Intercessors, loadouts and tactical value

[chapter master 454]

Given that these guys probably aren't riding in a transport, and that with DoH they will be primary objective-holders, I agree the Auto Bolt Rifle has some merit — it's going to be important that these guys can advance every turn and still be useful. That said, if you aren't IF, the 30" range does let you move and shoot at a longer distance; you could simply start further away than have to retreat. 

 

I do like the idea of these guys vs. enemy infantry, I think their extra wound and second attack makes them much more resilient against GEQ and the like especially in close combat. I wish they had something like bayonets but as it stands they are kind of the Grey Hunters of C:SM — good Troops that can handle an assault better than most of your opponents can.

 

It's true that they're quite a bit more expensive, but I've seen so many games where Tactical Squads just get no chance to fire their bolters effectively and represent a very small, barely useful component of your force. I would rather sacrifice some points elsewhere to buy some of the most resilient objective holders in 40k that can also actually make a difference in the shooting phase, Heavy/Special weapon or not (leave that to the Salamanders.)

 

This is something I notice with tacticals in comparison to intercessors and it really irks me. It's like Intercessors (and primaris in general) feel like actual space marines while oldstartes feel more like 'elite guardsmen'. I feel like tacticals need something to make them actually tactical, like special rules to cover how they are supposed to be the marines who went through training.

 

That being said I do understand, the auto bolt rifles do lack something (mainly being they cost 1 point. If that designer for any reason reads this: please PLEASE tell me why. It is a side grade to the bolt rifle) however in terms of being able to move quickly those sort of primaris could motor it while also being effective ranged threats. Certainly the weakest option (which is compounded by needing to pay a point for them) however not to be discarded freely.

 

Certainly would comment that really the main choice is to stalker or not to stalker. Bolt Rifles if you want them to get across the board and get some good ol' melee going while the ones who are meant to hold back set-up their tent, pull out a 6-pack of emperor's finest brew and see how many headshots they can get.

[Alcyon]

I'd say if you want to run the Stalker Rifles you're better off going with cloak-less Sniper Scouts. 36" range with a chance of mortal wounds is not bad and they are far cheaper; I don't think backline units need 2 wounds and 2 attacks, and if you make them less imposing they're less likely to be shot at anyways. Plus, few anti-infantry weapons have a long range - pretty much just Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Mortars, with the first two likely being prioritized against heavier targets.

 

Bolt Rifles all the way for me, with SftS putting them on frontline objectives and fast-moving support elements to back them up (jump pack assault troops, Inceptors, bikes, teleporting Terminators...)

[Gen.Steiner]

Sniper scouts aren't an option for Primaris-only forces, though.

[Alcyon]

Sniper scouts aren't an option for Primaris-only forces, though.

That is a self-imposed limitation, though. I mean hey, Primaris chapters have to get inductees somewhere right? Do you just jump directly into Power Armour?

[Lemondish]

I'd say if you want to run the Stalker Rifles you're better off going with cloak-less Sniper Scouts. 36" range with a chance of mortal wounds is not bad and they are far cheaper; I don't think backline units need 2 wounds and 2 attacks, and if you make them less imposing they're less likely to be shot at anyways. Plus, few anti-infantry weapons have a long range - pretty much just Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Mortars, with the first two likely being prioritized against heavier targets.

 

Bolt Rifles all the way for me, with SftS putting them on frontline objectives and fast-moving support elements to back them up (jump pack assault troops, Inceptors, bikes, teleporting Terminators...)

 

The downside is AP 0 for the Sniper Rifles, though perhaps it's not so bad since you might benefit from volume of fire since the Scouts are cheaper. 

 

I also think the idea for Stalkers isn't so much to be backline harassers and instead be a really tough objective holder on something closer to your deployment zone, if not in it. As you said, most anti-infantry can't hit that far, so the enemy needs to devote heavy weapons to shift them because they're extremely resilient and will put up a fight in melee. Heavy weapons that aren't firing at anything else. There's some value there, though I think overall the scouts still end up being stronger because the point savings go into something else. 

[Gothical]

It occurred to me the other day that Auto Bolt Rifles do indeed have value (though we do go back to the Intercessor vs Reiver debate): A squad of 5 Intercessors has the same long-range output a 10-man Tactical Squad equipped with just bolters, are arguably more durable (against D1 weapons each single wound taken does not reduce the firepower relative to a Tactical Squad taking the same amount of damage - same goes for melee), and are definitely more mobile.

 

To me that definitely has some value - small, cheap-ish squad that can Ob Sec and put out a lot of anti-infantry firepower whilst remaining mobile as missions demand and defend itself in CC against non-specialists for just 105 points.

 

On a slightly different note, a 10-man squad could be brutal with White Scars chapter tactics, able to move, advance further than normal, shoot, and charge.

[Gen.Steiner]

 

Sniper scouts aren't an option for Primaris-only forces, though.

That is a self-imposed limitation, though. I mean hey, Primaris chapters have to get inductees somewhere right? Do you just jump directly into Power Armour?

 

Self-imposed limitations make this game fun (for me).

 

Yeah, they get inductees, but AFAIK so far they don't have Scouts; you get trained like a modern soldier and finally when you complete your training and your modifications you get a suit of Mk X and a place in the Chapter proper. The Scout's battlefield role is taken by the Reivers.

[Silas7]

Auto boltrifles become more of an option in the intercessor vs reiver angle if your running combat blades for some dedicated CC. Using those reivers to tarpit a unit that was trying to close in on your gunline or your kiting Auto intercessors and generally act as a screening unit on nastier CC troops. You can start building intercessors according to desired synergies.

 

Anyone know what the cost of the aux launcher is and can it be used like a combi weapon?

[Gen.Steiner]

1 point and no, I don't think it can, it just increases the range of the optional grenade attack considerably; so when using a grenade you throw it instead of shooting with any other weapon - same as a pistol - which means you fire the AGL instead of the bolter.

[Silas7]

Having a chat over BA sub forum about possible CT might look like lead to the usefulness of the Autobolt rifle intercessors

 

http://tabletopteacher.blogspot.fr/2017/07/space-marine-unit-spotlight-intercessor.html

 

Link details mathhammer for bolt rifle variants. Which leads me to believe that bolt carbines on reivers are less of an compelling load out if all your intercessors have Autobolts.

[Gen.Steiner]

What is the best loadout for Reivers supporting an Intercessor force of Stalkers and Bolt Rifles?

[Silas7]

What is the best loadout for Reivers supporting an Intercessor force of Stalkers and Bolt Rifles?

 

My vote would be heavy pistol+blade with chutes, but this might be off topic :)

[chapter master 454]

 

What is the best loadout for Reivers supporting an Intercessor force of Stalkers and Bolt Rifles?

 

My vote would be heavy pistol+blade with chutes, but this might be off topic

 

 

Feel free to open your own thread on the tactics behind reivers, their loadouts and what they best support/support by

[Gen.Steiner]

Re Reivers - fair, sorry, not trying to thread-jack. :)

 

 

Having a chat over BA sub forum about possible CT might look like lead to the usefulness of the Autobolt rifle intercessors

http://tabletopteacher.blogspot.fr/2017/07/space-marine-unit-spotlight-intercessor.html

Link details mathhammer for bolt rifle variants. Which leads me to believe that bolt carbines on reivers are less of an compelling load out if all your intercessors have Autobolts.

I was very surprised by this. The Stalkers are reliable and consistent across all ranges but at the sort of ranges most firefights happen in, the Autobolters are actually best...! Weight of fire wins again.

[Deadnaughty]

I'd say if you want to run the Stalker Rifles you're better off going with cloak-less Sniper Scouts. 36" range with a chance of mortal wounds is not bad and they are far cheaper; I don't think backline units need 2 wounds and 2 attacks, and if you make them less imposing they're less likely to be shot at anyways. Plus, few anti-infantry weapons have a long range - pretty much just Autocannons, Missile Launchers and Mortars, with the first two likely being prioritized against heavier targets.

 

Bolt Rifles all the way for me, with SftS putting them on frontline objectives and fast-moving support elements to back them up (jump pack assault troops, Inceptors, bikes, teleporting Terminators...)

sniper scouts don't get you 10 wounds on an objective for 100 points.

Intercessors are good backline objective holders because they are cheap for the durability they bring.. 36" guns keep them relevant while holding said objective.

 

Personally I prefer the basic gun tho. The ability to double tab when someone comes to take your objective should not be discounted.

[chapter master 454]

Re Reivers - fair, sorry, not trying to thread-jack.

 

 

Having a chat over BA sub forum about possible CT might look like lead to the usefulness of the Autobolt rifle intercessors

 

http://tabletopteacher.blogspot.fr/2017/07/space-marine-unit-spotlight-intercessor.html

 

Link details mathhammer for bolt rifle variants. Which leads me to believe that bolt carbines on reivers are less of an compelling load out if all your intercessors have Autobolts.

I was very surprised by this. The Stalkers are reliable and consistent across all ranges but at the sort of ranges most firefights happen in, the Autobolters are actually best...! Weight of fire wins again.

 

that was interesting to read however it doesn't account for how the unit will fight. Yes the math does add up however MathHammer and KillHammer are our forms of Theory and Practice and remember: "In Theory, Theory and Practice are the same. In Practice, Theory and Practice aren't the same" and this is what we must bear in mind.

 

After all, fat load of good those auto bolt rifles do against targets over 24" away if these intercessors are meant to guard your home objective and if you are getting aggressively in the opponents face then the stock bolt rifle out does it. What practice do you use to get max value? The keep away game. Auto Bolt Rifles may have better maths across the board but in practice they can't keep up. A big thing to bear in mind that the best range for those guns is between <15" and up to 24", that's a range band of 9" you have to keep them in to keep their advantage. They literally play like Raven Guard (which is where I believe they are strongest due to their natural want to stay more than 12" away normally) which is powerful and I could see it being a potent infantry shredder that just never gets caught unless the enemy drops something bigger on them (like faster units or long range weapons) but past that they aren't going to do much than play hokey pokey, left leg in, left leg out.

 

Meanwhile, Stalker Bolt Rifles stay at distance, a full 36" away and plaster enemies with some pretty nasty rounds. The main target is heavy infantry. Ok, not the best at it but a theme pops up here: Intercessors aren't the axe, they are the block the neck rests on, the cuffs that keep the enemy bound. Alone they don't kill but they chip away and make so when you strike, everything of the enemy's crumble. In the case of the intercessors, they plink key targets: Small units with good armour saves and wear them down. Maybe get the kill on a terminator or 2. After a brutal fight, they clean up remaining stragglers and cover other units.

 

Finally the bolt rifle is the stock that gives also the lock and smocking barrel approach, most armies only deploy 24" away from each other unless on a 6x4 deployed length ways. That's 9" needing covered. Just move, advance and turn 2 you are dropping rapid fire in their face or if you want just move, shoot then move shoot again. They are meant to advance and get into killing range quickly and effectively. Afterwards they charge the remains (or even better, let stalkers pick off the rest) while they continue their close range bolter blitz.

 

Math-hammer is useful but is not an end all tool. It is a guide, like Killhammer, it lets you understand which weapons have certain advantages and benefits. Just remember, best in numbers ain't best in field.

[Silas7]

I agree, as i've been torn between going for ABR's or just Boltrifles, because my regular opponent seems to always make his 3+ that Ap1 really makes me feel like i'm doing some damage on the other hand, I love the look of the ABR with box mag and planning on my primaris force being BA successors, the aggressive nature seemed like a great fit.  In the end ill have both but the really important bit of info from that Mathhammer link was showing the SBR and how it performed against the other options.

 

Things to remember are the movement to-hit penalty if you ever have to move your squad, the speed at which the enemies can close the gap and engage your 5 shot SBR squad in CC, effects of HQs amplifying ALL options (those ABR's are getting way more shots on target sooner), cost and things like chapter tactics.

 

Perhaps once more games are played we can all come back with a clearer idea of how to best use each weapon to it's full potential.

[Hopper21]

Surely using a mix of interlocking fire from different squads is best approach? ABR advancing up board BR covering the mid group and the SBR camping up in the deployment zone?

[Lemondish]

 

Re Reivers - fair, sorry, not trying to thread-jack.

 

 

Having a chat over BA sub forum about possible CT might look like lead to the usefulness of the Autobolt rifle intercessors

 

http://tabletopteacher.blogspot.fr/2017/07/space-marine-unit-spotlight-intercessor.html

 

Link details mathhammer for bolt rifle variants. Which leads me to believe that bolt carbines on reivers are less of an compelling load out if all your intercessors have Autobolts.

I was very surprised by this. The Stalkers are reliable and consistent across all ranges but at the sort of ranges most firefights happen in, the Autobolters are actually best...! Weight of fire wins again.

 

that was interesting to read however it doesn't account for how the unit will fight. Yes the math does add up however MathHammer and KillHammer are our forms of Theory and Practice and remember: "In Theory, Theory and Practice are the same. In Practice, Theory and Practice aren't the same" and this is what we must bear in mind.

 

After all, fat load of good those auto bolt rifles do against targets over 24" away if these intercessors are meant to guard your home objective and if you are getting aggressively in the opponents face then the stock bolt rifle out does it. What practice do you use to get max value? The keep away game. Auto Bolt Rifles may have better maths across the board but in practice they can't keep up. A big thing to bear in mind that the best range for those guns is between <15" and up to 24", that's a range band of 9" you have to keep them in to keep their advantage. They literally play like Raven Guard (which is where I believe they are strongest due to their natural want to stay more than 12" away normally) which is powerful and I could see it being a potent infantry shredder that just never gets caught unless the enemy drops something bigger on them (like faster units or long range weapons) but past that they aren't going to do much than play hokey pokey, left leg in, left leg out.

 

Meanwhile, Stalker Bolt Rifles stay at distance, a full 36" away and plaster enemies with some pretty nasty rounds. The main target is heavy infantry. Ok, not the best at it but a theme pops up here: Intercessors aren't the axe, they are the block the neck rests on, the cuffs that keep the enemy bound. Alone they don't kill but they chip away and make so when you strike, everything of the enemy's crumble. In the case of the intercessors, they plink key targets: Small units with good armour saves and wear them down. Maybe get the kill on a terminator or 2. After a brutal fight, they clean up remaining stragglers and cover other units.

 

Finally the bolt rifle is the stock that gives also the lock and smocking barrel approach, most armies only deploy 24" away from each other unless on a 6x4 deployed length ways. That's 9" needing covered. Just move, advance and turn 2 you are dropping rapid fire in their face or if you want just move, shoot then move shoot again. They are meant to advance and get into killing range quickly and effectively. Afterwards they charge the remains (or even better, let stalkers pick off the rest) while they continue their close range bolter blitz.

 

Math-hammer is useful but is not an end all tool. It is a guide, like Killhammer, it lets you understand which weapons have certain advantages and benefits. Just remember, best in numbers ain't best in field.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding what issues you have with the assessment in the link. The article did a very good job of arguing why the auto-bolter numbers made it best in field. The use of mathhammer in this case helps to identify trends and relative value, not to declare a single all-encompassing solution informed only by a spreadsheet. No mathhammer model is complex enough for that just yet, which is why the field related factors of mobility and purpose played a major role in establishing the relative value of each option. Your conclusion is exactly what the article concluded, fyi. Your post actually mirrors exactly what the link states. 

 

"Taking everything into account, you really have a choice between the auto-bolt rifle and the vanilla bolt rifle. I would recommend arming your aggressive Intercessors with auto-bolt rifles, and your defensive ones with bolt rifles."

Edited August 14, 2017 by Lemondish

[Alcyon]

Modeling-wise there's hardly a difference between them, right? Anyone looking into a way to switch them up at will? Seems like the bitz would be too small to magnetize.

[Silas7]

Modeling-wise there's hardly a difference between them, right? Anyone looking into a way to switch them up at will? Seems like the bitz would be too small to magnetize.

 

Where there's a will there's a way, but if you wanted to use your SBR's as BR's thats fine with me. So long as you make it clear to your opponent what everything is most would be ok with it too.

[Silas7]

Surely using a mix of interlocking fire from different squads is best approach? ABR advancing up board BR covering the mid group and the SBR camping up in the deployment zone?

 

All the dakka!  The real question is what variant do you equip your captain with; what squads do you want to be buffing?

[Hopper21]

 

 

Surely using a mix of interlocking fire from different squads is best approach? ABR advancing up board BR covering the mid group and the SBR camping up in the deployment zone?

All the dakka! The real question is what variant do you equip your captain with; what squads do you want to be buffing?

TBF I run gman most of the time and use chronus in a Las pred and a techmarine fixing my repulsar as my hq choices.

So gman will be buffing the dudes with assault weapons maximising the +1" advance and charge moves.

[Lysere]

My plans once I finish building the Dark imperium models and pick up a new squad is to have three teams. Two will pack the normal bolt rifles and play the objective game while the third will go with auto bolt rifles and be more mobile.

 

Of course all sergeants will get power swords because why not.

[Hopper21]

My plans once I finish building the Dark imperium models and pick up a new squad is to have three teams. Two will pack the normal bolt rifles and play the objective game while the third will go with auto bolt rifles and be more mobile.

 

Of course all sergeants will get power swords because why not.

Yea same mate just I'm doing other way round. 2 ABR 1 BR.