Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[Wargamer]

Actually Baneblades are expendable. They are certainly rarer than Leman Russes, but they are not commodities the Imperium is pressed for.

 

Sorry to go on a tangent, but the whole reason for vehicles like the Macharius or other "counterfeit" Baneblades is because demand cannot match supply! The Imperium IS hard pressed to produce enough Baneblades, just like it's hard pressed to produce enough Land Raiders, Terminators or any number of awesome toys. This is precisely why Guard have such awful equipment as standard!

[slitth]

 

The average Astartes is under a century old. He does not have, if any, combat experience advantage over the Typical Primaris. Unless in the 200 year time skip basically nobody has died, the Primaris Marines are going to be the same biological age as their peers, or even older. Plus the Primaris Marines were occasionally unfrozen by Cawl for some Deathwatch-esque missions.

 

There are no flaws with Primaris Marines that wasn't already present with Space Marines in the first place. They're Marine-ier Marines. People raging about how corny and stupid it is for the Codices to constantly mention "Chapter X was on the brink, but then PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES ARRIVED AND SAVED THE DAY" are merely getting to experience the branding that Guard players have been putting up with for decades. 

 

When the primaris came out of the freezer, I would bet that they had less than a century combat experience combined.

Sure they would learn with time and would most likely become the standard.

 

But in the beginning they would vulnerable to veteran killers. I would therefore expect the casualty to be higher in the beginning.

Despite they added toughness.

[Volt]

 

Actually Baneblades are expendable. They are certainly rarer than Leman Russes, but they are not commodities the Imperium is pressed for.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but the whole reason for vehicles like the Macharius or other "counterfeit" Baneblades is because demand cannot match supply! The Imperium IS hard pressed to produce enough Baneblades, just like it's hard pressed to produce enough Land Raiders, Terminators or any number of awesome toys. This is precisely why Guard have such awful equipment as standard!

 

Of course demand can't match supply, the Imperial Guard is trillions-quadrillions strong and many Regiments aren't going to get it because either they didn't need it or they don't warrant it because they're not important enough. What matters is if the armor can be deployed where it actually matters, the key centerpiece which are sometimes literal linchpins of the galaxy. The average Guard regiment isn't even going to need Baneblades because they'll be busy putting down a petty Ork invasion or a rebellion. 

 

 

 

When the primaris came out of the freezer, I would bet that they had less than a century combat experience combined.

 

Sure they would learn with time and would most likely become the standard.

 

But in the beginning they would vulnerable to veteran killers. I would therefore expect the casualty to be higher in the beginning.

Despite they added toughness.

 

Cawl constantly unfroze them and sent them out on missions, and again the average Marine isn't a veteran. He's a couple decades old, perhaps 60 years old or so outside of the Reserve Companies. A Primaris marine isn't going to be at any disadvantage compared to his brothers. Only the officers would.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Volt

[slitth]

 

Cawl constantly unfroze them and sent them out on missions, and again the average Marine isn't a veteran. He's a couple decades old, perhaps 60 years old or so outside of the Reserve Companies. A Primaris marine isn't going to be at any disadvantage compared to his brothers. Only the officers would.

 

 

So besides being perfect +1 Astartes, they have also be doing missions on the fly in total secret?!?

That fact does not endear them to me.

 

The next big reveal will be that Nathaniel Garro was in fact a Primaris marine.

 

Sigh. Dear and beloved Tzeentch, I have something that would benefit massely by the blessing of spawndoom. With extra tentacles please.

[Cryptix]

 

 

 

Actually Baneblades are expendable. They are certainly rarer than Leman Russes, but they are not commodities the Imperium is pressed for.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but the whole reason for vehicles like the Macharius or other "counterfeit" Baneblades is because demand cannot match supply! The Imperium IS hard pressed to produce enough Baneblades, just like it's hard pressed to produce enough Land Raiders, Terminators or any number of awesome toys. This is precisely why Guard have such awful equipment as standard!

Of course demand can't match supply, the Imperial Guard is trillions-quadrillions strong and many Regiments aren't going to get it because either they didn't need it or they don't warrant it because they're not important enough. What matters is if the armor can be deployed where it actually matters, the key centerpiece which are sometimes literal linchpins of the galaxy. The average Guard regiment isn't even going to need Baneblades because they'll be busy putting down a petty Ork invasion or a rebellion.

 

 

When the primaris came out of the freezer, I would bet that they had less than a century combat experience combined.

 

Sure they would learn with time and would most likely become the standard.

 

But in the beginning they would vulnerable to veteran killers. I would therefore expect the casualty to be higher in the beginning.

Despite they added toughness.

 

Cawl constantly unfroze them and sent them out on missions, and again the average Marine isn't a veteran. He's a couple decades old, perhaps 60 years old or so outside of the Reserve Companies. A Primaris marine isn't going to be at any disadvantage compared to his brothers. Only the officers would.

Where'd you get that, I've never heard of this.

[Plaguecaster]

Suprisingly enough this painful discussion actually persuaded me to pick up the Datk Imperium novel and I was actually impressed with it especially for how it covered the Primaris marines

 

Too perfect, well yes we all know players hate when they believe their supposedly super soildiers are somewhat invalidated but I actually like the premise. The Imperium in all its glory died long ago during the Heresy, all that's left is a dying empire clawing at its last breaths. Chaos won and still is winning whilst the Imperium has been forced on the defensive ever since, humanities greatest soildiers the Astartes and their mighty genesires failed with the majority being the architects of their own empire's slow demise. Something was needed to break that deadlock and at least try giving the Imperium hope, the Primaris marines

 

then there is Cawl their creator, an eccentric tech priest who is a pariah of the Mechanicus using forbidden tech with ambitions that could cause another civil war on Mars, not even Guilliman fully trusts him even.

Even Guilliman doesn't fully trust the Primaris wanting to observe them a lot "the Primaris had been created at Guillimans behest but they were creatures made by Cawl. For all their feared perfection they are still viewed as abominations by the Imperium wielding weapons forged with forbidden tech and fighting excatly like the legions of old in which was forbidden by Guilliman himself who had to go against his own edicts (which is quite amazing considering how much of a stickler for rules he is) for the Imperiums salvation as the Primaris are a necessary evil

 

There is also this bit of fluff extract

"After a century of war, the Primaris space marines still seemed new. The Imperium was used to technological stagnancy. The Primaris warriors were shocking a blasphemy against the holy works of the Emperor- Omnissiah to some, a sure sign of the diety's work in the world to others. It was probable, Felix thought, that only the Primarch's presence had prevented the advent of the Primaris Space marines sparking yet another war between the Imperium"

Dark Imperium pg193 all through the perspective of a Primaris marine who realised that even they are arnt so perfect openly views with distrist and open suspicion

 

 

 

Primaris marines seem to fight as soon as they become Primaris marines which is a weakness since they have basic trading so are thrown directly into the line of fire which was acknowledged by a Primaris marine in the dark Imperium they took horrendous casualties at first because of that. It is also a strength as well though as unlike normal marines who go through a much longer recruitment process so it's much harder to replace losses to Primaris marines who can replenish their losses a lot quicker (probably may be why that apothecary is so disrespectful to the corpse he is standing in since they are so easily replaced)

 

 

Another small one is culture shock the Primaris originally fought as a full legion at first then over time as the crusade ended they were slowly siphoned off to various chapters as such, as a legion they developed their own fraternity fighting together with various Primaris of different geneseed with most squads being a mixture, they then wee split up with some becoming whole chapters to safeguard distant regions far from their home worlds or others replenishing chapters thrown into chapters containing the previous generation of marines with their very existence a complete disregard to the codex and viewed with open suspicion, distrust and probably hostility as they haven't proved themselves to their lesser brothers

For all their suppose perfection they still seem to feel the same human weaknesss pride, doubt, etc and we all know what marines are capable of with their feelings since they can be the biggest drama queens out there

 

I reckon all it will take is a couple novels that fully focus on the Primaris marines to better flesh them out, after all the Primaris were brought out at the start of the new time setting at least give them time even the super marines Corax created were basically the same premise as Primaris marines which were perfectly superior to normal marines until they experienced their downfall at the hands of the alpha legions shenanigans which made them into deeds fed and unstable abominations it doesn't make sense to reveal all the cards right at the start hell Cawl is able to create Primaris marines from the traitor legions but is forbidden to do so by Guilliman now that could turn out very interesting especially since Guilliman doesn't trust Cawl, Cawl wants to be declared high lord of mars and literally every thing he does is deemed Heresy by his colleagues of Mars

Edited July 29, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[the jeske]

Primaris marines seem to fight as soon as they become Primaris marines which is a weakness since they have basic trading so are thrown directly into the line of fire which was acknowledged by a Primaris marine in the dark Imperium they took horrendous casualties at first because of that.

 

 

SW and GK do the same.

 

In general as view this like this. Same orgin as space marines only better. Same support cast as the original and same job, which he/she does better then the original from day one. Same set of "powers", but stronger/faster/smarter/without any flaws the original character had. All we lack now is every one loves them and being magical. And of the two they kind of a are magical[not influenced by chaos, their whole orgin] and there is no love in w40k. So they are Mary Sues in comic terms, as soon as we get fluff blurb about the "common man" loving them primaris marines.

[Huggtand]

In general as view this like this. Same orgin as space marines only better. Same support cast as the original and same job, which he/she does better then the original from day one. Same set of "powers", but stronger/faster/smarter/without any flaws the original character had. All we lack now is every one loves them and being magical. And of the two they kind of a are magical[not influenced by chaos, their whole orgin] and there is no love in w40k. So they are Mary Sues in comic terms, as soon as we get fluff blurb about the "common man" loving them primaris marines.

 

 

They have the same flaws as the rest of the "normal" marines since nothing of the flaws are gone. Hell, GK are more marine+ then primaris. Only thing primaris has going for them is that they are better physicaly. If we compare the fluff GK are ubermarines besides the primaris and everybody seems ok with them  They are have the Emperors own geneseed, they are never corupted and in the storys almost always succed against impossible odds.

 

Primaris took heavy losses since they lacked battle experience in the beginning, they have doubts and angst of their future in their parent chapters. The future primaris who are made in the chapters are going to be the same marines as always but with three extra organs. No more no less.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Huggtand

[Adeptus]

 

In general as view this like this. Same orgin as space marines only better. Same support cast as the original and same job, which he/she does better then the original from day one. Same set of "powers", but stronger/faster/smarter/without any flaws the original character had. All we lack now is every one loves them and being magical. And of the two they kind of a are magical[not influenced by chaos, their whole orgin] and there is no love in w40k. So they are Mary Sues in comic terms, as soon as we get fluff blurb about the "common man" loving them primaris marines.

 

They have the same flaws as the rest of the "normal" marines

 

Well, there's the problem really. They're the same as normal marines just... better.

 

Snooze.

 

Yeah, Grey Knights are 'better' marines (although they're not all stronger, faster and 2' taller) but they're also highly specialised, numerically inferior, and much harder to recruit. They have drawbacks and limited scope, unlike the Primaris.

[Huggtand]

I feel we have to agree to disagree 

[Adeptus]

I don't see why though? I mean, GKs are much harder to recruit than normal marines, are especially equipped the fight Daemons, and are only 1,000 in number. Primaris marines are effectively unlimited, and suffer only the drawbacks that normal marines have, while being better than normal marines. There's not really much in there to 'agree to disagree' about, lol!

[slitth]

Suprisingly enough this painful discussion actually persuaded me to pick up the Datk Imperium novel and I was actually impressed with it especially for how it covered the Primaris marines

 

Too perfect, well yes we all know players hate when they believe their supposedly super soildiers are somewhat invalidated but I actually like the premise. The Imperium in all its glory died long ago during the Heresy, all that's left is a dying empire clawing at its last breaths. Chaos won and still is winning whilst the Imperium has been forced on the defensive ever since, humanities greatest soildiers the Astartes and their mighty genesires failed with the majority being the architects of their own empire's slow demise. Something was needed to break that deadlock and at least try giving the Imperium hope, the Primaris marines

 

then there is Cawl their creator, an eccentric tech priest who is a pariah of the Mechanicus using forbidden tech with ambitions that could cause another civil war on Mars, not even Guilliman fully trusts him even.

Even Guilliman doesn't fully trust the Primaris wanting to observe them a lot "the Primaris had been created at Guillimans behest but they were creatures made by Cawl. For all their feared perfection they are still viewed as abominations by the Imperium wielding weapons forged with forbidden tech and fighting excatly like the legions of old in which was forbidden by Guilliman himself who had to go against his own edicts (which is quite amazing considering how much of a stickler for rules he is) for the Imperiums salvation as the Primaris are a necessary evil

 

There is also this bit of fluff extract

"After a century of war, the Primaris space marines still seemed new. The Imperium was used to technological stagnancy. The Primaris warriors were shocking a blasphemy against the holy works of the Emperor- Omnissiah to some, a sure sign of the diety's work in the world to others. It was probable, Felix thought, that only the Primarch's presence had prevented the advent of the Primaris Space marines sparking yet another war between the Imperium"

Dark Imperium pg193 all through the perspective of a Primaris marine who realised that even they are arnt so perfect openly views with distrist and open suspicion

 

 

 

Primaris marines seem to fight as soon as they become Primaris marines which is a weakness since they have basic trading so are thrown directly into the line of fire which was acknowledged by a Primaris marine in the dark Imperium they took horrendous casualties at first because of that. It is also a strength as well though as unlike normal marines who go through a much longer recruitment process so it's much harder to replace losses to Primaris marines who can replenish their losses a lot quicker (probably may be why that apothecary is so disrespectful to the corpse he is standing in since they are so easily replaced)

 

 

Another small one is culture shock the Primaris originally fought as a full legion at first then over time as the crusade ended they were slowly siphoned off to various chapters as such, as a legion they developed their own fraternity fighting together with various Primaris of different geneseed with most squads being a mixture, they then wee split up with some becoming whole chapters to safeguard distant regions far from their home worlds or others replenishing chapters thrown into chapters containing the previous generation of marines with their very existence a complete disregard to the codex and viewed with open suspicion, distrust and probably hostility as they haven't proved themselves to their lesser brothers

For all their suppose perfection they still seem to feel the same human weaknesss pride, doubt, etc and we all know what marines are capable of with their feelings since they can be the biggest drama queens out there

 

I reckon all it will take is a couple novels that fully focus on the Primaris marines to better flesh them out, after all the Primaris were brought out at the start of the new time setting at least give them time even the super marines Corax created were basically the same premise as Primaris marines which were perfectly superior to normal marines until they experienced their downfall at the hands of the alpha legions shenanigans which made them into deeds fed and unstable abominations it doesn't make sense to reveal all the cards right at the start hell Cawl is able to create Primaris marines from the traitor legions but is forbidden to do so by Guilliman now that could turn out very interesting especially since Guilliman doesn't trust Cawl, Cawl wants to be declared high lord of mars and literally every thing he does is deemed Heresy by his colleagues of Mars

 

I really like reading this. It make me think of Belisarius Cawl as the Victor Frankenstein of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

And that make all his new and improved gadgets a lot more acceptable, even likeable.

 

I can accept +1 marines when the Imperium sees them as +1 "monsters"

Hell that how the first marines was perceived by some people doing the great crusade.

But the Imperium is not as supportive as back then.

I bet there are some inquisitors standing ready with heavy flamers, just waiting and hoping for them to perform some "heresy"

 

And seeing them being thrown into the front-line without any care. Well that also something I would expect the Imperium to do with something undesirable but useful.

A new and bright hope shoved in a rusty meat grinder, now that fits the theme 40K

[Schlitzaf]

Sil that is what I've been trying to say for these last two pages

[Skaorn]

I'm sorry, but if you want to paint them as monsters +1 you don't do what GW has done with them in fluff. The little exerp from the point of view of a Primaris reads as a Mary Sue who is uncertain about his self because his violet eyes didn't make someone love him. What I've been trying to get at for pages is that you need to consider your setting and be willing to put in some work. You have the inquisition grabbing heavy flamers, going golly gee!!!, and seeking to ask Cawl some very pointed questions. You have Bobby G talking to Calgar, telling him how he doesn't really trust them which is why they are so inflexible in case they need to be special order 66ed. You add a cost to their creation like having the process being far more likely to be lethal due to the far more drastic transformation. Rather than setting them up as saviors, you set them up as much needed reinforcements that you're giving a serious hairy eyeball to. You can still market them as super marines but have the common decency to make them fit in the setting.

[Demigod]

 

If thing are going badly for your faction, it might have the knowledge to make a better MBT, but it may lack means to make enough of the new MBT to make a difference.

WWII is a nice example of this.

WWII is only an example of making a new MBT when you need Pilots.

 

 

And yes there is a crippling weakness with Baneblades and Warlords Titans. You can afford to lose them.

Actually Baneblades are expendable. They are certainly rarer than Leman Russes, but they are not commodities the Imperium is pressed for. But even Titans are still made, the only issue is the time involved in their production and the Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworlds being a bunch of whiny gits who don't want to share.

 

 

Same goes for space marines, they are powerful and strong. But lost a company of them and the chapter in on the back foot working hard to regain their losses.

Just look at the Crimson Fists. Each casualty they suffer is a step backwards.

Which is more thanks to doctrine than any lacking in science. Even then there's so many Chapters that one sustaining heavy losses or being completely wiped out never seems to have much impact on the Imperium's logistics in the first place.

 

 

Now if Belisarius Cawl hade taken a some Primaris with him to Cadia, they might have show to be better and tougher than the old space marines.

But without the battle experience of the old marine, they are not an acceptable replacement.

So the Primaris would have to be integrated with old chapters to be an improvement.

The average Astartes is under a century old. He does not have, if any, combat experience advantage over the Typical Primaris. Unless in the 200 year time skip basically nobody has died, the Primaris Marines are going to be the same biological age as their peers, or even older. Plus the Primaris Marines were occasionally unfrozen by Cawl for some Deathwatch-esque missions.

 

There are no flaws with Primaris Marines that wasn't already present with Space Marines in the first place. They're Marine-ier Marines. People raging about how corny and stupid it is for the Codices to constantly mention "Chapter X was on the brink, but then PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES ARRIVED AND SAVED THE DAY" are merely getting to experience the branding that Guard players have been putting up with for decades. 

 

 

 

In Dark Imperium one of the primaris states that their casualties at the beginning were quite severe because of their lack of experience in contrast with space marines. Experience if also accumulated trough continuity of an institution. A kid in Afghanistan/Africa may even have more combat experience  than a recruit in USA/Russia but the institutional experience the later have accumulated over the years is invaluable.

 

This is why the primaris are so heavily 30k influenced in their weapons and tactics.

[Robbienw]

In the new codex it's stated that Guilliman and the Primaris crusade showed up and saved the Crimson Fists from a daemon invasion of rynns world just when it looked like they were going to be destroyed, just like they saved the BA from destruction :rolleyes: :lol:

[Demigod]

I'm sorry, but if you want to paint them as monsters +1 you don't do what GW has done with them in fluff. The little exerp from the point of view of a Primaris reads as a Mary Sue who is uncertain about his self because his violet eyes didn't make someone love him. What I've been trying to get at for pages is that you need to consider your setting and be willing to put in some work. You have the inquisition grabbing heavy flamers, going !!!, and seeking to ask Cawl some very pointed questions. You have Bobby G talking to Calgar, telling him how he doesn't really trust them which is why they are so inflexible in case they need to be special order 66ed. You add a cost to their creation like having the process being far more likely to be lethal due to the far more drastic transformation. Rather than setting them up as saviors, you set them up as much needed reinforcements that you're giving a serious hairy eyeball to. You can still market them as super marines but have the common decency to make them fit in the setting.

 

It has been like two months.There are 9 more codexes coming out until the end of the year, many other books and maybe even a second loyalist primarch, how about you give them a little bit of time before judging.The situation is comparable if for a decade the setting was stuck in the age of strife ,then the setting moves forward with the great crusade and some people start to complain how the entire setting has gone "noblebright" and how the space marines are mary sues in comparison with the thunder warriors. 

[Wargamer]

Speaking of Thunder Warriors, there's a bit of evidence to support my  comparison earlier in the Redemptor Dreadnought's lore: these things burn through their pilots at a disturbing rate! it seems we won't have any Primaris Old Ones, seeing as being put in a Redemptor is a death sentence.

[slitth]

Speaking of Thunder Warriors, there's a bit of evidence to support my  comparison earlier in the Redemptor Dreadnought's lore: these things burn through their pilots at a disturbing rate! it seems we won't have any Primaris Old Ones, seeing as being put in a Redemptor is a death sentence.

 

By the looks of it any standard sarcophagus can be installed in a Redemptor.

It's just not something you do unless the need is great

 

On another note.

I got the new codex and was a bit surprised about the "Makings of a Space Marine" part of it.

The only thing that was mentioned about Primaris was the 3 new implants and what they do.

 

But no added info about the makings of a Primaris.

Is vastly different from the old marines?

Will chapter made Primaris start out as scouts?

or do you just put a boy in a test tube, give it a Shake'N Bake, and get a full grown Primaris?

 

I feel like I'm missing a page or something

Edited July 29, 2017 by slitth

[Wargamer]

I had those same thoughts. It seems like all Chapters still use Scouts, but then there's the option of making regular or Primaris Marines.

[Robbienw]

I'm pretty certain from reading the codex that chapters still make normal Marines as well as Primaris. By the look of things Primaris and Originals get on famously, and the two forces complement each well.

[Volt]

 

 

If thing are going badly for your faction, it might have the knowledge to make a better MBT, but it may lack means to make enough of the new MBT to make a difference.

WWII is a nice example of this.

WWII is only an example of making a new MBT when you need Pilots.

 

 

And yes there is a crippling weakness with Baneblades and Warlords Titans. You can afford to lose them.

Actually Baneblades are expendable. They are certainly rarer than Leman Russes, but they are not commodities the Imperium is pressed for. But even Titans are still made, the only issue is the time involved in their production and the Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworlds being a bunch of whiny gits who don't want to share.

 

 

Same goes for space marines, they are powerful and strong. But lost a company of them and the chapter in on the back foot working hard to regain their losses.

Just look at the Crimson Fists. Each casualty they suffer is a step backwards.

Which is more thanks to doctrine than any lacking in science. Even then there's so many Chapters that one sustaining heavy losses or being completely wiped out never seems to have much impact on the Imperium's logistics in the first place.

 

 

Now if Belisarius Cawl hade taken a some Primaris with him to Cadia, they might have show to be better and tougher than the old space marines.

But without the battle experience of the old marine, they are not an acceptable replacement.

So the Primaris would have to be integrated with old chapters to be an improvement.

The average Astartes is under a century old. He does not have, if any, combat experience advantage over the Typical Primaris. Unless in the 200 year time skip basically nobody has died, the Primaris Marines are going to be the same biological age as their peers, or even older. Plus the Primaris Marines were occasionally unfrozen by Cawl for some Deathwatch-esque missions.

 

There are no flaws with Primaris Marines that wasn't already present with Space Marines in the first place. They're Marine-ier Marines. People raging about how corny and stupid it is for the Codices to constantly mention "Chapter X was on the brink, but then PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES ARRIVED AND SAVED THE DAY" are merely getting to experience the branding that Guard players have been putting up with for decades. 

 

 

 

In Dark Imperium one of the primaris states that their casualties at the beginning were quite severe because of their lack of experience in contrast with space marines. Experience if also accumulated trough continuity of an institution. A kid in Afghanistan/Africa may even have more combat experience  than a recruit in USA/Russia but the institutional experience the later have accumulated over the years is invaluable.

 

This is why the primaris are so heavily 30k influenced in their weapons and tactics.

 

Yeah but they're also led by Guilliman. Who should be intelligent enough to realize why special weapon squads are a terrible idea, because just throwing riflemen at something with no means to support themselves is a bad idea. That's not on the Priamris Marines themselves, as I think Guilliman was the one who organized their current structure. Either Guill or Cawl.

 

Regardless it's pretty damn silly because the various Primaris Squads are pretty screwed unless they are fighting exactly as they are meant to.

[slitth]

 

Yeah but they're also led by Guilliman. Who should be intelligent enough to realize why special weapon squads are a terrible idea, because just throwing riflemen at something with no means to support themselves is a bad idea. That's not on the Priamris Marines themselves, as I think Guilliman was the one who organized their current structure. Either Guill or Cawl.

 

Regardless it's pretty damn silly because the various Primaris Squads are pretty screwed unless they are fighting exactly as they are meant to.

 

 

So you are saying that Guilliman is either bad at tactics or trying to get them killed?

[Wargamer]

Guilliman is objectively bad at tactics, as shown by his love of bad tactics.

 

No plan survives contact with the enemy. Any good commander should know that things can and will go wrong, and so the more capable your force is to react to the unexpected, the less likely you are to be utterly screwed over.

 

Guilliman, however, has decided that the old style massed formations of the Legion are a much better idea, and so has made his new pet project a collection of units that are only worth using in one specific role.

 

Worse still, he's adopted a terrible formation in the worst possible way imaginable!

 

Ye Olden Line Infantry consisted of 20 Bolter Marines, who were part of a force that deployed on a huge scale; masses of troops and tanks and Titans. Because you were sending your Marines into battle a thousand at a time, the odds were much better someone was there to fill their blind spots.

 

Now, Girlyman has apparently not noticed that Chapters are spread much more thinly and typically now deploy in formations of 1-2 Companies at a time. Or, if he did, he decided that if he scaled down his musket formations accordingly it'd all work out the same. So now, instead of 20 Bolters, you get 5 slightly better Bolters.

 

Rowboat is mind-numbingly stupid.

[Volt]

 

 

Yeah but they're also led by Guilliman. Who should be intelligent enough to realize why special weapon squads are a terrible idea, because just throwing riflemen at something with no means to support themselves is a bad idea. That's not on the Priamris Marines themselves, as I think Guilliman was the one who organized their current structure. Either Guill or Cawl.

 

Regardless it's pretty damn silly because the various Primaris Squads are pretty screwed unless they are fighting exactly as they are meant to.

 

 

So you are saying that Guilliman is either bad at tactics or trying to get them killed?

 

Very bad. A boltgun is a formidable weapon but it is not a dedicated anti-vehicle weapon. The bolt rifles are 25mm ramjet HEAT rounds that will screw over light vehicles but are going to have trouble against enemy heavy armor, aircraft, and suppressing hordes of enemies. Now they can take stalker bolters, so they at least have designated marksmen. But they're just screwed if they need to actually suppress a target/mow down a large group of enemies or deal with targets their bolters are incapable of defeating. They don't have the equipment for it and they need to depend on another unit under another commander who they may or may not even be in contact with. 

 

The best way to use special weapons is to disperse them amongst squads to give your troops the best odds of being able to adapt to any threat and counter it. Not them into rigid cookie cutter chess pieces which all fold if one element is wiped out. IIRC in real life the only weapon the American army uses exclusive fireteams of is missile launchers like the Javelin. Otherwise weapons like mortars, LMG's, DMR's, etc are dispersed amongst squads/platoons.