of the Space Wolves Primaris?

 

And yes perhaps Primaris, are Super Marines. But you know what each Primaris is? A Space Marine. They walk and march with the blood of their Primarch. They fight in the name of the Emperor and for Humanity to see another sunrise.

 

They are the products of Gulliman and Cawl, tinkering. That is no doubt. But my Primaris are still Scions of Dorn. Untested and perhaps untrusted. But they are Scions of Dorn and shall inherit the legacy of Sigismund, not Scions of the Roboute Gulliman nor are they the inheritors of Cawl's ambitions.

 

And each Primaris, shall know whose legacy they also inherit. Almerich, the Emperor's Champion whose blade gave the Imperium a 2nd chance. And maybe, just maybe, not chance a to survive but chance to live and become the Imperium that united the Milky Way 10 millennia ago.

 

And now I said all this. Imagine the burden you bear as a Primaris, be you an Intercessor to a Captain. Placed in stasis 10 millennia ago. You return to a home you don't recognize and what you thought were your brothers to be, embracing you in open arms. Spit on your food, reject you outright.

 

Yet for those who did, you are expected to be the light, to be the sun, that carries the Imperium out this midnight, this twilight hour. You are the last line. More so than even the Astartes of the last 10 Millennia. For the Daemon Primarchs have returned in force.

 

Magnus and Moratorion, within only a couple centuries have appeared now and launching their wars against the Imperium. And as you traverse the Imperium in the Indomitius Crusade, you learn of threats like the Great Devour, the Tyranids, the Undead Automata of the Necrons, and that Orks have returned after being suppressed during the Great Crusade.

 

And you are expected to take that all on. While dealing with mistrust, inexperience, and culture shocks. The Primaris are new, and something utterly radical. New. And had you been not the pet project of an Archmagos who survived sense the Horus Heresy, and the Primarch who welded the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy.

 

You would been damned by the people who you have been created to protect. Seen as no better than the traitor legions who turned from the Imperium. Are they strictly better Marines? Maybe. But are they enough? They have to be. For as the Space Marine Codex has iterated to us again and again.

 

There are more Planets in the Imperium's Domain then their Adeptus Astartes, and only 1000 Chapters to defend them all. And Primaris? They still don't change that. And no matter if a Space Marine is a Primaris or not. They must be sufficient. They must know no fear. For no matter how mighty they are few.

 

And they are the Angel's of Death, The Emperor's Finest, the Adeptus Astartes. They are Space Marines and Shall Know No Fear. Because if they do, all is lost.

 

--------

I tangented all I am trying to say, Primaris while improved over Space Marines. Are still just that Space Marines. And your Super Humans are still Super Humans. And Primaris do have flaws because of what they are by nature. We don't need to add some universal genetic defect to Primaris. And even Primaris don't really change the Imperium is on borrowed time.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Ciler]

I will stand with Ishagu why should Primaris come with their own universal Achilles Heal? Do the Fists suffer the Black Rage or Red Thirst? What about the Ultramarines, do they have the issue of an unstable Gene-Seed?

 

Or how about the Black Templars, do we suffer form excessive paranoia that we lie, deceive and betray our fellow Astartes or Imperial Organizatiosn like some green colored Tabard wearing marines?

 

If you want to go on are the Iron Hands limited by having an empathic opanion of mortal humans like certain other master artificers of the Salamander Chapter. Why should my Black Templar Primaris suffer the same inhibitions or flaws of the Space Wolves Primaris?

Well, I'm glad you bring BTs up, yes we do have a seemingly important gene seed flaw. Have you forgotten the whole no psyker thing ? It's not just candidate selection, Templars used to have psykers and now... they don't.

 

Each chapter has some manner of defect, flaw or weakness. It's not necessarily gene-seed, I used that example because it's the most striking, but it's not limitating.

• Fists are masochists and can't spit acid
• Ultramarines have for the longest time been prisoners of the codex
• Dark Angels have secrets...

Being flawed doesn't mean being a failure, it just means the character has depth.

[Schlitzaf]

 

I will stand with Ishagu why should Primaris come with their own universal Achilles Heal? Do the Fists suffer the Black Rage or Red Thirst? What about the Ultramarines, do they have the issue of an unstable Gene-Seed?

Or how about the Black Templars, do we suffer form excessive paranoia that we lie, deceive and betray our fellow Astartes or Imperial Organizatiosn like some green colored Tabard wearing marines?

If you want to go on are the Iron Hands limited by having an empathic opanion of mortal humans like certain other master artificers of the Salamander Chapter. Why should my Black Templar Primaris suffer the same inhibitions or flaws of the Space Wolves Primaris?

 

Well, I'm glad you bring BTs up, yes we do have a seemingly important gene seed flaw. Have you forgotten the whole no psyker thing ? It's not just candidate selection, Templars used to have psykers and now... they don't.

 

Each chapter has some manner of defect, flaw or weakness. It's not necessarily gene-seed, I used that example because it's the most striking, but it's not limitating.

• Fists are masochists and can't spit acid
• Ultramarines have for the longest time been prisoners of the codex
• Dark Angels have secrets...

Being flawed doesn't mean being a failure, it just means the character has depth.

I thought being unable to spit acids was just a Templar thing or do all Dorn Scions have that issue? But yes I agree with that. But BT Primaris shouldn't have the same 'flaws' or issues as a Blood Angel or Space Wolf Primaris is all I am trying to say. Just imagine a culture shock for a Primaris arriving at BT Crusade and learning the "no Pysker/Librarian Rule". Vs a Greyshield trying to cope with the curse of Wulfen or Red Thirst without Chaplains or Rune Priests to help mitigate the curse or help the Astartes work through the curse/flaw.

 

And if you read the full post I noted some issues (or flaws or complications etc) that Primaris Marines could or would have in the story without, every Primaris being given the same universal in-built biological Achilles heels which some here seem to want.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[sockwithaticket]

 

 

 

 

This thread will be so painful to read, I'm almost inclined not to do so. Why, you may wonder? Well, I expect some amazing feedback, great ideas very much in the spirit of what I used to consider 40K. However, ultimately all of this is going to be nothing more than (I believe) good fanfiction.

 

Primaris by their very name are prime, I'm afraid, in everything. Flawed products don't sell as good as super-super humans. Also, I read that in Dark Imperium it was implied that they are to replace standard Marines and this is probably the path the fluff will take.

 

I would like to see many Primaris develop flaws caused by Cawl's mistakes or maybe spending too much time in and out of stasis (you know how they say not to freeze a once defrosted meat?) - organ deterioration, shorter lifespan, something along these lines. Or susceptibility to Chaos... Or something, anything really.

Depends what you're selling. It would certainly make the Black Library books and anything else dealing with fluff more interesting if the Primaris had a hitherto undisclosed flaw (or flaws); any half-decent crime fiction writer knows your detective can't simply be a decent guy quietly and effectlvely doing his job.

 

Coming at it from a BA perspective, I really hope the rumours of having stabilised the flaw in their geneseed don't come to pass. Not least because following the Destruction of Baal I fully expect all chapters of Sanguinius lineage to be comprised of 80% Primaris and I think the BA lose a lot if they're stable. Who wants BA without Death Company? So much of the character of them and their successors is built around both the Red Thirst and the Black Rage; their struggle against their nature, trying to be mankind's staunchest defenders while having the potential to do it great harm, is compelling.

... You realize that was never in the rumors? That Cawl specifically said he left the Flaws?

I've read conflicting things on that, ranging from completely stable to still suffer from the thirst but not the rage to no change. Similarly I've seen it claimed that Space Wolves will no longer suffer the curse of the Wulfen. Ultimately we'll have to wait and see.

Except that it's not, because we have in lore proof that Cawl said that he left the big Flaws of the Space Wolf and Blood Angel lines because he thought they were supposed to be there...

 

Leaving the flaws in that he thought are supposed to be there, suggests only the Red Thirst to me, not the Black Rage.

 

Perhaps the posters I've seen discussing it are wrong, but Lexicanum says this while citing chapter 12 of Dark Imperium as it's source:

 

In addition, their gene-seed is far more stable and only has a 0.001% genetic deviancy per generation, avoiding the severe instability problems seen with Chapter's such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves

 

 

Whie Ishagu, who generally seems to be up on all the recent fluff, says this in this very thread

 

 *snipped quotes from other posters*

Cawl stabilised the gene seed and has almost eliminated mutations from SW, BA, etc stock.

 

The Primaris are much more stable, things like the Black Rage aren't an issue as of yet, and the success rate of creating them is almost the same across all Chapters.

 

[slitth]

I will stand with Ishagu why should Primaris come with their own universal Achilles Heal? Do the Fists suffer the Black Rage or Red Thirst? What about the Ultramarines, do they have the issue of an unstable Gene-Seed?

 

Or how about the Black Templars, do we suffer form excessive paranoia that we lie, deceive and betray our fellow Astartes or Imperial Organizatiosn like some green colored Tabard wearing marines?

 

If you want to go on are the Iron Hands limited by having an empathic opanion of mortal humans like certain other master artificers of the Salamander Chapter. Why should my Black Templar Primaris suffer the same inhibitions or flaws of the Space Wolves Primaris?

 

And yes perhaps Primaris, are Super Marines. But you know what each Primaris is? A Space Marine. They walk and march with the blood of their Primarch. They fight in the name of the Emperor and for Humanity to see another sunrise.

 

They are the products of Gulliman and Cawl, tinkering. That is no doubt. But my Primaris are still Scions of Dorn. Untested and perhaps untrusted. But they are Scions of Dorn and shall inherit the legacy of Sigismund, not Scions of the Roboute Gulliman nor are they the inheritors of Cawl's ambitions.

 

And each Primaris, shall know whose legacy they also inherit. Almerich, the Emperor's Champion whose blade gave the Imperium a 2nd chance. And maybe, just maybe, not chance a to survive but chance to live and become the Imperium that united the Milky Way 10 millennia ago.

 

And now I said all this. Imagine the burden you bear as a Primaris, be you an Intercessor to a Captain. Placed in stasis 10 millennia ago. You return to a home you don't recognize and what you thought were your brothers to be, embracing you in open arms. Spit on your food, reject you outright.

 

Yet for those who did, you are expected to be the light, to be the sun, that carries the Imperium out this midnight, this twilight hour. You are the last line. More so than even the Astartes of the last 10 Millennia. For the Daemon Primarchs have returned in force.

 

Magnus and Moratorion, within only a couple centuries have appeared now and launching their wars against the Imperium. And as you traverse the Imperium in the Indomitius Crusade, you learn of threats like the Great Devour, the Tyranids, the Undead Automata of the Necrons, and that Orks have returned after being suppressed during the Great Crusade.

 

And you are expected to take that all on. While dealing with mistrust, inexperience, and culture shocks. The Primaris are new, and something utterly radical. New. And had you been not the pet project of an Archmagos who survived sense the Horus Heresy, and the Primarch who welded the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy.

 

You would been damned by the people who you have been created to protect. Seen as no better than the traitor legions who turned from the Imperium. Are they strictly better Marines? Maybe. But are they enough? They have to be. For as the Space Marine Codex has iterated to us again and again.

 

There are more Planets in the Imperium's Domain then their Adeptus Astartes, and only 1000 Chapters to defend them all. And Primaris? They still don't change that. And no matter if a Space Marine is a Primaris or not. They must be sufficient. They must know no fear. For no matter how mighty they are few.

 

And they are the Angel's of Death, The Emperor's Finest, the Adeptus Astartes. They are Space Marines and Shall Know No Fear. Because if they do, all is lost.

 

--------

I tangented all I am trying to say, Primaris while improved over Space Marines. Are still just that Space Marines. And your Super Humans are still Super Humans. And Primaris do have flaws because of what they are by nature. We don't need to add some universal genetic defect to Primaris. And even Primaris don't really change the Imperium is on borrowed time.

 

Has the Imperium enjoyed a period of progress? Are the Primaris the glorious culmination of this?

No it has be state of steady decline, where more knowledge is lost that gain.

And in the hour of need 20.000 Achilles appear in power armour. If that does not stink of Deus ex machina, I do know what does.

 

The only thing that could top it was if they were lead by all the Loyalist Primarchs and the Emperor himself.

 

Now it would be nice if were was downside added to this miracle. Just to even things up again.

Sure there is a great rift now, but is that a good thing if you need to invent super space marines with out any flaw?

 

And I not saying it need to be a kryptonite style flaw. Just something to soften the blow.

Like

Only one in five marine can receive the Primaris.

The Primaries are subject to ageing like the thunder warriors.

The are resisted to psycho-indoctrination so they are slow learner, but master of what they have learned.

Anything minor that can bring them back in the theme.

 

Because that would be the real reason to give the a flaw. The theme.

If you want technological leaps and bounds, look too the Tau.

Edited July 27, 2017 by slitth

[Schlitzaf]

Did you read what I wrote? I didn't say Primaris should be flawless perfect in every way. But why should every Primaris be flawed in the same way?

 

Why should a Black Templar Intercessor and Blood Angel Intercessor both suffer body degredation. It's been mentioned the Blood Angel Primaris don't suffer the Black Rage. That is just as much a flaw in this scenerio as having the Black Rage. Suddenly part of what makes the Blood Angels who they are is the drive to do 'good' and their strive to achieve perfection/victory. To leave their mark because one day they might lose themselves to their Primarch's death throes overcoming them. Giving a Blood Angel and other Scions of Sanganius a sense of mortality other Marines lack.

 

Primaris of Sanganius Blood don't suffer from that fear. You cannot tell me a chapter whose culture is predicated on said fear would not look down on their new Brothers. Primaris should not be flawless, but what flaws they do have shouldn't be the same one for every chapter. Or if it is there should be a way to slightly change the flaw so that various chapters can have a wide variety of responses. Giving every Primaris a shorter lifespan just makes them BloodAngel esque with the Actual Blood Angel Primaris ironically suffering the least.

 

So why should a Primaris of the Black Templars have the same flaw as Blood Angel or Space Wolf Primaris?

Edited July 27, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Skaorn]

While I don't think there needs to be a necessary flaw per say, I do think there should be a cost to their production as I said earlier about making the process more lethal to humans and potential lethal when converting regular SM. There should be an apparent increased cost to getting better marines.

 

That said, the cursed foundings kind of established that tinkering with the Emperor's work will end badly. This seems like a lot of hubris on Bobby's and Cawl's end, so it seems appropriate that they get bitten in the but like what usually happens in 40K.

[slitth]

Did you read what I wrote? I didn't say Primaris should be flawless perfect in every way. But why should every Primaris be flawed in the same way?

 

Why should a Black Templar Intercessor and Blood Angel Intercessor both suffer body degredation. It's been mentioned the Blood Angel Primaris don't suffer the Black Rage. That is just as much a flaw in this scenerio as having the Black Rage. Suddenly part of what makes the Blood Angels who they are is the drive to do 'good' and their strive to achieve perfection/victory. To leave their mark because one day they might lose themselves to their Primarch's death throes overcoming them. Giving a Blood Angel and other Scions of Sanganius a sense of mortality other Marines lack.

 

Primaris of Sanganius Blood don't suffer from that fear. You cannot tell me a chapter whose culture is predicated on said fear would not look down on their new Brothers. Primaris should not be flawless, but what flaws they do have shouldn't be the same one for every chapter. Or if it is there should be a way to slightly change the flaw so that various chapters can have a wide variety of responses. Giving every Primaris a shorter lifespan just makes them BloodAngel esque with the Actual Blood Angel Primaris ironically suffering the least.

 

So why should a Primaris of the Black Templars have the same flaw as Blood Angel or Space Wolf Primaris?

 

Because they have the same extra added to the make up.

 

The Magnificat (The Amplifier) would be a good source of a hidden flaw.

[Wargamer]

So someone pointed out that Space Marines supposedly have no flaw. However, they do have a sizable flaw; the scale of the setting.

 

The Space Marines are few in number - less than one per Imperial World. While you can bring the hammer down on a specific foe with them, there are going to be many others that slip by.

 

Ironically, as TTS noted, the Chapter structure is also a weakness. Chapters are autonomous fighting units and there does not appear to be a cross-Chapter hierarchy. While most Chapters would defer authority if the likes of Calgar or Dante rocks up, who exactly takes charge when a bunch of no-name Chapters ally together? Well... it seems quite often nobody does. You basically wind up with FPS syndrome; a bunch of people all on the same team, but not communicating much beyond their own circle of friends.

 

There's also the fact that, unlike the Legions, Astartes Chapters are mid-tier surgical strike force with no reliable way of dealing with the biggest gribblies of the 40K universe. You can throw Astartes at a lot of foes, but if Titans start showing up they will have to run away and let someone else deal with it (First Founding Chapters a possible exception).

 

And of course, the Primaris Legions seem to be trying very hard to remove all these problems...

[Schlitzaf]

@Silith

 

Wouldn't that be more than a tad...dull? Why not have it based on the new implants interaction with the various Gene-Seed perhaps while it gets rid of the Black Rage, it makes a Primaris Scion of Sanganius more apathetic or less driven over time. Have the IF Primaris, be from the 'original' chapter of Imperial Fist. Have the Black Templar Primaris been Veterans as befit the original BTs from Heresy/Great Crusade and suddenly be demoted to 'neophyte' etc. Have the flaw be one size fits would be terribly boring. Unless said flaw was vague enough it could be modified to fit any chapters established lore, characteristics, or narrative focus.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[slitth]

@Silith

 

Wouldn't that be more than a tad...dull? Why not have it based on the new implants interaction with the various Gene-Seed perhaps while it gets rid of the Black Rage, it makes a Primaris Scion of Sanganius more apathetic or less driven over time. Have the IF Primaris, be from the 'original' chapter of Imperial Fist. Have the Black Templar Primaris been Veterans as befit the original BTs from Heresy/Great Crusade and suddenly be demoted to 'neophyte' etc. Have the flaw be one size fits would be terribly boring. Unless said flaw was vague enough it could be modified to fit any chapters established lore, characteristics, or narrative focus.

 

Sure, I never said anything about them all having the same flaw or problem.

Just that I feel they need something lest that perfect, because having super perfect space marines appear from the deepest of Mars is really dull and lame in my book.

 

Besides do we even need the Primaris marines?

Could Cawl not just have invented the Primaris amour line, a line that was not generally approved because it based on captured xenos tech.

That would have given us the same models and gear.

But I find it far more believable that captured Eldar, Tau and Necron tech would help produce better power armor that makes Astartes harder to kill, than someone making a better Astartes that the Emperor could.

After all Cawl could have a long time to loot the xenos, but would find it hard to get his designs approved without the support of a primarch.

[Skaorn]

Also Fabius Bile is another example of tinkering with SM and them having serious flaws.

[bluntblade]

I reckon the Black Rage should be beyond any genetic tinkering to banish. It's the byproduct of psychic trauma, after all.

[Verger]

A Primaris Marine's failings are going to be the same as a basic Space Marine's.  Beyond the super-human facade, they're still mortal men inside and are prone to all those same failings.  They are not clones and kinks from their own DNA and whatever else is buried in their subconscious will eventually make them fall, the same as any other potential traitor.

[Adeptus]

Things, and people, are only interesting through their relationship to other things and other people.

 

Normal marines are contrasted to normal humans in the 41st millennium, and there's a lot of interesting ground to cover there.

 

Primaris marines, however, are contrasted to normal marines and there is effectively zero interesting ground to cover there. They are just Marines +1 and the only scope for drama is the normal high-school nonsense of "why don't they like me?"

 

Their introduction flies in the face of everything we know about the Imperium of Man, which is grating enough, but the big boy scouts don't even have the saving grace of being interesting after their arrival!

 

The real world has flaws. Flaws make things interesting and gritty. Space Marines have flaws. But Primaris just have the same flaws (and in some cases not even those) but they're simply better. Bigger, stronger, faster, but with no flaws to counter those strengths.

 

Boring.

[Plaguecaster]

I find the whole disliking for no flaws pretty stupid and pointless, who in their right mind would release a brand new poster riddled with flaws right on release it was the same with stormcast everyone hated them for the lack of anything but all it took was some fleshing out over time and they became a lot more interesting. To be fair the could easily have flaws why not wait for some more fluff to flesh them out before completely writing them off, normal marines have had 30+ years to completely flesh them out with various novels, codex books, and other material it's a lot harder to do that with new version of marines that has barely been out for a year :D

 

To be fair even with the flaws marines are still pretty boring the wolf loving Viking wolves are boring , the noble yet secretly angry red blood angels are boring, the religious fanatic black Templars are boring , the dull as a rock imperial fists are boring and don't even get me started on Ultramarines :D we all know the outcry from people if Primaris shared similar flaws with normal marines :D

Edited July 27, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Adeptus]

If you look at any person or group of people in popular fiction, the interest is always linked to their drawbacks, faults or flaws. Jedi are a dead order, Iron Man is an egotist, Wonder Woman was naive, Space Marines are numerically inferior space fascists.

 

And importantly, those flaws and faults are highlighted through the relationship between the people in question and other people or things. We only see Tony Starks monstrous ego through his conflict with other members of the Avengers, Diana Prince only seems sheltered and naive when we see her interact with the modern world, etc.

 

And Marines only seem powerful in contrast to Guardsmen (or other 'mortal' warriors) and similarly, we only see their flaws through that contrast. We see how dehumanised they are, the price they pay to become Astartes, the things expected of them, their crippling numeric inferiority and glacially slow recruitment process, etc. And then Primaris come on the scene with all the same drawbacks, but they're just... better than the other guys. What's interesting about that? What did they have to give up that normal Astartes didn't? What price do they pay that normal Astartes don't? Nothing. And consequently, that's the level of interest they generate. Nothing.

[Schlitzaf]

Your argument could be boiled down to "Superman a Bad Characted because he is the perfect Boy Scout." Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character and the universe.

 

Primaris you said are flawless. But just take the Blood Angel Primaris they lack the Black Rage. Which if you scroll up I iterated above exactly how not having something like the Black Rage is a flaw onto itself. A Black Templar Primaris might have come from a time BT's still had Librarians. And their incorporation into the chapter will be met with serious friction potentially. Additionally BT Primaris are coming in as essentially Initaites (a Battle Brother) without having gone through tne Neophyte procsss. Those Primaris might be viewed with disdain for having skipped a step or not given the approval of a Battle brother as is Templar Traditon to become an Initaite. Dark Angel Primaris might not be in on the little secret of what happened at Caliban. A Space Wolf Primaris would be inserted into a culture of constant feasting, merrymaking and friendship. Beside his own squad wouldn't know any of his Battle Brothers.

 

If Primaris had a flaw it's that they are Primaris. They are Space Marines but not. They will always stand apart from their Battle Brothers. Even second generation Primaris will have that issue. For as new Primaris are created, the process won't be overnight and 'original' Space Marines will be still be in the process of creation.

 

These new guys will always be different from their battle Brothers unable to be a real brother. Despite being one at the same time. Until GW releases more information, the greatest flaw of Primaris is also their strength. They are Primaris. Always standing apart from the Brothers even as they stand side by side.

[The Unseen]

Your argument could be boiled down to "Superman a Bad Characted because he is the perfect Boy Scout." Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character and the universe.

 

I stopped reading the wall of text after this line. Cause yeah, superman is a pretty :cuss character, and only the best comic book writers ever have made him even halfway interesting or readable.

 

You do realize that's been the primary reason people dislike Superman since like, forever ago in pop culture years right? Hes boring and over powered.

 

Most of all Superman stories EVER written have struggled with the fact that supes is better than everyone at everything without trying, while being a moral compass so accurate it's never wrong in canon. (So :cuss like injustice doesn't count)

 

So, most of the stories focusing on him are boring as hell, silly as all get out to try and produce interest, or terribly written; and sometimes all 3.

 

It's the same with Primaris marines.

[Servant of Dante]

I have to agree with Adeptus here. It's not really that Primaris in a vacuum are boring, it's that they fill the same story role as Marines, except they're +2 to the Marine's +1 and (imo) they don't fit with the themes and tone of the setting. They're uninteresting and annoying (to me) because they feel like a Deus Ex Machina device and they are just marines, but more marine than marines.

 

The defense of them seems to be that the flaw is they don't fit in. Maybe that's enough for some people, but for me . . . yeah still boring and not why I like 40K. Just my opinion.

 

I really do hope GW and the BL do some really cool stuff, but as it stands, I'm still feeling pretty meh about these guys.

[Adeptus]

Your argument could be boiled down to "Superman a Bad Characted because he is the perfect Boy Scout." Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character and the universe.

This is a bit exciting because there's actually some themes in here we can unpack.

 

Superman can be an interesting character (but usually isn't) because he's an individual. Last son of a dead planet, a god walking amongst men, etc. THAT'S what makes him stand out, and it's the cross he has to bear that makes him interesting.

 

Now, imagine if DC decided to create a badguy made of pure kryptonite who beats the snot out of Superman, and it's the closest the world has ever come to destruction, but suddenly a new Superman appears! Who has been here the whole time, but just like, taking a nap! And he's stronger and faster than Clarke! And just a bit taller! And with whiter teeth and nicer hair! And he's immune to kryptonite and has no weaknesses and he beats the badguy and we're all saved the end YAAAAY!

 

It's terrible. Just really bad storytelling. It removes any sense of struggle and agency from Clarke, and adds a new character who has nothing to add to the story except for being better at being Superman than Clarke ever was. Now, there's more stuff at play here since DC has built up what, fifty years of history with Superman, and there's a lot more room for storytelling since Clarke is an individual and not a group, and you could have this interesting relationship between new Superman and old Superman and how the world views it all, blah blah blah, but we're talking about the 41st Millennium and not the DC universe.

 

There's two distinct elements to consider in 40K, and the first is the setting and the second is potential narratives within that setting. There's plenty of scope for really great narratives, using the Primaris marines within the 40K setting, for precisely the reasons you've outlined. Acceptance, the need for the new guys to prove themselves, resentment, a fear of being replaced or made redundant, fear of change, internal politics and power shifts, so on and so forth. None of this is new, or unique to Primaris marines, but they are themes that can be explored when featuring them in stories.

 

But for the setting, Primaris marines suck. They don't do ANYTHING except make normal Astartes look second rate. They aren't more expensive or difficult to produce, they don't use wargear that's harder to produce, they don't have exacting requirements that significantly impact the number of successful applicants, there's just NOTHING. And precisely because Astartes already exist, all the Primaris are doing is covering old ground that we've already covered a thousand times before. We know what a Marine is, what he does, where he comes from and how he fights and what motivates him, etc etc. There's nothing new or interesting here, they're just a bit taller with fancier pants on.

 

I could forgive their forced, hamfisted inclusion in the setting if they had something interesting to offer me, like a greatly reduced lifespan or a fatal weakness to Chaos or highly sensitive reaction to things like the Black Rage or Canis Helix, or if the rift between the new and old was so pronounced they couldn't be mixed in the same Chapter, but there's just nothing there, and for a setting as deep and rich as the 41st Millennium it's just a tragic, wasted opportunity.

 

Imagine if we'd had like, a new mini-heresy and fully half the Primaris marines had turned to Chaos! How much cooler would that be?! Or the entire first generation had gone insane and had to be put down, and the second generations were kept segregated because of it, or just ANYTHING to make me think "Wow, these guys are interesting!"

[Plaguecaster]

Can we not drag comic book heroes into this as nothing reeks of biased personal opinion more than dragging up who is the cooler super hero that way only leads to the realm of fanboy madness

[Schlitzaf]

Adeptus but on track those personal narratives are what makes it interesting to me! The whole idea of "There are less Space Marines than their are Imperial Planets but nonetheless they must be sufficient." Makes every Marines a hero in their own story. Every guy counts. Yet in the same way no one matters or count. Save for Big E on his Golden Throne. And if they do "mini Horus Heresy", I'd find it terribly dull. Why should retread narrative ground we already covered. Unless they introduce 10-20 Primaris characters, half of whom betray the Imperium (even more blatant I know), why should I care? Those stories about Primaris falling to chaos that has already happened.

 

Having the Marines go insane, remember "Nevermore"? These are plot points already touched on and done before. What we haven't seen is Marine 2.0 not failing. But in not failing once again we have our personal plot everyone will be constantly watching and expecting Primaris to fail. Despite never failing. A Primaris always be viewed with suspicion. Instead of artificially failing, because Biological failure. They perhaps fail because everyone even one of their two creators expect them to fail. Why should GW force a flaw onto us, why can't we choose our own flaw to fit our chapters or otherwise narrative? I tangented. But why separate the universal and personal?

 

Maybe it's because I am a gamer first.Partly the reason I welcome Primaris is the base MEQ stat is worth nothing anymore. So yes Primaris are Marines +1. But Marines are no longer sufficient. Or atleast it feels that way on the tabletop. And Primaris allowing us to finally play catch up is welcoming

Edited July 28, 2017 by Brother Casman
Removed Superman discussion

[the jeske]

 

 

In all I don´t know why so many are so upset about the fluff apart from that it´s badly written and a bit rushed

You appear to have identified one of the big reasons.

 

See I dont get this argument about rushed etc. This edition was suppose to be in testing for 2 years. And fluff/concept art/etc are created way before rules are, so GW had more then 2 years to solidify the stuff they wanted from primaris[i mean dark empire didn't write itself 2 weeks before the new edition hit the stores]. So the fluff is not rushed, and it is exactly the way GW wanted it to be.

[Volt]

They're marinier-marines, why would they have flaws? You don't build a new MBT to replace an old MBT model yet somehow the new MBT has weaknesses by the old one. A normal Astartes is flatly superior to a human in every possible way outside of continuing the species, and the Primaris are the same, except for Astartes. There's no reason for them to have exploitable flaws. I also don't see how anything else in the Imperium comes with some crippling, exploitable flaw when the Imperium has stood for ten thousand years unbowed. There isn't some crippling weakness to Baneblades, Leman Russes, or Warlord Titans. 

 

Besides, having to put a giant glaring weakness in something, emotional of physical, just makes you a bad writer. Good flaws are like impurities in steel. Virtually unnoticeable except to the untrained eye, and will spell disaster when struck in such a way that it buckles.

 

 

 

Face it: Space Marines have no weaknesses. Yes, they're ambitious and chaos can exploit that, but that's no different from any human. Demanding that Primaris Marines have some fundamental flaw is absurd, and ultimately just stems from a distaste for the whole concept of primaris marines and a desire to somehow denigrate them. 

 

People that Primaris are somehow bad before the range even launched and now they're annoyed that GW isn't giving them fuel to feed that opinion. 

 

Not quite, no. Space Marines do have weaknesses, although less than "regular" humans admittedly. Their main weakness is faulty gene seed, and the associated risk of mutation. They are also very limited in numbers, compared to imperial guards, it takes time and resources to make a space marine.

 

It's one of the main pillars of any grimdark story, nothing is perfect, no-one really succeeds.

 

On that basis, primaris must have a flaw, or they'll essentially compromise the setting simply by... winning. I don't dislike primaris, I'm actually quite liking them. The models are nice, and although their background is currently weak, it can only improve with time (much like that of regular marines incidentally). Something as simple as "primaris take three times as long to make as regular marines" would do.  

 

Except mutations are rarer and less devastating in marines than normal humans, and their numbers are an artificial number imposed by Guilliman instead of some weakness of recruitment. You could certainly produce a horde of marines, billions even, by using vat-clones to mass-produce geneseed and sifting out any genetic abnormalities resulting from the rapid propagation. 

 

 

Also I think some people should actually read the Iliad. Achilles wasn't invincible and his heel wasn't some critical weakness. Achilles' weakness was his hubris driving him to war and ignoring the will of the Gods in the first place, and anger preventing him from finding peace after the death of his lover Patroclus.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Volt