Weakness in primaris marines - Lore discussion

[Robbienw]

The Primaris must take at least a small percentage of time longer to make than an original marine, as they have all the original marine organs +3 extra.

 

Also I think it stands to reason that chapters will still continue to make original Marines, for a time at least, as they still currently need them to use large amounts of highly effective and revered wargear and machines which they aren't going to throw away.

[Prot]

Please try to respectful. Even if someone appears out to lunch on something, these topics tend to bring the best and worst out of people. Remember it's a debate about plastic dudes in a plastic war where the only true winner is GW. ;)

 

I will say one thing worth noting is if you haven't checked it out Dark Imperium is a good read. It's good to see the Imperium on its backfoot, and the background given in the book does answer some questions some people may have.

 

The interesting thing about the Primaris that I don't think everyone seems aware of is they are a VERY old, long time experiment. It's in the book, it was also mentioned by Phil Kelly on warhammer TV. Some of these Primaris are thousands of years old. Some in 'hibernation', some needed experience, and did 'black ops' to gain experience. Some were last awake when all marines were loyal... and they awoke in a time that they did not recognize, but they bring with them a history, and a strong memory of the former glory of the Imperium.

 

This is not only mentioned by a few sources, but it does act as motivation for the younger generation. These Primaris marines can also relate to Guilliman, and he in turn feels a sense of nostalgia as a result (a weakness? Perhaps.)

 

If I were to guess at a true weakness here, it may not be the Primaris themselves but the dude who cooked them up... Cawl. The book brings some interesting power plays to the surface. Mars isn't happy and some of this is actually a 'prime' secret from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

In essence the action of creating the Primaris might prove to cause a lot of inner conflict on some levels of the Imperium. Just a guess though. :)

[jeffersonian000]

It does appear that Primaris are fully expressed Raptor Astartes, without the chaos corruption induced by the Alpha Legion. And if memory serves, Raptors grew from adolescent humans to supervisor Astartes in just over a day after implantation, which included hypno-indoctrination and an intravenous bio-mass supply. Kind of makes me want to model Raven Guard Primaris Ancients all hunched over with tails and tusks.

 

SJ

[Leif Bearclaw]

I will say one thing worth noting is if you haven't checked it out Dark Imperium is a good read. It's good to see the Imperium on its backfoot, and the background given in the book does answer some questions some people may have.

 

 

See, this is something I don't get. Why is it good/special to see the Imperium on the backfoot in Dark Imperium? The Imperium's always on the backfoot in recent 40k fluff, to the point where I'm heartily sick of it (Darkness Induced Audience Apathy and all). It's strange to see the same fluff derided by some as too hopeful and 'noblebright', other praise it as appropriately dark, while I'm just seeing the same old they've been shovelling for the last few years.

 

Unrelated thing. Was disappointed to read in the SM dex that Gullimans vaunted 'reforms of the Codex' seem to boil down to a big pile of zip, besides 'here's' some primaris'. He's not even 'bringing back the Legion model', because the arbitrary limits of 1000 Marines, 10 Companies is still in effect. Saying 'you can have 20 squads of 5 instead of 10 squads of 10' and 'you can attach squads from Reserve Companies to bulk up Battle Companies' isn't novel or revolutionary in any way, it's precisely how the Marine deployments have been presented in the fluff as long as I can remember. Was every Chapter breaking with the Codex on such a regular basis for 10,000 odd years?

[Volt]

 

Real life? we never fought a war in a different way, and we have yet to lose one

Eh, no? Our tactics change constantly with each new conflict and we have lost several wars since the outbreak of the Cold War. War always changes, its very nature is evolutionary for as a conflict it forces adaption or extinction of the factions involved. The best example of this was the Roman civilization which effectively restructured its military after every defeat to adapt.

Morale of what? Good units, unless they get shelled or have their transport poped, do not care about morale as they always attack in favorable situations. Clean up squads do not care, because civilians rarelly suffer casualities, and if they do, they "fix" the problem themself. And line troops have guard units behind them, and they know they can't turn back. It is fool proof. On the other hand if you try to use tech or snipers etc to deal with something you invest a lot of time in to training[which is also money, as money=time] and if the sniper/tech dude dies [what happens in wars from time to time], they you need another one quick in the same place AND you have to deal with actual moral problems. Because a group of snipers is going to be always smaller, then a rolling wave formation, so each death hurts the morale more. If you lose 1000 dudes from a 40000 man formation, they won't even notice it the first few days.

It doesn't matter if they know there's no alternative, they're still humans and are completely capable (indeed, likely) to psychologically break and run even though they know it will logically result in their death anyway. Because logic no longer matters, emotion drives them now and they simply drop everything and run. We know from history and the modern era that the best militaries are not those that treat their troops like crap, those have sometimes crippling issues with desertion, routing, and mutinies. I'm not talking about civilians, what matters is the soldiers themselves and their fighting spirit. You do not need to physically defeat the enemy to break them, you need only to shatter their morale and make them run so they can be picked off at your discretion. Human wave tactics are simply idiotic, which is part of the reason why a great deal of the Imperial Guard doesn't actually engage in human wave tactics, disregarding the Valhallans and Kriegers.

Well am not saying that this is the case for all armies around the world. But if your job is to die, then treating someone like a human, seems rather inefficient. Because then yes moral matters. If soldiers know that they are not humans the moment they enlist, problems of high/low morale don't really exist[well maybe up until food runs out, and if your runing out of food you lost anyway].

Wot. This simply is not how humans, or human armies work at all. That kind of idiotic treatment of your soldiers will earn you a full on rebellion in little to no time.

 

Please try to respectful. Even if someone appears out to lunch on something, these topics tend to bring the best and worst out of people. Remember it's a debate about plastic dudes in a plastic war where the only true winner is GW. 

 

I will say one thing worth noting is if you haven't checked it out Dark Imperium is a good read. It's good to see the Imperium on its backfoot, and the background given in the book does answer some questions some people may have.

 

The interesting thing about the Primaris that I don't think everyone seems aware of is they are a VERY old, long time experiment. It's in the book, it was also mentioned by Phil Kelly on warhammer TV. Some of these Primaris are thousands of years old. Some in 'hibernation', some needed experience, and did 'black ops' to gain experience. Some were last awake when all marines were loyal... and they awoke in a time that they did not recognize, but they bring with them a history, and a strong memory of the former glory of the Imperium.

 

This is not only mentioned by a few sources, but it does act as motivation for the younger generation. These Primaris marines can also relate to Guilliman, and he in turn feels a sense of nostalgia as a result (a weakness? Perhaps.)

 

If I were to guess at a true weakness here, it may not be the Primaris themselves but the dude who cooked them up... Cawl. The book brings some interesting power plays to the surface. Mars isn't happy and some of this is actually a 'prime' secret from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

In essence the action of creating the Primaris might prove to cause a lot of inner conflict on some levels of the Imperium. Just a guess though. 

I've heard it's been hinted in Dark Imperium that Cawl isn't necessarily a human as well?

 

Frankly, just having the Terminator weakness would have been enough. After all, Terminators are in the same boat; objectively superior in every way to ordinary Marines.

 

So why aren't Terminators loathed like Primaris? Because most Chapters have so few suits they can't even field an entire Company of them. Newer Chapters especially struggle to get any suits at all. Once again, it's the rarity balance.

 

If the Primaris were harder to make, with greater odds of losing the applicant, then we'd have some justification for their greater abilities.

Terminators aren't superior to marines, at least not the marks outside of Tartaros Armor. Terminators are superior in every way..... except speed and transport. They're heavy, slower units that can bring more firepower to bear but at the cost of the nimble and high speed nature of their power armored brethren. And with marines already weighing in at around 800-,1000 pounds, Terminators are so heavy they absolutely cannot enter certain bearings because the bloody floor can't bear their weight and they'll fall through it.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Volt

[Prot]

Warning: I've tried to not give anything away but there are potential Dark Imperium spoilers below!!

 

 

 

Honestly it appears he can't even remember as most of his offloaded and currently stored memory is loaded with schematics and other non-human related memories.

 

It's been suggested he may be Arkan Land. But that's pure conjecture. There is an interesting mechanism in the book called the Cawl Inferior device. It mimics his personality and contains a great deal of his intellect. Although it was created as a communication mechanism that gets around the Death Guard's ability to intercept Warp transmissions, there seems to be a lot more to it.

 

Guilliman questions the self awareness of the Cawl Inferior to which it denies being a sentient being ( this of course is strictly forbidden by Mars). However the Cawl Inferior shows desires of political motivations and a desire to avoid termination ( it claim ms these are actions set forth by Cawl but I'm not buying it)

 

What this shows me though is that Cawl is expendable to some degree and the Primaris technology would live on. However, tying this back to the subject, this also shows the traitor Legions could also access Primaris technology through the Inferior device.

 

There are many story strings left dangling in this book. And it's the 'people' (generally speaking) that I suspect may turn out to be the weakness in all of this. ;)

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prot

[Ebon Hand]

I thought being unable to spit acids was just a Templar thing or do all Dorn Scions have that issue? 

I'm not sure if this was answered yet, but all sons of Dorn are missing their Sus-An Membrane (Hibernator) and Betcher's Gland (Poison/Acid Spit).  The Excoriators even experience another flaw with a mental state called "Dorn's Darkness" where they fall into a trance like state like a waking nightmare where they relive Dorn's profound misery after finding the Emperor mortally wounded.

 

On the topic of Primaris, I don't see how anyone can say they are NOT flawed.  They are even fewer in number than Space Marines and viewed with mistrust by many. They would have all the same behavioral flaws Space Marines have, and to be honest, I currently find their plight of being the newbies waking up to a :cussstorm much more interesting than them simply having the same exact weaknesses as their Astartes brothers.  

 

Plus, there is the question of whether they will end up manifesting those weaknesses anyway after taking losses, or being spread to less scrupulous Chapter Masters.  So far the First Founding chapters have handled their geneseed with care, but do you think that can last forever in the 40K universe?  Don't you think that eventually some of them could end up as corrupted, if not more so, given the current state of the Imperium and Chaos everywhere?  If you want them to have a weakness, BE THE CHANGE.  Make up backstory where they do have a weakness.  It's your hobby, make of it what you will!

[totgeboren]

That they are viewed with mistrust really doesn't qualify as a flaw, since the flaw in that case is not with them, but with the standard marines. That's like saying at a job interview that your main weakness is that others tend to feel inadequate in your magnificent precense. You just can't say that and expect people to take you seriously. Same with the Primaris and trust. That standard marines feel inadequate isn't even a remotely interesting weakness.

 

The issue is that the work of the Emperor in creating marines really is supposed to be the pinnacle of what is achievable. He made primarchs, but they literally required deals with the devil to work, he made the custodies, but each require so much resources that they could never be fielded in large numbers. He made the thunderwarriors, who were marines +1, but suffered crippling defects.

 

For Primaris marines to fit the setting, they need to have some drawback that does not make them a no-brainer. For someone within the setting, if they have X resources, and could put them into creating marines or Primaris, the choice should be difficult.

Upgrading an existing marine to a Primaris should be something you are hesitant to do.

They should basically be thunder warriors, a candle that burns at both ends.

 

It's an integral part of 40k lore, and especially marine lore that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Robbienw]

I don't think they are viewed with mistrust by other space marines in general, at least not if the codex fluff is anything to go by.  I think it is more other parts of the imperium that view them with mistrust. 

[Arkangilos]

That they are viewed with mistrust really doesn't qualify as a flaw, since the flaw in that case is not with them, but with the standard marines. That's like saying at a job interview that your main weakness is that others tend to feel inadequate in your magnificent precense. You just can't say that and expect people to take you seriously. Same with the Primaris and trust. That standard marines feel inadequate isn't even a remotely interesting weakness.

 

The issue is that the work of the Emperor in creating marines really is supposed to be the pinnacle of what is achievable. He made primarchs, but they literally required deals with the devil to work, he made the custodies, but each require so much resources that they could never be fielded in large numbers. He made the thunderwarriors, who were marines +1, but suffered crippling defects.

 

For Primaris marines to fit the setting, they need to have some drawback that does not make them a no-brainer. For someone within the setting, if they have X resources, and could put them into creating marines or Primaris, the choice should be difficult.

Upgrading an existing marine to a Primaris should be something you are hesitant to do.

They should basically be thunder warriors, a candle that burns at both ends.

 

It's an integral part of 40k lore, and especially marine lore that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

The Emperor specifically built the thunder warriors with the crippling defects so that they would die off.

 

We also don't know if the space marines were the pinnacle of what he *could* create. In fact, we know they were not based on the the Raptor project with the Raven Guard where he gave the Raven Guard the means to mass produce even better space marines much quicker than anyone else, which would have worked if not for the Alpha Legion. So we know, just from that, that the Emperor could do better.

 

The question is why would he have done better? The Great Crusade was almost over. The Space Marines were about to no longer be needed. He built what he needed for the task at hand, nothing more.

 

The Emperor's "build what's needed for the task" is evident in everything, from the special purpose of the specific Primarchs, to the way the legions were organized (standard legion organization had dedicated units to specific tasks. Mass Bolter standard squads to fight the main enemy. When a tank rolled around, they brought out the squads armed entirely with anti-tank weapons, for example).

 

We also see that towards the end he put less resources into keeping the legions supplied with high tech gear. I'm willing to bet that had he ordered it, they could have kept all legions supplied with standard issue volkites. But he didn't need to. When the Crusade was clearly going to be successful, he could afford to drop to issuing bolters as standard.

 

Contemptors, other advanced dreadnaughts, etc. started getting phased out and replaced with the less advanced box dreads.

 

Then the Heresy happened and he gave the Raven Guard tech to mass produce even stronger space marines that were superior to regular ones.

 

 

So yeah, space marines mk 1 were never the pinacle. They were a tool made for a specific task. They were good at that task. Now the task is greater than what they can achieve, so Cawl pushed out marine mk 3 (mk 2 would be the raven guard upgrades before ruined by Alpha Legion)

Edited August 1, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Ebon Hand]

Being viewed with mistrust is a flaw though, even if it is not a flaw with them. The same as Psykers and anything Mechanicus, it affects who is willing to offer them trust. The Imperium is still a superstitious, 'cling-to-your-old-ways' type of place, and in a universe where you want as many allies as you can get, being something brand new is bound to be a detriment as much as it is a boon.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

That they are viewed with mistrust really doesn't qualify as a flaw, since the flaw in that case is not with them, but with the standard marines. That's like saying at a job interview that your main weakness is that others tend to feel inadequate in your magnificent precense. You just can't say that and expect people to take you seriously. Same with the Primaris and trust. That standard marines feel inadequate isn't even a remotely interesting weakness.

 

The issue is that the work of the Emperor in creating marines really is supposed to be the pinnacle of what is achievable. He made primarchs, but they literally required deals with the devil to work, he made the custodies, but each require so much resources that they could never be fielded in large numbers. He made the thunderwarriors, who were marines +1, but suffered crippling defects.

 

For Primaris marines to fit the setting, they need to have some drawback that does not make them a no-brainer. For someone within the setting, if they have X resources, and could put them into creating marines or Primaris, the choice should be difficult.

Upgrading an existing marine to a Primaris should be something you are hesitant to do.

They should basically be thunder warriors, a candle that burns at both ends.

 

It's an integral part of 40k lore, and especially marine lore that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

The Emperor specifically built the thunder warriors with the crippling defects so that they would die off.

 

We also don't know if the space marines were the pinnacle of what he *could* create. In fact, we know they were not based on the the Raptor project with the Raven Guard where he gave the Raven Guard the means to mass produce even better space marines much quicker than anyone else, which would have worked if not for the Alpha Legion. So we know, just from that, that the Emperor could do better.

 

The question is why would he have done better? The Great Crusade was almost over. The Space Marines were about to no longer be needed. He built what he needed for the task at hand, nothing more.

 

The Emperor's "build what's needed for the task" is evident in everything, from the special purpose of the specific Primarchs, to the way the legions were organized (standard legion organization had dedicated units to specific tasks. Mass Bolter standard squads to fight the main enemy. When a tank rolled around, they brought out the squads armed entirely with anti-tank weapons, for example).

 

We also see that towards the end he put less resources into keeping the legions supplied with high tech gear. I'm willing to bet that had he ordered it, they could have kept all legions supplied with standard issue volkites. But he didn't need to. When the Crusade was clearly going to be successful, he could afford to drop to issuing bolters as standard.

 

Contemptors, other advanced dreadnaughts, etc. started getting phased out and replaced with the less advanced box dreads.

 

Then the Heresy happened and he gave the Raven Guard tech to mass produce even stronger space marines that were superior to regular ones.

 

 

So yeah, space marines mk 1 were never the pinacle. They were a tool made for a specific task. They were good at that task. Now the task is greater than what they can achieve, so Cawl pushed out marine mk 3 (mk 2 would be the raven guard upgrades before ruined by Alpha Legion)

 

While I agree with the essence of your argument here, the examples are very much lacking. As far as I'm aware we don't know when the proportion of Volkite weaponry in the Legions began to drop off, only that demand 'swiftly' outpaced supply as the Crusade expanded, there's no indication that it was due to any kind of artificial scarcity once it was deemed the Crusade was 'successful'. Contemptor's weren't getting phased out (iirc the Lucifer was the Dreadnought of the early Crusade, and was indeed phased out), they were relatively recent developments and additions to the Legion's arsenals, again with demand higher than supply. Likewise, the introduction of new armour marks, Terminator suits and weapons (like the Sicaran tanks) even in the very twilight of the Crusade does not suggest that the Emperor/Imperial authorities were putting less effort into supplying the Legions.

 

Did they Emperor keep some toys from the Astartes? Yes, but stuff like the fancy toys the Custodes have are described as incredibly resource-intensive/rare as well as powerful, so keeping them specialised for the Custodes makes sense in a practical logistic sense, as well as a 'these are my best dudes, they get the best gear, bar none' sense. Hell the Custodes are possibly the best argument for the 'Marines were good enough for their function' argument, rather than claims about the logistics of Dreadnought chassis.

[Blindhamster]

Primaris are:
 

• Larger
• Tougher
• Stronger
• Faster
• More Intelligent

Or at least, that is how Felix surmises it to himself in Dark Imperium.

As of codex space marines, we know that the reason they're stronger (and probably larger) is because they have synthetic fibre muscles under their skin, sort of like power armour itself.

We can assume they're tougher due to the super adrenaline organ that lets them rapid heal etc.

They have additional implants in the brain that make them smarter.



We also know that by design, they are (currently) more rigid in their approach to war with a more legion style arment. Based on their armour, we also know they're more specialised in their roles than "normal" marines.

 

We know that many of them are thousands of years old in terms of when they were born, but that most of that time was spent in stasis.

We know that they have a more stable build process that allows for all organs to be implanted at once and for a full marine to be created from a candidate in a shorter period of time (some similarities in build process to blood angels - who only take a year to be created and its all done to them in one go - but unlike blood angels that have a very high failure rate, primaris have an exceptional success rate).


Currently they have no obvious flaws, in fact, the flaws inherent to each of their modern day gene seed have been ironed out, with the notable exception of the canis helix and red thirst.


Thats fine though, it's too early, giving them a flaw straight away would have sucked, instead we'll probably get a tragic reveal in a year or two!

[Robbienw]

They are larger because the new Amplifier organ stimulates the Ossumodula and the Biscopea to make them grow even larger than an original marine, all the sinew coils do is increase strength.

 

What would make them more intelligent than a normal marine? None of the 3 new organs have that effect on their own, and their isn't really any of the original organs that increase intelligent which could be affected by the amplifier.

[Ebon Hand]

They aren't smarter, their brain implant simply makes them grow bigger and tougher and amplify their other implants. It even says that the implant is similar to what Primarchs have but is missing the other half. Hormones alone cannot make you smarter, so unless there is extra info in Dark Imperium, all of the Primarus implants only serve to explain their extra wound and size. Edited August 1, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Blindhamster]

Sorry, Im quoting Dark Imperium, where Felix flat out says they're smarter. - They are also shown to be able to access the noosphere, unlike regular marines.

 

EDIT - went back and re read the bit. Nothing about intelligence sorry!

 

however there is a scene where it talks about other "less obvious differentces between the two types as well, but though the unseen was more essential to the salvation of the Imperium"

Edited August 1, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Master Commander Ajax]

The ethos in the studio used to be that the Space Marines could not be bettered and every attempt to do so failed; often with horrific results. The most prominent example of this that I can think of was the 21st or 'cursed' founding but there were plenty of others. They also flat out stated that they'd never do the Primarchs as, and I quote "their place was in 30K". 

 

The studio, however, appears to be much less sacred about these taboos nowadays. I guess you can be in the camp that's happy about this change or the camp that prefers the old 40K concept. Personally, I think the move to introduce elements from the Heresy into the Dark Millenium is doing the setting a disservice but each to their own.

[Robbienw]

There are a few things in Dark Imperium that conflict with the codex fluff, from what I hear (I haven't read it myself).

 

Such as aggressors with Flamers and Missile launchers, Reivers with powered blades, Cato sicarius being present but missing in the codex fluff, and the ultramarines having a 1000 strong 11th company of Primaris chaps!!!

Edited August 1, 2017 by Robbienw

[Volt]

There are a few things in Dark Imperium that conflict with the codex fluff, from what I hear (I haven't read it myself).

 

Such as aggressors with Flamers and Missile launchers, Reivers with powered blades, Cato sicarius being present but missing in the codex fluff, and the ultramarines having a 1000 strong 11th company of Primaris chaps!!!

...Aggressors have flamers and sorta-missiles, and the Ultramarines probably are breaking Codex under Guilliman's orders. There is no longer a 1,000 marine limit. The Black Templars might have as many as ten thousand men now.

[Robbienw]

Aggressors with Flamers just have the Flamers; they can't/don't mount the frag launchers like the bolter version. Probably the author saw early preview images when writing the novel and assumed the Flamer ones could have the launchers as well.

 

The fluff in the new codex is clear that the marine Chapter numbers should still be 1000, that limit still exists.

[Wargamer]

According to the Codex the Ultramarines Primaris are folded into the rest of the Chapter. The Ultramarines still have only 10 Companies and broadly follow the old structure, with modifications to allow for units besides Tactical Assault and Devastator squads Edited August 1, 2017 by Wargamer

[slitth]

I wonder how the old gene-seed will match up with the new updates.

I doubt that all the gene-seed that are in storage will react perfectly with the new organs.

And I know that on one will purge the old gene-seed, just because they get some new stuff from Mars

I just can't see anyone killing of the legacy of the old heroes.

[Brother Augustine]

I personally like the idea that Primaris Marines suffer from hubris. That the very things that make them superior, also carry the seeds of their own downfall, particularly in the all Primaris Chapters formed during the Ultima founding. After all, if they are better, and they know that they are better, why shouldn't they be treated as though they were better? What do they need the advice and knowledge of "those old marines" for? Why should they follow the "inferior breeds" orders? They are the "truest inheritors of the Primarchs' legacy", right?

 

So while in older chapters, we might see the new Primaris marines falling in line as Guilliman intended, maybe in the new chapters, they rail against the idea that their older brethren have anything to offer them, thus creating unnecessary conflict during joint operations, and leaving them open to errors and casualties that might have been avoided.

 

But that is just my humble opinion on an, honestly, surprisingly controversial topic.