Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[Wulf Vengis]

The whole point of the primaris marines is to divide the player base ad much as it is to divide imperial war factions.

 

We the players are breaking up into groups who accept and like these new +1 marines just as the space Marine chapters are doing.

 

Yes every chapter is welcoming them into their ranks but there will be captains, sergeants and other marines not wanting to be pushed aside or outdone by these new bigger, stronger, faster types.

 

We're likely going to see some units breaking away from parent chapters and going rogue simply because of these new primaris marines. At least in the fluff i would wager.

 

Were going to see players who refuse to field them and players who field them alongside their normal marines as well as players fielding nothing but primaris marines.

 

These primaris marines are not the savior Cawl wants them to be, but instead will divide the imperium even further. This division may not weak true havoc per se but it will happen. Not every current space Marine will be so welcoming.

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah but they're also led by Guilliman. Who should be intelligent enough to realize why special weapon squads are a terrible idea, because just throwing riflemen at something with no means to support themselves is a bad idea. That's not on the Priamris Marines themselves, as I think Guilliman was the one who organized their current structure. Either Guill or Cawl.

 

Regardless it's pretty damn silly because the various Primaris Squads are pretty screwed unless they are fighting exactly as they are meant to.

 

So you are saying that Guilliman is either bad at tactics or trying to get them killed?

Very bad. A boltgun is a formidable weapon but it is not a dedicated anti-vehicle weapon. The bolt rifles are 25mm ramjet HEAT rounds that will screw over light vehicles but are going to have trouble against enemy heavy armor, aircraft, and suppressing hordes of enemies. Now they can take stalker bolters, so they at least have designated marksmen. But they're just screwed if they need to actually suppress a target/mow down a large group of enemies or deal with targets their bolters are incapable of defeating. They don't have the equipment for it and they need to depend on another unit under another commander who they may or may not even be in contact with.

 

The best way to use special weapons is to disperse them amongst squads to give your troops the best odds of being able to adapt to any threat and counter it. Not them into rigid cookie cutter chess pieces which all fold if one element is wiped out. IIRC in real life the only weapon the American army uses exclusive fireteams of is missile launchers like the Javelin. Otherwise weapons like mortars, LMG's, DMR's, etc are dispersed amongst squads/platoons.

Well the legions managed to conquer most of the galaxy during the great crusade using those tactics so obviously it does work. Seriously people over react a lot concerning Primaris marines , for all people's fears normal marines are not going anywhere soon so it makes no sense for GW to make Primaris completely take over the role of normal marines. Tactical marines are designed to be generalist able to deal with most situations whilst Primaris marines excel at one particular role and do it pretty damn well since they have better equipment designed to to the combat role they employ. Guilliman knows the chapters already have tactical marines so why would he make them completely take over the role of something already in practice??? . Ok say the Primaris had a version of tactical marines capable of dealing with any situation with special or heavy weapons would people be happy??? No you would get the old marine fanboys crying out in anger "stop invalidating my marines" or other silliness overreacting over nothing, Primaris were made to be different and since most of the old marines had more flexible roles it makes sense the Primaris have more rigid combat role

 

Just remember personal opinion is all good and well on why you hate the Primaris but GW actually seem to be doing a good job of improving the fluff as dark Imperium shows they are trying, you can't cram 30 years worth of fluff in a couple of books and especially it to be fully detailed that's why we have novels etc. look at the Horus Heresy before we barely knew anything now with the amount of novels, Forgeworld books and other sources we have so much info we basically know just about everything like flaws, strengths and different viewpoints on why certain legions did what they did during the Heresy. Hell im a chaos player so I usually have the most biased opinion on loyalist stuff and I really didn't care at all about the new Primaris but actually reading a bit more about them actually makes them sound quite interesting and I'm very curious on how GW expand on the idea as I had the narrow minded opinion of hating the stormcast because they were new and somehow invalidated the old fluff but even they proved quite interesting

Edited July 29, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[jeffersonian000]

There is a lesser known weakness that all Primaris face in many battles, their tendency to spontaneously emit Salt.

 

Whenever Salt appears on the eve of battle, opponents refuse to fight, sometimes making impossible demands of the Primaris while claiming victory when the Primaris fail to meet those demands. It's a subtle weakness, one Primaris can never fully anticipate. Yet it can be even more crippling than their fear of confined spaces.

 

Cawl is diligently working on a cure for this plague of Salt, but alas he has yet to Refine it.

 

SJ

Edited July 31, 2017 by jeffersonian000

[Master Commander Ajax]

I don't think that Primaris Marines need a weakness per se, they just should have had a better introduction. They have plenty of unique selling points (their technology, their tactics, the method's used to create them) so was it necessary to push them as 'Bigger, stronger and faster' than the traditional Space Marines? I mean there already are over half a dozen Space Marine factions out there who at worst I am indifferent to.

[Frater Cornelius]

They don't fit through standard-issue Imperial doors.

[2gud2bbad]

Whilst I am still worried about GW discontinuing their normal Marines, the introduction of the physically superior Primaris actually move s the normal Marines in the section i've always wanted them to be: being well-equipped, well-trained, soldiers being capable of fighting everyone whilst not having to maintain their "Gods of the Galaxy"-Designation, which now moves on to the Primaris. Now we can think of the normal Marines more of a military force that has to rely on careful planning and military principles more than on raw power of their individual soldiers (->Primaris). 

 

I hope atleast someone got my point

[bluntblade]

I'm sure that in my time reading military history I've come across a few battles where a plan that "survived contact with the enemy". Yeah, EC-style choreography isn't going to happen, but if you look at a battle like Trafalgar, Nelson's plan went just fine, even with him fatally wounded.

[Wargamer]

 

Well the legions managed to conquer most of the galaxy during the great crusade using those tactics so obviously it does work.

Just because something works doesn't make it smart. Throwing soldiers at a machine gun nest until the gunners run out of bullets will eventually silence the gun, but a far better way would be to snipe or shell the gun without losing a single man.

 

This is the point we're making; the Chapter system is objectively better than the Legion model, but Guilliman wants to go back to the Legion model...

[the jeske]

 

Throwing soldiers at a machine gun nest until the gunners run out of bullets will eventually silence the gun, but a far better way would be to snipe or shell the gun without losing a single man.

why snipers and bulltes cost more then grunts. If something works it is smart. It stops being smart, if it stops working.

[Ishagu]

Everyone is missing something painfully obviously.

 

The Chapter flexibility is a necessity brought about by having a small force, with independent units engaging in various scenarios.

Guilliman's Primaris forces make up a huge, Crusade sized army that literally rolls over any opposition. He's running the Primaris at his back like a Legion... Because that's what they are.

[Robbienw]

Not since he parcelled them out to different chapters (or their own Chapter units) they aren't.

[deathspectersgt7]

I was going to say tell that to the Orks Ishagu .

[Ishagu]

Guilliman basically has the 500 (now 390ish) worlds of Ultramar at his direct command, as well as any other chapters and military forces across the Imperium.

 

Even after the Indomnitus Crusade was completed and the forces were distributed around, he used utterly overwhelming force to crush the Heretics in various Imperium systems.

 

Clearly he wants much bigger integration between Imperium forces and chapters.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Ishagu

[Volt]

 

 

Throwing soldiers at a machine gun nest until the gunners run out of bullets will eventually silence the gun, but a far better way would be to snipe or shell the gun without losing a single man.

why snipers and bulltes cost more then grunts. If something works it is smart. It stops being smart, if it stops working.

 

No. That's not how it works at all in real life. Stupid things can persist for very long times simply because there's idiots propping them up or there's money involved. Nevermind that even if bullets cost more, it's objectively better to use a sniper instead of human wave tactics for this little thing called "morale". Treating sapient soldiers able to rout or rebel like gak is poor practice. 

 

 

Guilliman basically has the 500 (now 390ish) worlds of Ultramar at his direct command, as well as any other chapters and military forces across the Imperium.

 

Even after the Indomnitus Crusade was completed and the forces were distributed around, he used utterly overwhelming force to crush the Heretics in various Imperium systems.

 

Clearly he wants much bigger integration between Imperium forces and chapters.

And yet this isn't how the forces are organized, and it doesn't change that Legions themselves suffered from the idiotic "throw riflemen at the enemy and hope nothing but infantry shows up"tactic as well. Tactical squads are structured far better, and can adapt to face virtually any threat with reasonable effectiveness. The only stupid thing about tacs is that they can't take two heavy weapons or two specials. 8 Bolters and 2 heavy bolters would be an ideal Marine loadout.

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

 

 

Throwing soldiers at a machine gun nest until the gunners run out of bullets will eventually silence the gun, but a far better way would be to snipe or shell the gun without losing a single man.

why snipers and bulltes cost more then grunts. If something works it is smart. It stops being smart, if it stops working.

No. That's not how it works at all in real life. Stupid things can persist for very long times simply because there's idiots propping them up or there's money involved. Nevermind that even if bullets cost more, it's objectively better to use a sniper instead of human wave tactics for this little thing called "morale". Treating sapient soldiers able to rout or rebel like gak is poor practice.

 

Guilliman basically has the 500 (now 390ish) worlds of Ultramar at his direct command, as well as any other chapters and military forces across the Imperium.

 

Even after the Indomnitus Crusade was completed and the forces were distributed around, he used utterly overwhelming force to crush the Heretics in various Imperium systems.

 

Clearly he wants much bigger integration between Imperium forces and chapters.

And yet this isn't how the forces are organized, and it doesn't change that Legions themselves suffered from the idiotic "throw riflemen at the enemy and hope nothing but infantry shows up"tactic as well. Tactical squads are structured far better, and can adapt to face virtually any threat with reasonable effectiveness. The only stupid thing about tacs is that they can't take two heavy weapons or two specials. 8 Bolters and 2 heavy bolters would be an ideal Marine loadout.

You obviously never heard how the Guard do things ;)

"Real world logic" is pretty pointless when it comes to 40k if you can't understand that you are playing the wrong hobby game which involves daemons , space wizards and giant super soildiers that can spit acid :D you ever think that maybe Guilliman used legion tactics for the Primaris simply because he viewed them as expendable since they were an unproven force which whilst to everyone sounded too perfect were also created using questionable methods by a millennia old Magos who was not only a pariah to his own colleagues but not fully trusted by Guilliman himself. There is also the reason I mentioned that GW probably made the Primaris fight like legions since they wanted them to be different than the normal marines who fought as tactical marines for their ability to adapt to certain battlefield situations so those who still like old marines didn't feel their marines were being invalidated by a new marine who did the same role but better

 

It really feels like people are moaning for petty reason just because they have a negative opinion on the Primaris first everyone was moaning how they had no flaws and were too perfect then when one of their actual weaknesses was mentioned seems like everyone is moaning that is a stupid tactic and only idiots would use it (not counting the fact the majority of the Imperium has and in some cases still uses the same tactics :D )

Edited July 31, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[the jeske]

No. That's not how it works at all in real life. Stupid things can persist for very long times simply because there's idiots propping them up or there's money involved. Nevermind that even if bullets cost more, it's objectively better to use a sniper instead of human wave tactics for this little thing called "morale". Treating sapient soldiers able to rout or rebel like gak is poor practice. 

 

 

 

Real life? we never fought a war in a different way, and we have yet to lose one

 

Nevermind that even if bullets cost more, it's objectively better to use a sniper instead of human wave tactics for this little thing called "morale"

 

Morale of what? Good units, unless they get shelled or have their transport poped, do not care about morale as they always attack in favorable situations. Clean up squads do not care, because civilians rarelly suffer casualities, and if they do, they "fix" the problem themself. And line troops have guard units behind them, and they know they can't turn back. It is fool proof. On the other hand if you try to use tech or snipers etc to deal with something you invest a lot of time in to training[which is also money, as money=time] and if the sniper/tech dude dies [what happens in wars from time to time], they you need another one quick in the same place AND you have to deal with actual moral problems. Because a group of snipers is going to be always smaller, then a rolling wave formation, so each death hurts the morale more. If you lose 1000 dudes from a 40000 man formation, they won't even notice it the first few days.

 

Treating sapient soldiers able to rout or rebel like gak is poor practice.

 

 

Well am not saying that this is the case for all armies around the world. But if your job is to die, then treating someone like a human, seems rather inefficient. Because then yes moral matters. If soldiers know that they are not humans the moment they enlist, problems of high/low morale don't really exist[well maybe up until food runs out, and if your runing out of food you lost anyway].

[Beta galactosidase]

Tactical squads are structured far better, and can adapt to face virtually any threat with reasonable effectiveness. The only stupid thing about tacs is that they can't take two heavy weapons or two specials. 8 Bolters and 2 heavy bolters would be an ideal Marine loadout.

 

 

If they were like modern tactics they'd have one special and one heavy in each combat squad.

 

I do see players who say that having mixed weapons means always wasting one of the weapons. In universe though, there aren't six turns in a battle.

 

The Heresy tac squads are branding. It's so that the legions seem both archaic and grandiose, which is what the brand is to people who played 40k and when HH armies used to be this super-hobbyist niche interest. But that obviously had no relation to good sense in-universe. The marines of the great crusade didn't think they were archaic they were the most advanced Terran humanity had been for thousands of years. It was the future back then.

 

The forge world HH models look nice and I like Horus Rising a lot but you can't really relate it to 40k. It's not relevant. HH is plenty likable by itself, but not as background for 40k. As soon as fw, sabretooth, and the GW studio have to make heresy squads 20 bolters so that people can't just use existing 40k armies as heresy era, it breaks the fourth wall and it becomes useless information.

 

It's the same for Primaris and Guilliman. It's obvious that they are made the way they are to make them a different product than other kits, so they aren't reliable sources of information.

[the jeske]

Plus most legions were used in a different way. A more tactical way of arming squads makes more sense when you have limited resourves and an odd 100 dudes in one place most of the time. when your operating at a multi chapter level like some old legions did redundancy is more important.

 

Primaris fight in a simiular way, they do not have to worry about stuff like dieing out [an actual problem for some chapters in post heresy world] or being brough under unservicable chapter size. They have no souls, so stuff like culture, post primarch ethos [an actual chapter X myth] does not matter to them. A fitting army to someone like G-man.

[Beta galactosidase]

Real life? we never fought a war in a different way, and we have yet to lose one

 

On the other hand if you try to use tech or snipers etc to deal with something you invest a lot of time in to training[which is also money, as money=time] and if the sniper/tech dude dies [what happens in wars from time to time], they you need another one quick in the same place AND you have to deal with actual moral problems. Because a group of snipers is going to be always smaller, then a rolling wave formation, so each death hurts the morale more. If you lose 1000 dudes from a 40000 man formation, they won't even notice it the first few days.

 

 

well maybe up until food runs out, and if your runing out of food you lost anyway].

 

 

Very true 10/10 would conscript again.

[Arkangilos]

@Jeske, dude you have no idea what you are even talking about and I could easily run circles around you if it weren't so off topic. But literally everything you just said was wrong.

[Frater Cornelius]

Easy now. No need to make this thread yet another battlefield. We already have enough of those in 40k ;)

[Lexington]

The weakness of the Primaris is that they're written in the context of the modern Studio and today's Games Workshop. They're a weak concept, fleshed out by weak writers in a company with a weak internal understanding of its own IP.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lexington

[Slave to Darkness]

The weakness of the Primaris is that they're written in the context of the modern Studio and today's Games Workshop. They're a weak concept, fleshed out by weak writers in a company with a weak internal understanding of its own IP.

They should get Chambers, Priestly and Stillman back, then they will be knocking out decent stuff again and not this 8th ed pisswater.

[Master Commander Ajax]

Essentially Primaris Marines have three new organs that traditional Space Marines don't have which is what gives them their improved attributes. There is nothing that a baseline Space Marine can do that a Primaris Marine couldn't do better. That's fine if you like the new Primaris Marines but not so great if you're passionate about the traditional Marines whose place in the lore is effectively being usurped. This is as I understand it why there are calls for Primaris Marines to have some sort of weakness.

 

Now I really wish that GW had never gone down the route of meddling with Space Marine Gene-seed but seeing as that ship has sailed my solution would not be to 'fix' the Primaris Marines by giving them a weakness but by giving traditional Marines the same improved abilities as the Primaris Marines. A bit of fluff which looked something like this:

 

"The revolutionary new procedures in Astartes creation pioneered by Belisarius Cawl were quickly divulged by Guilliman to all of the Space Marine Chapters still in existence. Better yet it was soon found that existing battle Brothers could also benefit from the implementation of the new organs, giving the forces of mankind a much-needed boost during humanities darkest hour. However, the new military hardware also introduced at this time was nowhere near as universally accepted. Ten thousand years of ingrained battlefield dogma combined with the reluctance of many Forge Worlds to sanction Cawls 'heretical' designs meant that some Chapters never adopted the newer marks of armour, preferring instead to rely on tried and tested war-gear."

 

I know it isn't perfect but I think it would go some way to placating peoples grievances without dampening the enthusiasm other people have for the new Primaris range? I personally could ignore the scale issue (as I ignore an infinite number of other scale discrepancies in 40k) and it might even be the excuse I need to buy some of the new kits.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Master Commander Ajax

[Wargamer]

Frankly, just having the Terminator weakness would have been enough. After all, Terminators are in the same boat; objectively superior in every way to ordinary Marines.

 

So why aren't Terminators loathed like Primaris? Because most Chapters have so few suits they can't even field an entire Company of them. Newer Chapters especially struggle to get any suits at all. Once again, it's the rarity balance.

 

If the Primaris were harder to make, with greater odds of losing the applicant, then we'd have some justification for their greater abilities.