Helbrecht Observation...

[Marshal Laeroth]

So with his special rule Crusade of Wrath, it adds one to the strength characteristic to each unit within 6". For the longest time, it hasn't made much difference to close combat weapons that double strength due to the order of operations. Then I noticed something...the add one is a permanent stat change, not just an additional one strength in close combat like the old Furious Charge was. Throw Helbrecht in with a unit of TH/SS terminators, and you get STR 10 termies in close combat.

 

Am I the only one that noticed this?

[Ciler]

Yes, that's handy, the rerolls are also handy since hammers only hit on a 4+.

[Lysere]

It's not units but models within 6". I haven't looked over the actual rules for stat changes so I'm not sure it comes before the multiplier but even if it doesn't that extra point means heavy armor is in trouble, and if it does go to ten then T5 is in real trouble too.

[Ciler]

the rule as per codex states "to their strength characteristic", so there's no doubt that it gets multiplied.

[balordazul]

The system used is unchanged in the format that 40k has used for years.  It goes multiplication or division before applying any addition or subtraction.  Same as you would do for normal math formulas.  

 

You can find this info in the rule book on the side bar of page 175 dealing with Modifying Characteristics.  

 

So a hammer or fist with the buff Helbrecht provides goes as follows. (2 x Strength of model 4 ) +1 Strength from the buff = a Strength 9 attack.

[Marshal Laeroth]

The system used is unchanged in the format that 40k has used for years. It goes multiplication or division before applying any addition or subtraction. Same as you would do for normal math formulas.

 

You can find this info in the rule book on the side bar of page 175 dealing with Modifying Characteristics.

 

So a hammer or fist with the buff Helbrecht provides goes as follows. (2 x Strength of model 4 ) +1 Strength from the buff = a Strength 9 attack.

I am aware of the order of operations. However, the wording of Crusade of Wrath suggests that it is a permanent stat increase, not temporary like a power fist would be (so long as he is within 6"). What happens if you need to take a test against your strength characteristic? You don't factor in the 2x STR from the weapon...but you do take the one STR increase from Crusade of Wrath because it's a characteristic increase, not a modifier. Edited July 30, 2017 by Marshal Laeroth

[Andrés Pacheco]

The Designer's Commentary for 8th Edition has clarified this.

 

Modifiers to the model's Strength characteristic, such as from buffs, psychic powers and special rules, are applied first, in the order of multiplication/division then addition/subtraction.

 

After the model's strength had been calculated, the final strength score is modified by the weapon's strength modifier (e.g. x2)

 

So yeah, S10 hammers all round :tu:

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

I have to agree. The modifier within his 6" bubble clearly states that it's +1 to strength overall, not during the assault phase or anything like that. I'd have to say that as long as the said unit is in the bubble, a Thunder Hammer would, in fact, be hitting at S 10 rather than at S 8. 

 

Now, as for the explanation on PG 175 of the rulebook, remember, their strength within the bubble is already added to before the fight phase starts, so they are walking in at S 5 instead of S 4 with +1 during the phase, so long as Helbrecht was alongside them at the time. I would have to say, though, that if Helbrecht joined the combat AFTER it has already begun, or got within 6" afterward, then the modifier would be second, according to MY understanding.

[balordazul]

It is a modifier as it reads "whilst they are within 6" of High Marshal".  The word "whilst" means "while" so it is conditional that the buff only works while they are in range and not a permanent stat increase but a characteristic modifier.  

 

In all the rules there are very few permanent stat increase and even then as they modify the base stat it is a characteristic modifier unless stated otherwise.  

 

This like this comes up almost every edition and normally GW puts something out in the FAQ talking about + to strength and how they work with strength modifying weapons.  It might not be to this particular example but I will look over there and see if they did it again this edition.  

 

Ok that is funny so the rule book tells you to do it one way and the designer notes completely flips it the other way.  Well done GW.

 

I'm going to send this in to the GW customer support and the community team and request an answer.  Along with a request if the designer commentary is the correct method then when does the rule on page 175 apply.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by balordazul

[Marshal Laeroth]

I didn't even notice that in the designers notes. Awesome to have that clarified. I'll be taking some STR 10 TH/SS termies, thank you! Edited July 30, 2017 by Marshal Laeroth

[balordazul]

Not only that if you are using assault centurions you are looking at a S12 attack if this holds true.   They are down to 75 points with flamers and hurricane bolters.  They do not have the invulnerable save but provide strong close range fire support and hit more reliably than thunder hammers as they don't have the -1 to hit.   

Edited July 30, 2017 by balordazul

[Ciler]

The Designer's Commentary for 8th Edition has clarified this.

I can't find a corresponding entry in the designer's comments, could you point out specifically to it ?

[balordazul]

 

The Designer's Commentary for 8th Edition has clarified this.

I can't find a corresponding entry in the designer's comments, could you point out specifically to it ?

 

Hey Ciler it is the first question on the commentary on the warhammer community page that I think was updated last week.  It is direct conflict with the rule on page 175 making me a little curious what GW is doing or who is answering these questions.   

[Brother Talarian]

To me it would seem as if units that are within 6" get +1 str. So, a marine at str 4 becomes str 5. This remains constant as long as they're within 6". You enter CC, you get a hammer attack, it's x2 str. The models current str is 5, so it becomes 10.

 

Odd that they have conflictin rulings

[Ebon Hand]

I think the reason why the rulebook seems to contradict the FAQ is because they are separate instances of modifiers when it comes to buffs and weapons.  When near Helbrecht, their strength becomes a natural 5.  If there were (just an example) a psychic power on them that gives them x2 str, they would be at str9 as per the rulebook.  If they then attacked with powerfists, they a would be at str 18 as per the FAQ.

 

I think the point that the FAQ is making is that first you have to figure out what their current natural strength is, then use the weapon's modifiers to change it.

 

So yeah, it's str10 Thunderhammers baby.  That should quiet down the grumbling about our chapter tactics/relic/strategem. :D 

[Ciler]

 

I can't find a corresponding entry in the designer's comments, could you point out specifically to it ?

Hey Ciler it is the first question on the commentary on the warhammer community page that I think was updated last week.  It is direct conflict with the rule on page 175 making me a little curious what GW is doing or who is answering these questions.

 

There's half a dozen documents : https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

Which are you referring to specifically, I've just bene through the designer comments, core rulebook and stepping into a new edition documents and neither of these seems to discuss the matter.

[Andrés Pacheco]

 

The Designer's Commentary for 8th Edition has clarified this.

I can't find a corresponding entry in the designer's comments, could you point out specifically to it ?

Sure thing, it's the first Q/A on the Designer's Commentary faq, on the warhammer community new FAQs page:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

 

Its very well hidden for such a major change. Looking at the faq, the text is black, which means it has been this way for a while, but I only noticed it during the latest update.

 

EDIT: You clearly beat me to it :D Look at the Designer's Commentary again, it's the first question.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Andrés Pacheco

[Ebon Hand]

I had the old Designer's Commentary too, this change got added with the "Boots on the Ground" faq update.  Strangely, they don't use the magenta highlight with the Designer's Commentary.

[Lysere]

 

 

The Designer's Commentary for 8th Edition has clarified this.

I can't find a corresponding entry in the designer's comments, could you point out specifically to it ?

Sure thing, it's the first Q/A on the Designer's Commentary faq, on the warhammer community new FAQs page:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

 

Its very well hidden for such a major change. Looking at the faq, the text is black, which means it has been this way for a while, but I only noticed it during the latest update.

 

EDIT: You clearly beat me to it Look at the Designer's Commentary again, it's the first question.

 

 

Very first one in the list, and pretty clear so we do indeed get S10 thunder hammers. Pretty sure I'll be taking Helbrecht for my tournament list idea rather than Grimaldus then.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Makes me wonder if it'd be worth taking Helbrect+Chaplain dreadnought for some Str 16 attacks. Wounding heavy armor on 2+ is no joke.

[Ciler]

Sure thing, it's the first Q/A on the Designer's Commentary faq, on the warhammer community new FAQs page:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

 

Its very well hidden for such a major change. Looking at the faq, the text is black, which means it has been this way for a while, but I only noticed it during the latest update.

 

EDIT: You clearly beat me to it Look at the Designer's Commentary again, it's the first question.

I get it now, see below 

 

I had the old Designer's Commentary too, this change got added with the "Boots on the Ground" faq update.  Strangely, they don't use the magenta highlight with the Designer's Commentary.

Same here, I had the initial version and didn't realise there had been an update.

 

Yep, that's pretty clear, and actually doesn't contradict the rules. You apply all modifiers to base S (multiply first then add), then factor weapon effect (again, multiply then add).

[Ebon Hand]

I want a Chaplain Dreadnought pretty badly now... CRUSH THEM ALL

[Ciler]

Makes me wonder if it'd be worth taking Helbrect+Chaplain dreadnought for some Str 16 attacks. Wounding heavy armor on 2+ is no joke.

Or having your neophytes with combat knife wounding Guilliman on 4+...

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Bonuses to str are not cumulative So No str 16 attacks. I'm sure that it was faqed in blood angels theme

[Lysere]

Bonuses to str are not cumulative So No str 16 attacks. I'm sure that it was faqed in blood angels theme

 

Similar bonuses don't stack, there's nothing stopping different rules from working together. The blood angel thing was more to clear up that the two different bonuses that are the same item just one is on a unique model don't stack as they are the same thing. (Red grail and blood chalice) Didn't see anything else that said anything about bonuses not stacking regarding strength. So yes S16 attacks should be possible, you just need have the model within 6" of Helbrecht and in the same combat as a chaplain dreadnought.