Alpharius Omegon... Does anyone else hate this?

[Kaldoth]

So, this is a bit of a gripe-fest type of post, but I am really interested in hearing everyone elses opinions on it. That being said, please keep it civil, as what I'm about to say may hit a personal chord with some people who love the XX Legion. If its been done before, feel free to delete it.

 

I hate the Alpharius Omegon concept. I think its probably one of the dumbest bits of fluff to come from the HH books, for three reasons in particular:

 

1. It goes completely against the original "20 Primarchs." Twin or otherwise, its another Primarch. The Emperor made 20, he said he made 20, his sons knew there were 20. While IIRC the Emperor said he knew about it in the fluff, what possible motivation would he have for keeping that from the other 19 Primarchs?

 

2. Its super cliché, even for the Alpha Legion. I get it, masters of subterfuge, planning, and plots. But really, a secret twin Primarch? Its too much.

 

3. It defeats the purpose of the "original" Alpha Legion. Before the twin primarch concept, Alpharius fought Guilliman and died to prove a point. Even without their primarch, the Alpha Legion won over the Ultramarines because of their battle strategy and their ability to conduct every combat role required, as opposed to Guilliman's traditional style of warfare where each piece had a specific purpose. The fluidity of the XX legion is what won them the fight, and Alpharius's death proved that they were superior in that right. Having a "second" gene father just kind of cheapens that lesson.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on it. Id be interested to hear everyone elses take on it, especially the Alpha Legion players we have here on the board. Maybe Im just the old man who won't let go of the old fluff in this regard, maybe im just misinformed. What are your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

-Kal

[Sception]

Yes.  I hate it.  As I hate most everything that was added to Alpha Legion fluff in the heresy novels.  It's why I stopped reading or caring about that series at all, frankly.

[Skaorn]

I find the idea rather silly, but I don't really take any of the background in 40K all that seriously. I think it would have been more acceptable if Alpherious managed to fake his death vs Guilleman somehow and really prove he was the better strategist when he pops out sometime in 8th to screw Bobby over again. The proper way to use a surprise twin would have been, when on the ropes, say "By the way, I'm not left handed... I mean have you met my twin brother?" who then stabs Bobby in the back.

[Scammel]

 

1. It goes completely against the original "20 Primarchs." Twin or otherwise, its another Primarch. The Emperor made 20, he said he made 20, his sons knew there were 20. While IIRC the Emperor said he knew about it in the fluff, what possible motivation would he have for keeping that from the other 19 Primarchs?

Eh. I think the set-up functions perfectly well as two halves of a whole. Considering the AL's role and the fact that the Emperor regards the Primarchs as he might a toaster, it seems perfectly reasonable to keep this a secret.

 

 

2. Its super cliché, even for the Alpha Legion. I get it, masters of subterfuge, planning, and plots. But really, a secret twin Primarch? Its too much.

This doesn't bother me either. The Heresy is heavily symbolic sci-fi/fantasy space opera, a splash of literalism doesn't phase me.

 

 

3. It defeats the purpose of the "original" Alpha Legion. Before the twin primarch concept, Alpharius fought Guilliman and died to prove a point. Even without their primarch, the Alpha Legion won over the Ultramarines because of their battle strategy and their ability to conduct every combat role required, as opposed to Guilliman's traditional style of warfare where each piece had a specific purpose. The fluidity of the XX legion is what won them the fight, and Alpharius's death proved that they were superior in that right. Having a "second" gene father just kind of cheapens that lesson.

Agree and disagree. Far too often, the author has the Alphas themselves physically sneaking around in cloaks, wearing disguises and getting up to bizarre grunt work rather than being the fighting force that capitalises on the work of human operatives. A&O definitely get up to too much of this, but they still definitely maintain the whole fluidity and independence schtick - in fact. it's the very core of the 'I am Alpharius' thing. The ending of Praetorian of Dorn emphasised this brilliantly, I felt, with the doctrine eventually subsuming personality entirely.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Scammel

[Khornestar]

I don't find the twins as silly as the sneaky secret schemes thing. But, in fairness, I haven't read any of the AL-related books and don't care to. Like Skaorn above, I don't take the background too seriously.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

In an interview with Dan Abbnet he said that the twin primarchs were actually planned for years before it was ever written, and that it was included in HH at the request of GW.

 

Overall i think it was a good thing to include as it made one of the legions truly unique in a meaningful way other than temperment and battle strategy, i will also admit i havent kept up with recent fluff so cant comment on anything that came after that.

[Azekai]

There is a Primarch that is bright red and has magical powers... but the Primarch with a twin is apparently super dumb and credibility-straining. 
http://forgethenarrative.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SM-Facepalm.jpg
It is 40k. One of the major enemies of our faction is Cirque du Soleil.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Azekai

[Panzer]

I agree on your first point but I really don't mind the rest.

[slitth]

So, this is a bit of a gripe-fest type of post, but I am really interested in hearing everyone elses opinions on it. That being said, please keep it civil, as what I'm about to say may hit a personal chord with some people who love the XX Legion. If its been done before, feel free to delete it.

 

I hate the Alpharius Omegon concept. I think its probably one of the dumbest bits of fluff to come from the HH books, for three reasons in particular:

 

1. It goes completely against the original "20 Primarchs." Twin or otherwise, its another Primarch. The Emperor made 20, he said he made 20, his sons knew there were 20. While IIRC the Emperor said he knew about it in the fluff, what possible motivation would he have for keeping that from the other 19 Primarchs?

 

2. Its super cliché, even for the Alpha Legion. I get it, masters of subterfuge, planning, and plots. But really, a secret twin Primarch? Its too much.

 

3. It defeats the purpose of the "original" Alpha Legion. Before the twin primarch concept, Alpharius fought Guilliman and died to prove a point. Even without their primarch, the Alpha Legion won over the Ultramarines because of their battle strategy and their ability to conduct every combat role required, as opposed to Guilliman's traditional style of warfare where each piece had a specific purpose. The fluidity of the XX legion is what won them the fight, and Alpharius's death proved that they were superior in that right. Having a "second" gene father just kind of cheapens that lesson.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on it. Id be interested to hear everyone elses take on it, especially the Alpha Legion players we have here on the board. Maybe Im just the old man who won't let go of the old fluff in this regard, maybe im just misinformed. What are your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

-Kal

 

1. The Emperor did tell the other about the twin because they were supposed to be his secret police. And that would be in the nature of the Emperor to keep secrets.

After all he didn’t tell anyone exactly why he left the crusade.

 

2. Fits the theme of using zodiac sign. Which has be hinted at in the HH series.

 

3. There was not much lore about the XX legion before HH series.

 

Personally I like the concept of the Alpha Legion we are presented with in the HH.

Edited February 3, 2020 by slitth

[Lay]

3. It defeats the purpose of the "original" Alpha Legion. Before the twin primarch concept, Alpharius fought Guilliman and died to prove a point. Even without their primarch, the Alpha Legion won over the Ultramarines because of their battle strategy and their ability to conduct every combat role required, as opposed to Guilliman's traditional style of warfare where each piece had a specific purpose. The fluidity of the XX legion is what won them the fight, and Alpharius's death proved that they were superior in that right. Having a "second" gene father just kind of cheapens that lesson.

 

That's still my favorite incarnation of the Alpha Legion's background.

To me, the HH hasn't done anything near as interesting with the twin concept. If anything, there being a literal twin feels just blunt and gimmicky.

[Sception]

it undermines alpharius's character by reducing him to a gimmick.  I don't care how long they were sitting on the idea, it was a bad idea the whole time, it's a bad idea now that it's canon, and it will remain a bad idea going forward.  Again, just like most everything added to the Alpha Legion fluff in the Horus Heresy series.  They went from the coolest legion to most awkward and annoying.  I almost went with Alphas back in 3.5, because I already had some cultists from the chapter approved days, and everyone else lost access.  In the end I went with Black Legion instead, but it wasn't until the Horus Heresy books started expanding on the Alpha Legion fluff that I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had made the right choice.

[Marshal Loss]

I much prefer the AL as seen in Index Astartes. I did not like Legion and the overwhelming majority of HH stories about them, except Praetorian of Dorn where they finally felt like a real threat (despite what ultimately happens)

[shandwen]

The whole Alpha Omega Gambit is acceptable to me, but the problem I have is how that have such huge and detailed plans where every detail works. In any form of reality random happens, and no level of intelligence or planning or even experience can counter act the random.

A fifty step long insertion against an enemy strong point that involves planting materials throughout a work-zone just wouldn't work out. Ever. Period.

[Doom Herald]

As someone whos introduction to Alpha Legion was that they had twin primarchs, i love it. It would be a secret for subterfuge, which given Alpha Legions covert warfare still works great. Also, if you go with the "two souls, one body" thing, there really were only 20, one just happened to have 2 bodies.

 

What is more, based on the words of Russ, we know one primarch was killed, the other was lost in some tragic circumstances, perhaps when chaos scattered them. Maybe one primarch never even made it into life and thus there really were only 20.

Edited July 28, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Paradigm]

I think the sneaky sneaker thing is more annoying than the twin primarchs. The faction is still one of the coolest in my opinion, I nearly built them when I started chaos, and still consider it on occasion. There are just a lot of things wrong with the "sneaky" marine concept. Infiltrate makes sense, but in eighth I hope they give them extra command points or something instead.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I disagree with basically your entire premise.  Allow me to extrapolate:

 

 

 

1. It goes completely against the original "20 Primarchs." Twin or otherwise, its another Primarch. The Emperor made 20, he said he made 20, his sons knew there were 20. While IIRC the Emperor said he knew about it in the fluff, what possible motivation would he have for keeping that from the other 19 Primarchs?
 

 

What you have to remember about A&O is that they are in fact just one Primarch.  One of the Cabal members -- Slau Dah or Gelatro, I forget -- mentions in Legion that they are one soul in two bodies.  Speaking of their bodies, they are individually smaller and less physically powerful than either of their "full" brothers, all the way down to the fact that they do not have the same near-psychic intimidation factor that the other Primarchs have.  If you read any scene from the point of view of a human or Astartes in the presence of a Primarch, all of them feel mentally and emotionally dominated by the Primarch(s) in the room.  This same feeling is absent whenever someone is conversing with Alpharius or Omegon.  Applying Occam's Razor, it is because they don't have that same force of personality because they are "lesser" individually.  Even their name speaks to the duality of their nature: individually they are called Alpharius and Omegon, but in public, the 20th Primarch's name is "Alpharius Omegon."   They are two halves of the same whole.

 

 

As for keeping that secret from the other Primarchs, you have to remember two things.  First: the Emperor compartmentalized information like it was going out of style.  The very fact that he disappeared to the Throneworld to work on the webway project without telling anyone "not Malcador, Praetorians, or Sisters of Silence" what he was doing and why speaking to this fact.  He hoarded knowledge on purpose, only telling people -- including his sons -- the bare minimum of what he felt they needed to know in order to accomplish the missions he gave them.  How does knowing that Alpharius is a twin help any of the other Primarchs?  It doesn't.  Ergo, they don't need to know.  Second: each Primarch was built in a specific manner with a specific role in mind.  Their genetic codes were not determined by die roll, their personalities and idiosyncracies -- and thus, their tactical and strategic preferences as well as their Legions' modi operandi -- were built into them on purpose.  The Emperor wanted the Alpha Legion to be sneaky and spy-like and operate as clandestinely as genetically-enhanced super-soldiers are able.  If you build yourself a wondrously effective galaxy-wide spy network, why would you turn around and tell anyone who is running it and spill their best-kept secret?  The Emperor would have been shooting himself in the foot.

 

2. Its super cliché, even for the Alpha Legion. I get it, masters of subterfuge, planning, and plots. But really, a secret twin Primarch? Its too much.

 

 

See above.

 

 

3. It defeats the purpose of the "original" Alpha Legion. Before the twin primarch concept, Alpharius fought Guilliman and died to prove a point. Even without their primarch, the Alpha Legion won over the Ultramarines because of their battle strategy and their ability to conduct every combat role required, as opposed to Guilliman's traditional style of warfare where each piece had a specific purpose. The fluidity of the XX legion is what won them the fight, and Alpharius's death proved that they were superior in that right. Having a "second" gene father just kind of cheapens that lesson.
 

 

 

Your premise is flawed from the get-go.  Index Astartes 4 is intentionally vague about whether or not the battle on Eskrador actually happened, pointing out that even the Ultramarines don't admit that they were involved.  The man who provided every scrap of information about the Alpha Legion in that article -- Inquisitor Kravin -- is suspected of being a Legion plant himself and thus all of the information contained therein is unreliable at best.  To point out a specific example of why the Eskrador tale is unreliable, I would point to the description of Guilliman and Alpharius of being of equal stature (they weren't; Alpharius was noticeably shorter than the other Primarchs).  Also, you appear to be operating without all the information; even if one of the twins dies by Guilliman's hand, the rest of the Alpha Legion victory isn't cheapened by having the other twin present as back-up because...

 

 

Dorn killed Alpharius on Luna in The Praetorian of Dorn long before the Scouring even began.

 

[Scourged]

I'm okay with the twin Primarchs. It's not great, but I also can accept the twin souls thing. No weirder than metal hands or wolf blood. It can be a neat dynamic and a decent tragedy if handled well. Whether or not it has is for each of us to interpret. But personally, I don't feel it distracts too much from the character.

 

But where the new lore did lose me was the Cabal. Ugh. See, I got sucked into the many heads of the Hydra by consuming copious lore summaries in the 3.5 days. And in those days, the Alphas were the young misfits - Primarch discovered long after the rest, and (perhaps most importantly) by Horus and not the Emperor. And it was only Horus who showed any camaraderie with the youngest brother.

 

From that point forward Alpharius had everything to prove and wanted to outdo everyone. They would notice him. Tactics became more elaborate and extreme to get their attention. And it worked, assuming negative attention counts. All except Horus - he encouraged his little brother, nurtured him while others rebuked.

 

Then comes the Heresy. The motives for Alpharius's decisions are perfectly clear: he is siding with his brother, not against the Emperor. And Isstavan? That was to show everyone who doubted the real power of the XXth. A rebuke to the rebukes.

 

So adding Omegon didn't have to change any of that. He could be a quick retcon in as the Legion secret and everything still would have worked. But instead everything was rewritten... And yeah, some of all of that still exists in fragments. But it's hard to take it seriously when the primary motivation is "aliens said so, so I believe it... Except I don't and no one knows my reaaaaal plans not even my brotheeeeeer..." ugh.

[Skaorn]

The whole one soul two bodies thing is just turning the silliness of the whole thing from 10 to 11. Of course the whole thing begs the question what the triplet is doing? Three headed hydra, but two Primarchs? You know they're going to pull out a third (It's Sigmar lol).

 

I actually find some of the things Iron Father Ferrum was saying to be even more annoying though. I like sneaky options even though the idea of an 8ft tall and heavily armored man trying to tiptoe around is kind of ridiculous. The idea that you want to use them as a spie network and secret police is just stupid. They aren't setup for it and clearly weren't being used by the Emperor if they were. The Alpha Legion would not be a legion, they would be focused on infiltrating other legions (which seems difficult to pull off considering SM culture unless they were the equivalent of a SM Calledus Assassin). The XX legion would be led by primarch John so Alpharius could run his group without being suspect. Alpharius would have been kept close because you do that with your spie master. If this was supposed to be the case then the HH would have gone a lot differently depending on which side Alpharius ended up on if they were operating as the Emperor's secret police. This is only if they were intended to operate this way just with SM and not within the Imperium at large. Let's face it, SM don't blend in. The thought reminds me of stories a 6'8" and bulky friend of mine had about places he couldn't get into on a visit to Spain as he was just too big.

[Sception]

I don't object to fluff being weirder than before, I object to it being worse than before.  I liked the old Alpharius, the one who was desperate to prove himself, whose big weakness was that he cared about what his brothers thought about him, the scrappy youngest kid always fighting for consideration and respect.  Pretty much all of that disappears with Omegon, because suddenly his most important relationship is with his twin, not with the other primarchs or the emperor.  His previously strong and relatable motivation for siding with Horus at all evaporates completely, as does the entire point of his deliberate self-sacrifice, and the new replacement motivations are terrible.  The changes to Alpharius's character and story with Omegon's introduction traded good, solid pathos for empty gimmickry.

 

Also, I liked the Alpha Legion when they were about flexibility, adaptability, and operating independently of a chain of command, which is literally the opposite of the super complicated 'Exactly as Planned' xanatos roulette memery that's defined them since Omegon's introduction.

Edited July 28, 2017 by malisteen

[slitth]

I don't object to fluff being weirder than before, I object to it being worse than before.  I liked the old Alpharius, the one who was desperate to prove himself, whose big weakness was that he cared about what his brothers thought about him, the scrappy youngest kid always fighting for consideration and respect.  Pretty much all of that disappears with Omegon, because suddenly his most important relationship is with his twin, not with the other primarchs or the emperor.  His previously strong and relatable motivation for siding with Horus at all evaporates completely, as does the entire point of his deliberate self-sacrifice, and the new replacement motivations are terrible.  The changes to Alpharius's character and story with Omegon's introduction traded good, solid pathos for empty gimmickry.

 

Also, I liked the Alpha Legion when they were about flexibility, adaptability, and operating independently of a chain of command, which is literally the opposite of the super complicated 'Exactly as Planned' xanatos roulette memery that's defined them since Omegon's introduction.

 

Most of the Primarchs are trying to prove themself. That hardly something unique to the old Alpharius.

There is hardly anything inspiring or great about a legion's loyalty was to the one that approved of them.

 

And we already have a Primarch that sacrificed himself to prove a point. Konrad Curze.

 

Now the Alpha Legion has leadership that in loyal about all.

Even going so far as enduring the disgrace of being branded traitor to continue their duty.

 

And they are still as flexibility, adaptability, and capable of flexible chain of command.

And to be effective in such a role, you need to have good plans and back up plans.

 

How else to you launch a coordinated attack on all fronts at the same time?

It need to be finely time and coordinated to be able to work.

[Sception]

I'm sorry, but that's garbage.  The idea that the alpha legion could serve chaos while secretly plotting against the gods without anyone catching wise is dumb, and all characters up to the gods themselves have to be dumb for it to work.  The idea that a secretly loyalist faction should be using the chaos marine rules, with daemon weapons, literally daemonic units, etc is equally dumb.  The idea that they would 'beat chaos by siding with chaos' when a difference of -1 legion on one side and +1 legion on the other would have meant chaos had no chance to begin with is also dumb, and requires the reader to be dumb to accept it.  Everything about 'secret loyalist' alpha legion is just the worst and dumbest fluff there is in the entire faction, if not the game.  Grey knights bathing in the blood of sisters of battle is better than that.  Draigo romping around the warp schooling daemon primarchs is better than that.  Deceiver secretly responsible for literally everything that ever happened was better than that.

 

It is, top to bottom, the worst thing.

[Azekai]

I'm sorry, but that's garbage.  The idea that the alpha legion could serve chaos while secretly plotting against the gods without anyone catching wise is dumb, and all characters up to the gods themselves have to be dumb for it to work.  The idea that a secretly loyalist faction should be using the chaos marine rules, with daemon weapons, literally daemonic units, etc is equally dumb.  The idea that they would 'beat chaos by siding with chaos' when a difference of -1 legion on one side and +1 legion on the other would have meant chaos had no chance to begin with is also dumb, and requires the reader to be dumb to accept it.  Everything about 'secret loyalist' alpha legion is just the worst and dumbest fluff there is in the entire faction, if not the game.  Grey knights bathing in the blood of sisters of battle is better than that.  Draigo romping around the warp schooling daemon primarchs is better than that.  Deceiver secretly responsible for literally everything that ever happened was better than that.

 

It is, top to bottom, the worst thing.

Each post you make just keeps reiterating how 'dumb' you find the Alpha Legion storyline. Holding that position is fine and even understandable, but simply saying 'AL = dumb' over and over is poor fare for discussion.

 

I like that the Alpha Legion (or perhaps just elements of the Alpha Legion) is potentially against Chaos. It reminds me of themes of the 5th God. Malal himself might be gone due to copyright shenanigans but the core concept of Chaos turning inward on itself is solid enough. The gods of Chaos are powerful, but they are self-destructive. They are humanity's worst emotions and drives made manifest. Sometimes those lead to self-destruction... and if the Alpha Legion embody that element of Chaos, I am happy for them to do so. 

 

 

 

Edit: and nothing, nothing is worse than Draigo. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Azekai

[Scammel]

To be fair Mal, it's also largely the creation of the fanbase. which has interpreted 'Sided with Horus for the greater good' as 'Secret loyalists'. Yes, there's some suggestion of internecine conflict within the Legion, but my reading is that this reflects the confusion induced by the self-parody the Alphas are becoming over the course of the Heresy.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Scammel

[slitth]

I'm sorry, but that's garbage.  The idea that the alpha legion could serve chaos while secretly plotting against the gods without anyone catching wise is dumb, and all characters up to the gods themselves have to be dumb for it to work.  The idea that a secretly loyalist faction should be using the chaos marine rules, with daemon weapons, literally daemonic units, etc is equally dumb.  The idea that they would 'beat chaos by siding with chaos' when a difference of -1 legion on one side and +1 legion on the other would have meant chaos had no chance to begin with is also dumb, and requires the reader to be dumb to accept it.  Everything about 'secret loyalist' alpha legion is just the worst and dumbest fluff there is in the entire faction, if not the game.  Grey knights bathing in the blood of sisters of battle is better than that.  Draigo romping around the warp schooling daemon primarchs is better than that.  Deceiver secretly responsible for literally everything that ever happened was better than that.

 

It is, top to bottom, the worst thing.

 

The dark gods are powerful in the own right. But they are not all knowing.

Nor are they every coordinated.

 

They constantly plot against one another, and mortals can play the same game.

That why Tzeentch loves mortals, they make the game oh so interesting.

 

Beside in not like the Alpha legion is in constant contact with their "allies"

The Imperium is a big thing to conquer, and the distance make things easier to hide.

And is not like the Alpha Legion do not spent as much time on counter espionage as they do spying.

They are well aware they are in deep cover and my have to kill "friends" and members of the Alpha legion to keep this cover.

 

And chaos used as a weapon against chaos in actually a thing.

Some part of the Inquisition use demon weapons and demon hosts. Not very safe or wise, but it get the job done.

There is even a Gray Knight wielding a demon weapon. Castellan Crowe.

 

And remember all the things we thing we know about the Alpha legion is because we have a gods eye view of the world.

Something the chaos gods do not have. Because if they did, then they would not have lost the war, unless they wanted to lose.

Remember in some cases victory is defeat and defeat is victory.

 

But hey if you think that this is garbage, then is garbage no matter what anyone else says.

I just do not agree.

[Scammel]

Nah, the Alphas aren't remotely loyal. They're Chaos Space Marines through and through, the only difference being that it may have taken them a little longer to realise that their souls were forfeit.