Hey guys; Scouts n stuff

Toxichobbit · August 7, 2017

That's a really big grey area.

The FAQ clearly says that the codex takes precedence. units not present in codexes can be taken from the index, but im not convinced it means that unit upgrades are included in that.

ill put an email into GW

It's not grey, just a bit confusing. It's all in this FAQ here.

There's two relevant questions that kinda contradict themselves, because GW are good at that.

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

and

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

Reading between the lines (because that's the only way one section doesn't invalidate another in the same article) they mean that you should use datasheets from the Codex over those in the Index, but any upgrades or units not in the Codex can use the Index. That they use Dreadnought weapon options as one of the examples confirms that they do consider unit upgrades in the Index but not the Codex as legal.

greatcrusade08 · August 8, 2017

Interesting take. Be interesting to see if Gw reply to me email and can confirm that

Toxichobbit · August 8, 2017

Honestly, they don't need to. They've already said it's legal, unless you think they're trying to trick people when they say you can use Dreadnought options from the Index :p. There are some people in the community who are still refusing to accept that it's fine, stating that the second quote overides the first one, usually so that they can complain about GW taking away their options. How someone manages to come to the conclusion that one quote is more valid than another when both were published at exactly the same time in the same article, I don't know. Most people though, have accepted that both unit entries and upgrades from the Index are perfectly legal as long as they're not already in the Codex.

If you're still feeling unsure, look at the quotes again. The first one specifically calls out unit options from the Index that aren't in the Codex and says you are still allowed to use them. The second quote only says you have to use the datasheets from the Codex over the Index, it doesn't mention unit options and certainly doesn't say that you're restricted to just Codex unit options. Basically quote 1 is saying if a datasheet or unit option is in the Index but not the Codex, use the Index. Quote 2 is saying if a datasheet is in the Codex and the Index, use the Codex version. It's because some things that are in both the Codex and Index have changed (Dreadnought points values for example) and they want you using the most recent version, not because they want to prohibit people from using their models that were converted with previously legal options.

greatcrusade08 · August 8, 2017

Cheers dude, im running it past my gaming group and they seem to accept it, so it works for me going forward.

There is a topic/thread in the -OR- forum, where it wasn't really decided, so was a case on err of the side of caution..

im remedy the new tactica part to represent this

Toxichobbit · August 8, 2017

Glad your group are onboard with it :). At the end of the day no matter what GW says if a group doesn't want to use certain rules there's not a lot you can do.

greatcrusade08 · August 8, 2017

im always looking to go by the "official" rules, because you never know when youll want to attend an actual event.

Ill be magnetizing my LSS weapons anyway (underslinging them as before too)

im ordering 18 scout bikes and 5 land speeder storms next week, so I can start the project going, ive got a few infantry on the way too.

I think this time I wont be converting the models too much, a little on the storms, might get some cool looking helmets for the bikers, any suggestions?

I will be however making some cool looikng bases/mini dioramas for the storms, using imperial ruins and hidden snipers etc, what kind of size bases do you all recommend, warhammer chariot sized?

ONDIG · August 10, 2017

The ASG is,mildly disappointing since it's no longer rapid fire but scout bikes en masse as you've suggested still stand to be a holy terror !Especially w/ the cluster mine stratagem(and shotguns!)For biker heads/helmets I'd look at some of Puppets war stuff many possibilities there.

Captain Idaho · August 10, 2017

Yeah hitting with Shot guns AND twin bolters at the same time is amazing. I consider the extra Strength for half range is a bonus to the actual extra shots.

The Krak Grenades are important though because you lose a single twin bolter (so 1 or 3 shots) for a S6 weapon that does D3 damage for -1ap. D3 wounds is nothing to be sniffed at.

Reyner · August 10, 2017

Tempestus Scion helmets look good on Scouts - I imagine Skitarii Vanguard heads would look cool too?

greatcrusade08 · August 10, 2017

@Idaho. Arent the twin bolters 2 shots at range and 4 close up?

Do you mean one model throwing the grenade, or the astartes grenade launchers?

cheers reyner, ill look at the scion helmets in a bit

Toxichobbit · August 10, 2017

I'd guess he means grenade launcher, as that would replace just the twin bolters. If it was throwing a grenade then it would replace all the models weapons, so both the twin bolter and shotgun.

Twin bolters do indeed have four shots at half range.

Captain Idaho · August 10, 2017

Yes I meant the Astartes Grenade Launcher (1 shot) means you lose 1 shot at long range and 3 shots at close range on Scout Bikers.

Totally worth it.

Seahawk · August 10, 2017

Scouts just took a hard nerf. Infiltrating is now 9" from enemy AND 9" from enemy DZ.

greatcrusade08 · August 10, 2017

ok that kinda sucks, but then land speeder storms cant "infiltrate" anyway, neither can scout bikes, this edition has been hard on that aspect of scouts strategy.

im still not sold on the grenade launchers, id need to do the maths, the AGL have it at range, but the 4 shots up close (with rerolls of 1s for captain, or all rerolls for chapter master etc) is better most of the time.

I suppose it depends on how the rest of my list handles armour, my plan is to have the min scout units with ML and storm teams crack open armour, and let the bikes grind up the corned beef that falls out, I feel more shots is better than AGLs at that..

Although the ability to split fire does keep me guessing

Captain Idaho · August 10, 2017

Oh yeah, you can add Jump Pack Lieutenants to your list too ;)

They can keep up with Bikers just about.

greatcrusade08 · August 10, 2017

yeah a lieutenant near snipers would be epic

greatcrusade08 · August 16, 2017

bit of an update, I think im settled on a decent list.

Proper detachment, 2 HQ, 6 troops and 2 fast attack.

all ultramarines would net me 7 CP

Captain on bike

-terras teeth, combi-melta

Telion

10 snipers, cloaks, HB

10 bolters, ML, combi-melta

10 scouts

-LSS dedicated transport with MM

-4 shotguns

-4 bolter

-ML