Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[Adeptus]

Adeptus but on track those personal narratives are what makes it interesting to me!

Then I think this is why our opinions differ so much. The little stories told within the larger narrative are largely irrelevant to me since I concentrate on my own little stories. I don't really care what Roboute is up to or what the interactions between Primaris and normal Astartes are like, since that's all happening somewhere else, "off screen" as far as my own characters are concerned. What I care about is how the different factions relate to each other and to the setting, and how that impacts my ability to create narratives within it. We're basically looking at the same issue from opposite sides, I think.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Brother Casman
Removed Superman discussion

[Huggtand]

 

 

 

In all I don´t know why so many are so upset about the fluff apart from that it´s badly written and a bit rushed

You appear to have identified one of the big reasons.

 

See I dont get this argument about rushed etc. This edition was suppose to be in testing for 2 years. And fluff/concept art/etc are created way before rules are, so GW had more then 2 years to solidify the stuff they wanted from primaris[i mean dark empire didn't write itself 2 weeks before the new edition hit the stores]. So the fluff is not rushed, and it is exactly the way GW wanted it to be.

 

 

I could have been a bit clearer

 

I´m sure as you say that the preparations (concepts, sculpting, story writing etc) have been in the works for many years. The problem as I feel is that the buildup and presentation for the audience was very short for such a big event or change in setting. If they had done it with a longer build up they could gradually cemented both the fluff and models in a better manner.

 

Say for example that we had a story of the meeting between RG and Cawl. First in M31-32 when they are planning the project and see their resoning. Follow Cawl in his work, his struggle with the rest of the mecanicus (he has the potential to be as an interesting character as Land) and his ultimate success. When we next hook up with gathering storm we have a background for what is happening and an established connection to the people.

When RG wakes Calw could present him with a first batch of primaris and we could follow their training and struggle with no connection to their parent chapter. The conflict i view between RG and Cawl would be perfect here also. Next RG plans his new crusade and gives go to expand the primaris project.

 

With this build up we as readers could have an interesting story as they ease in the primaris. Now it was more like Now RG is awake and here is suddenly a new army of primaris and now its two hundred years later in three rapid blinks. That´s what I feel is rushed

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I'm actually laughing as I go through this thread... imho, AD-B had the right idea to bail before things keep going around in a circle, but I'm a Templar first and foremost, so I accept any challenge no matter the odds...

 

Primaris Marines, in all sense and presentation is what they appear to be... not perfections, nor imperfections, not Space Marines +1 nor equivalents of Superman...

 

THEY ARE LITERALLY REPLACEMENTS AND BOOSTERS SO THAT 3rd PARTY GROUPS AND TRUE-SCALE MARINES CAN BE OWNED BY GW

 

The fluff will probably have little to do with it, or maybe GW is testing the waters and the backlash of how people have reacted to Primaris, but I expect by the start of a 9th or 10th edition that there will no longer be the current existing line for the plastic Space Marines... it's an easy way for GW to make people buy GW and not some 3rd party group, and people who true-scale Marines, which are plenty btw, will no longer have issues as they can just use Primaris for their projects...

 

GW won't put new flaws in... they will show to have similar traits to how they are before, and their "predecessors" flaws will be shown to be controllable for the new Primaris Marines in the forth-coming future... for example... Death Co. are literally mind-less in their rage and will kill anything friend or foe with their berzerker like rage... Primaris Blood Angels will have that capability, except it will be absolutely controllable... Wulfen? Primaris Space Wolves will be able to control that at will and turn into giant Space Warewolf...

There will probably be a fluff piece about some Space Marines trying to fight against the change into Primaris, but Guilliman and maybe another returning Primarch will stifle it down so that those "classic" Marines will be eventually mind-wiped and turned into Primaris Marines, and just to balance things out, Chaos will somehow abduct Cawl and Bile will be creating some form of Chaos Primaris Marines, or the Chaos Gods will somehow create super Chaos Marines just to balance out the scale difference and again, avoid making people purchase 3rd party stuff... so that they can monopolize GW miniatures to just GW... 

 

Then Orks will get the same treatment and they'll probably go through the model line or add more Primaris stuff like they've always done with 40k... so what happens with our Space Marines in the future? you can either use them with Primaris rules, or as GW has always intended with models that are out of phase, put them into storage... it will be similar to 2nd ed. Rhinos and Land Raiders, or Terminators... they won't be completely illegal, and you can play with them... but they look out of scale and old compared to the new guys...

 

As for fluff, Primaris won't have flaws... the age of flaws in everything is slowly going away with the younger generation, which GW is slowly aiming their business ventures at... (selling GW miniatures in Toy Stores is a big step in that direction) they will eventually turn Primaris Marines into something akin to superheroes (which they already are) with characteristics that we may have seen as flaws but they'll turn into their advantage... just so they can fight their super villain equivalents, but still always came back on top...

 

BL writers though will be a different matter... we know that majority of those on the younger generation that GW will be targeting will be reading less novels and will focus more on games, so that will be where the brunt of story telling will be at... they will probably focus more on the flaws of the Imperium and the Primariss there... or maybe that Cawl didn't care what Guilliman thought and made some Primaris with Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors or Night Lords geneseed and they turned bad... but as for GW, their Primaris won't have flaws... they need them to rake new gamers in...

Edited July 28, 2017 by Marshal_Roujakis

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm actually laughing as I go through this thread... imho, AD-B had the right idea to bail before things keep going around in a circle, but I'm a Templar first and foremost, so I accept any challenge no matter the odds...

 

Primaris Marines, in all sense and presentation is what they appear to be... not perfections, nor imperfections, not Space Marines +1 nor equivalents of Superman...

 

THEY ARE LITERALLY REPLACEMENTS AND BOOSTERS SO THAT 3rd PARTY GROUPS AND TRUE-SCALE MARINES CAN BE OWNED BY GW

 

The fluff will probably have little to do with it, or maybe GW is testing the waters and the backlash of how people have reacted to Primaris, but I expect by the start of a 9th or 10th edition that there will no longer be the current existing line for the plastic Space Marines... it's an easy way for GW to make people buy GW and not some 3rd party group, and people who true-scale Marines, which are plenty btw, will no longer have issues as they can just use Primaris for their projects...

 

GW won't put new flaws in... they will show to have similar traits to how they are before, and their "predecessors" flaws will be shown to be controllable for the new Primaris Marines in the forth-coming future... for example... Death Co. are literally mind-less in their rage and will kill anything friend or foe with their berzerker like rage... Primaris Blood Angels will have that capability, except it will be absolutely controllable... Wulfen? Primaris Space Wolves will be able to control that at will and turn into giant Space Warewolf...

There will probably be a fluff piece about some Space Marines trying to fight against the change into Primaris, but Guilliman and maybe another returning Primarch will stifle it down so that those "classic" Marines will be eventually mind-wiped and turned into Primaris Marines, and just to balance things out, Chaos will somehow abduct Cawl and Bile will be creating some form of Chaos Primaris Marines, or the Chaos Gods will somehow create super Chaos Marines just to balance out the scale difference and again, avoid making people purchase 3rd party stuff... so that they can monopolize GW miniatures to just GW... 

 

Then Orks will get the same treatment and they'll probably go through the model line or add more Primaris stuff like they've always done with 40k... so what happens with our Space Marines in the future? you can either use them with Primaris rules, or as GW has always intended with models that are out of phase, put them into storage... it will be similar to 2nd ed. Rhinos and Land Raiders, or Terminators... they won't be completely illegal, and you can play with them... but they look out of scale and old compared to the new guys...

 

As for fluff, Primaris won't have flaws... the age of flaws in everything is slowly going away with the younger generation, which GW is slowly aiming their business ventures at... (selling GW miniatures in Toy Stores is a big step in that direction) they will eventually turn Primaris Marines into something akin to superheroes (which they already are) with characteristics that we may have seen as flaws but they'll turn into their advantage... just so they can fight their super villain equivalents, but still always came back on top...

 

BL writers though will be a different matter... we know that majority of those on the younger generation that GW will be targeting will be reading less novels and will focus more on games, so that will be where the brunt of story telling will be at... they will probably focus more on the flaws of the Imperium and the Primariss there... or maybe that Cawl didn't care what Guilliman thought and made some Primaris with Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors or Night Lords geneseed and they turned bad... but as for GW, their Primaris won't have flaws... they need them to rake new gamers in...

You have described the death of 40k as a setting. Not just as an interesting one, but the death of the main binding overarc - Space Marines with their "flavours" being blanded into a "better" non-existence. 

[Adeptus]

You have described the death of 40k as a setting. Not just as an interesting one, but the death of the main binding overarc - Space Marines with their "flavours" being blanded into a "better" non-existence.

He's not wrong though. Lore aside, the Primaris are undoubtedly an attempt by GW to test the waters with regard to a wholesale replacement of the old Marine line. If the Primaris meet their sales targets, then the old Marines will be slowly faded out and more and more Primaris kits released. The Primaris models aren't here because GW felt they were needed in the setting, which is obvious due to their clumsy implementation. They're here because GW thought a new type of Marine was the easiest way to re-boot the Marine line.

[Wargamer]

You've done a fine job of convincing me not to buy Primaris. Well done.

[Adeptus]

You've done a fine job of convincing me not to buy Primaris. Well done.

lol.

 

It's a shame too because if they'd just released them as a new armour mark, increased the size a bit but not too much (ala Deathwatch models) then I probably would have bought them! But with the clumsy lore behind them and the egregious scale "error" (I consider it to be an error, others don't) the Primaris marines won't be making an appearance alongside any of my Imperial forces.

[Brother Christopher]

 

You've done a fine job of convincing me not to buy Primaris. Well done.

lol.

 

It's a shame too because if they'd just released them as a new armour mark, increased the size a bit but not too much (ala Deathwatch models) then I probably would have bought them! But with the clumsy lore behind them and the egregious scale "error" (I consider it to be an error, others don't) the Primaris marines won't be making an appearance alongside any of my Imperial forces.

 

An off-topic contribution, but a community-building one - so there might be some therapeutic potential in this post.

 

This are exactly my thoughts and regrets.

 

I'd be more than happy to add some uber-plasma, fire support Marines to my army if they simply used an upgraded, slightly larger mark of armour. Not Space Marine Ogryns. And despite that I quite like most of the new armour mark's aesthetic and new vehicles, I'll make an effort not to buy them.

 

Sorry for the off-top! I shall go and repent now.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Brother Cristopher

[D3L]

You've done a fine job of convincing me not to buy Primaris. Well done.

join the long war, brother!

Edited July 28, 2017 by D3L

[Trevak Dal]

Maybe a shorter lifespan is a failsafe against developing traitorous habits? Worked pretty good for the thunder warriors

[the jeske]

Ah ok Hugg, I get you with the fluff being bad writen for vets. I just think, that in my not so humble opinion, it is the way that it is on purpose.

[derLumpi]

 

You have described the death of 40k as a setting. Not just as an interesting one, but the death of the main binding overarc - Space Marines with their "flavours" being blanded into a "better" non-existence.

If the Primaris meet their sales targets, then the old Marines will be slowly faded out and more and more Primaris kits released. 

By the Emperor I hope they fail! 

[Extropian]

This has been an interesting thread for me, since the Primaris models are one of the things that has brought me back to 40K. To me, the proportions look SO much better than the old deformed marines that they actually sucked me back in.

 

Now the fluff....thats pretty rough. Bad writing and bad plot so far. But in all honesty i found most of the 7th fluff awful too (Gathering Storm / The Primarch and that whole arc was just....eugh. Terrible. Pure fanservice with poor writing at best). I don't actually consider the Primaris/8th edition stuff to be a major downturn from that, more of a continuation of general awfulness.

 

The big difference for me of course is that i don't currently have a marine army, so i don't actually stand to "lose" (a relative word, since models will stay useable) anything. I think perhaps that's why to me from a model point of view the Primaris are just all positive.

 

Anyway, as I said it has been interesting seeing the different opinions on this!

Edited July 28, 2017 by Extropian

[slitth]

They're marinier-marines, why would they have flaws? You don't build a new MBT to replace an old MBT model yet somehow the new MBT has weaknesses by the old one. A normal Astartes is flatly superior to a human in every possible way outside of continuing the species, and the Primaris are the same, except for Astartes. There's no reason for them to have exploitable flaws. I also don't see how anything else in the Imperium comes with some crippling, exploitable flaw when the Imperium has stood for ten thousand years unbowed. There isn't some crippling weakness to Baneblades, Leman Russes, or Warlord Titans.

 

Besides, having to put a giant glaring weakness in something, emotional of physical, just makes you a bad writer. Good flaws are like impurities in steel. Virtually unnoticeable except to the untrained eye, and will spell disaster when struck in such a way that it buckles.

If thing are going badly for your faction, it might have the knowledge to make a better MBT, but it may lack means to make enough of the new MBT to make a difference.

WWII is a nice example of this.

 

And yes there is a crippling weakness with Baneblades and Warlords Titans. You can afford to lose them.

Same goes for space marines, they are powerful and strong. But lost a company of them and the chapter in on the back foot working hard to regain their losses.

Just look at the Crimson Fists. Each casualty they suffer is a step backwards.

 

Now if Belisarius Cawl hade taken a some Primaris with him to Cadia, they might have show to be better and tougher than the old space marines.

But without the battle experience of the old marine, they are not an acceptable replacement.

So the Primaris would have to be integrated with old chapters to be an improvement.

 

Then WG could have sold some Easy To Build: Primaris Space Marine Intercessors early.

 

I'm actually laughing as I go through this thread... imho, AD-B had the right idea to bail before things keep going around in a circle, but I'm a Templar first and foremost, so I accept any challenge no matter the odds...

 

Primaris Marines, in all sense and presentation is what they appear to be... not perfections, nor imperfections, not Space Marines +1 nor equivalents of Superman...

 

THEY ARE LITERALLY REPLACEMENTS AND BOOSTERS SO THAT 3rd PARTY GROUPS AND TRUE-SCALE MARINES CAN BE OWNED BY GW

 

The fluff will probably have little to do with it, or maybe GW is testing the waters and the backlash of how people have reacted to Primaris, but I expect by the start of a 9th or 10th edition that there will no longer be the current existing line for the plastic Space Marines... it's an easy way for GW to make people buy GW and not some 3rd party group, and people who true-scale Marines, which are plenty btw, will no longer have issues as they can just use Primaris for their projects...

 

GW won't put new flaws in... they will show to have similar traits to how they are before, and their "predecessors" flaws will be shown to be controllable for the new Primaris Marines in the forth-coming future... for example... Death Co. are literally mind-less in their rage and will kill anything friend or foe with their berzerker like rage... Primaris Blood Angels will have that capability, except it will be absolutely controllable... Wulfen? Primaris Space Wolves will be able to control that at will and turn into giant Space Warewolf...

There will probably be a fluff piece about some Space Marines trying to fight against the change into Primaris, but Guilliman and maybe another returning Primarch will stifle it down so that those "classic" Marines will be eventually mind-wiped and turned into Primaris Marines, and just to balance things out, Chaos will somehow abduct Cawl and Bile will be creating some form of Chaos Primaris Marines, or the Chaos Gods will somehow create super Chaos Marines just to balance out the scale difference and again, avoid making people purchase 3rd party stuff... so that they can monopolize GW miniatures to just GW...

 

Then Orks will get the same treatment and they'll probably go through the model line or add more Primaris stuff like they've always done with 40k... so what happens with our Space Marines in the future? you can either use them with Primaris rules, or as GW has always intended with models that are out of phase, put them into storage... it will be similar to 2nd ed. Rhinos and Land Raiders, or Terminators... they won't be completely illegal, and you can play with them... but they look out of scale and old compared to the new guys...

 

As for fluff, Primaris won't have flaws... the age of flaws in everything is slowly going away with the younger generation, which GW is slowly aiming their business ventures at... (selling GW miniatures in Toy Stores is a big step in that direction) they will eventually turn Primaris Marines into something akin to superheroes (which they already are) with characteristics that we may have seen as flaws but they'll turn into their advantage... just so they can fight their super villain equivalents, but still always came back on top...

 

BL writers though will be a different matter... we know that majority of those on the younger generation that GW will be targeting will be reading less novels and will focus more on games, so that will be where the brunt of story telling will be at... they will probably focus more on the flaws of the Imperium and the Primariss there... or maybe that Cawl didn't care what Guilliman thought and made some Primaris with Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors or Night Lords geneseed and they turned bad... but as for GW, their Primaris won't have flaws... they need them to rake new gamers in...

Some lore flaws / limitations do not have to show up in rules or on the models.

For example there is mention in the old rules that you couldn't have a army of 2000 Ultramarines.

Or that you have to think about what kind of magazine a rifle has on the model, because in the lore it has a higher charge to jam.

 

But the lore might inspire you to do so. You might feel it improper to have too many marine painted with the 2nd company colours.

Or to have a Librarian in your army. (I have a feeling that a Primaris Librarian in Black Templars colours would consisted heretical)

 

Now the more basic and natural flaw of a Primaris marine would be that they have the tactical understanding that is below that of a Neophyte.

 

 

This has been an interesting thread for me, since the Primaris models are one of the things that has brought me back to 40K. To me, the proportions look SO much better than the old deformed marines that they actually sucked me back in.

 

Now the fluff....thats pretty rough. Bad writing and bad plot so far. But in all honesty i found most of the 7th fluff awful too (Gathering Storm / The Primarch and that whole arc was just....eugh. Terrible. Pure fanservice with poor writing at best). I don't actually consider the Primaris/8th edition stuff to be a major downturn from that, more of a continuation of general awfulness.

 

The big difference for me of course is that i don't currently have a marine army, so i don't actually stand to "lose" (a relative word, since models will stay useable) anything. I think perhaps that's why to me from a model point of view the Primaris are just all positive.

 

Anyway, as I said it has been interesting seeing the different opinions on this!

I like the models. The models are cool in my opinion.

 

I would have love them even more if they have come with following message.

"Behold the new power armour variant, first in the two technological advantages that will help the Astartes turn back the tide.

It not only show of the power of the Imperium, but also shows the true size of the Astartes might.

Something that we show in every Astartes line as we progress."

Edited July 28, 2017 by Brother Casman

[Extropian]

Would that make a difference if they still phased out the older models though? it'd still leave the scale issue that a lot of people hate.

 

Personally i'm mostly just ignoring the Primaris fluff, and assuming these are correctly scaled Marines with new toys ;)

[Skaorn]

Your argument could be boiled down to "Superman a Bad Characted because he is the perfect Boy Scout." Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character and the universe.

There seems to be some Kryptonite to your argument. Superman is a character that has a ton of flaws that are built in and readily apparent that good writers take advantage of to make Superman interesting. It's usually when his morality is tested or he's forced to overcome something that he can't just out power. Doomsday, Superboy Prime, and Dark Seid are all more powerful and all villains that heroes have to overcome. Lex Luther is his nemesis though as he specifically lacks the weakness that Superman has while only really surpassing him in terms of intelligence. if you don't have a challenge a protagonist has to strive to overcome then the story becomes and 80s Cartoon with the good guys laughing at the bad guys attempts to do evil that fail completely.

 

Now you're probably going to say that the Primaris still have their powerful enemies to overcome, which is true. But the introduction of the Primaris ignores some of the biggest key challenges to the setting for humanity. The effect is jarring and doesn't fit the setting. You wouldn't add Superman to 40K, not because you couldn't shoehorn his powers in, but because his humanity would be entirely wrong for the setting. The Tau got this same response when they came out because plenty of people thought they were too "good" despite being imperialists that employed cannibals. Is it so wrong to want things to counterbalance the sudden surprise. technological advancements and hope the Primaris bring to the grim darkness? I'd have been happy if Cawl had gotten the Primaris up to where they are now and had more improvements planned but the Inquisition grabbed him and exocuted him because they suspected him of using Xenos technology, thus shooting the Imperium in the foot when it had a serious chance to rise above.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Would that make a difference if they still phased out the older models though? it'd still leave the scale issue that a lot of people hate.

 

Personally i'm mostly just ignoring the Primaris fluff, and assuming these are correctly scaled Marines with new toys

 

And this is exactly what GW would have preferred in the long run...

 

The less people would be considerate w/ the fluff, and the more they would accept that there are new models out there for people to purchase the more happier they would all be...

In a sales perspective, Fluff won't sell to younger fanbase, and to even some of the older ones... the visual aesthetics alone would be enough to sell the models and they are just watching the backlash until everyone is pleased and just has accepted their fate...

 

The Primaris will eventually replace the current scale Marines and they would be flawless in fluff and they would be perfect soldiers for the return of Primarchs and demi-gods... then the Emperor would just be placed as a necessary relic of the old-times together with the Space Marines... both in model and in lore... mainly because that would sell...

 

They would literally kill grim-dark, mainly because nowadays, they have to have less grimdark to be able to absorb a wider media and a much bigger target audience... they need new blood and those that are willing to start new armies... that's why instead of updating Orks or Sisters, they released Mechanicus models instead because that's a new faction that they can exploit without any competition nor has anyone have any previous models for it... that's just the same with Primaris, except that they are also essentially phasing out the biggest fanbase of the group and are trying to refill it with both newer fans and previous fans that would need to buy new Space Marines... for example... back in 5th ed. if you were a Dark Angels player w/ countless Space Marines you bought separately, how many Marines from Dark Vengeance would you keep? Not much I reckon... you'd probably keep the special characters, the unique looking bike and trade off the rest...

But the Dark Imperium box has models that are both from a new faction technically speaking... you won't trade off Primaris if you were playing Space Marines, and the Death Guard units are practically from a brand new Death Guard sub-faction... if you were a Space Marine or a Death Guard player, you'd keep both... It was a really smart, yet really sneaky way for GW to ensure that every box of Dark Imperium sent out sells back, and that includes the new cheaper box sets that people would want to buy just because they have Primaris Marines...

 

And then eventually, they'd replace the model for Space Marines entirely, because why would they sell those when some people literally have hundreds of them already... and just release more Primaris stuff.... after all they need to eat too :p

[Schlitzaf]

Skaorn here is where is I think our key disagreement lies "technological advancement and hope the Primaris bring to the Grim Darkness." Sense that hope the Primaris bring is a false hope. It isn't real. They simply gave Imperium a couple hundred maybe a thousand at best. The Grim Dark (or balance of the Primaris) is they are still Space Marine and too few to anything more than slow the tide. The Imperium is still in its deaththroes, its death has only been delayed.

 

Why do we need to counterbalance the hope of the Primaris when the hope they bring is a false one. No more than child's toy they hold at night before going to bed. Do we need a demonstration that reality, of 40K is still one of utterly hopelessness?

 

I personally find it more poetic we don't have a salient demonstration of that. Instead small snippets like Gulliman in Dark Imperium languishing the fact he is celebrating the fact the Imperium has only lost half its worlds. Do that perfectly fine.

 

@Adeptus, why couldn't you adapt those flaws or issues of intergration into your own narrative. Those small stories inform us of the larger universe without showing/telling us of the larger universe

Edited July 28, 2017 by Brother Casman
Removed Superman discussion

[jeffersonian000]

Why has no one mentioned the one flaw in all Primaris that cripples them as a fighting force, the runs contrary to their purpose:

 

Their inherent claustrophobia.

 

No Primaris can hitch a ride in a Rhino, or Land Raider, or Stormraven. They must walk or ride in their special build Grav tanks that can accommodate their crippling weakness. This is a massive flaw that will prevent Primaris from fully replacing Astartes in the Imperium.

 

SJ

[Skaorn]

My main point is that the execution is disruptive to the setting and all it would have taken was some setup and extra work in the narrative to work it in. With all these Primaris reinforcements they could easily add in that Cawl had billions killed in forced conversions to get thousands of Primaris, imply dark secrets about the new technology, talk about chapters that they didn't reinforce in time, and all the other suggestions that have been made. It wouldn't have been hard to do. Instead they are hurray super marines with new toys here to help everyone.

 

On a separate note, would people be truly outraged if GW just decided to update the SM model range with better sculpts? I know CSM players would like this. I think the biggest backlash would come from people upset that SM were getting priority again, but I'd imagine most existing players would either keep what they have, pick up some stuff they like, or go all in. To me the Primaris also seem like a test to see if doing different weapon options will increase sales in a larger line than Tau or Nids, Intercessors have three Bolter options you can choose for them. I'm imagining that they are hoping that this will get them a significant increase in sales for that unit compared to what they get from a standard troop type setup., ideally that a person picks up three times the count for each Bolter type. This could be thrown off by players using "counts as" so it makes sense to start off relatively small in SM to see how it works. Could we be seeing a trend that will carry over to armies like IG or Eldar?

Edited July 28, 2017 by Brother Casman
Removed Superman discussion

[Brother Casman]

There's an awful lot of Superman conversation happening here, when we should be focussed on 40k. =][=

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly? Yes. I haven't bought new Marines sense my army got rolled into Codex Space Marines. And the moment Primaris got announced I got two boxes of Dark Imperium. I didn't buy Centurions, Dread Variant #33 or Terminator Variant #84 (or New Rhino Chassis Variant 76" that is for other reasons), because I felt they are ugly (Centurions and Contemptors) or just too static (Tartaros, and Cataphracti). Also I have been playing the same army sense more or less 4th Edition. (3-4 Crusader Squads, 2 Terminators, 3 Characters, Rhinos and IG/Inquisition). Primaris gave me new models and new units that matched the aesthetic of Marines I imagined had (barring Reivars and their heads).

 

And finally they also gave me new toys for me to play with that I wanted to play it. And toys that didn't replace my Crusader Squads. The new Terminator/Dread variants felt like they were meant to replace my Indomitius (is that the name for the OG Suites?) Assault Terminators or my normal Dreadnought. Intercessors have a clear tactical role and function alongside not in replacement to my Crusader Squads. Reivars aren't scouts, and don't have Jump Packs so I don't feel weird taking them in mass. Aggressors just with a little of arm posing look awesome.

 

So yeah, flavor aside I love Primaris because for the first time sense the 5th Ed BT FAQ giving me 3+ Storm Shields, I finally got some new toys to play with. That and I enjoyed the way their lore neatly complements the lore of my Crusade

Edited July 28, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Volt]

 

 

If thing are going badly for your faction, it might have the knowledge to make a better MBT, but it may lack means to make enough of the new MBT to make a difference.

WWII is a nice example of this.

WWII is only an example of making a new MBT when you need Pilots.

 

And yes there is a crippling weakness with Baneblades and Warlords Titans. You can afford to lose them.

Actually Baneblades are expendable. They are certainly rarer than Leman Russes, but they are not commodities the Imperium is pressed for. But even Titans are still made, the only issue is the time involved in their production and the Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworlds being a bunch of whiny gits who don't want to share.

 

 

Same goes for space marines, they are powerful and strong. But lost a company of them and the chapter in on the back foot working hard to regain their losses.
Just look at the Crimson Fists. Each casualty they suffer is a step backwards.

Which is more thanks to doctrine than any lacking in science. Even then there's so many Chapters that one sustaining heavy losses or being completely wiped out never seems to have much impact on the Imperium's logistics in the first place.

 

Now if Belisarius Cawl hade taken a some Primaris with him to Cadia, they might have show to be better and tougher than the old space marines.
But without the battle experience of the old marine, they are not an acceptable replacement.
So the Primaris would have to be integrated with old chapters to be an improvement.

The average Astartes is under a century old. He does not have, if any, combat experience advantage over the Typical Primaris. Unless in the 200 year time skip basically nobody has died, the Primaris Marines are going to be the same biological age as their peers, or even older. Plus the Primaris Marines were occasionally unfrozen by Cawl for some Deathwatch-esque missions.

 

There are no flaws with Primaris Marines that wasn't already present with Space Marines in the first place. They're Marine-ier Marines. People raging about how corny and stupid it is for the Codices to constantly mention "Chapter X was on the brink, but then PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES ARRIVED AND SAVED THE DAY" are merely getting to experience the branding that Guard players have been putting up with for decades. 

 

[the jeske]

There are no flaws with Primaris Marines that wasn't already present with Space Marines in the first place. They're Marine-ier Marines. People raging about how corny and stupid it is for the Codices to constantly mention "Chapter X was on the brink, but then PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES™ ARRIVED AND SAVED THE DAY" are merely getting to experience the branding that Guard players have been putting up with for decades.

 

 

that is a weak argument. Just because something bad was done in the past, it should not be done over and over again. I don't play loyalists, so I don't really have a bone to fight over here, but the fluff is realy bad. Plus it richote hits other factions. We had around 20+years of leviathan hype up as tyranids. Strongest tyranid fleet, Kryptman said to stop it every living human would have to be armed just to stall them. And it gets killed off screen by a team up of G-man and Single Bloodthirster.

[Volt]

 

There are no flaws with Primaris Marines that wasn't already present with Space Marines in the first place. They're Marine-ier Marines. People raging about how corny and stupid it is for the Codices to constantly mention "Chapter X was on the brink, but then PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES™ ARRIVED AND SAVED THE DAY" are merely getting to experience the branding that Guard players have been putting up with for decades.

 

 

that is a weak argument. Just because something bad was done in the past, it should not be done over and over again. I don't play loyalists, so I don't really have a bone to fight over here, but the fluff is realy bad. Plus it richote hits other factions. We had around 20+years of leviathan hype up as tyranids. Strongest tyranid fleet, Kryptman said to stop it every living human would have to be armed just to stall them. And it gets killed off screen by a team up of G-man and Single Bloodthirster.

 

The fluff's always been bad in this regard. This isn't some great new problem, but the same old problem, 50% larger with a sloppier trademark applied.