So, Rhino ramraids? How does everyone feel about this?

[Adeptus]

You take a 70 point Rhino (or whatever their cost is, I'm not totally sure) and then you ram it into a very epxensive shooty unit like, say, a Landraider.

 

No one does any damage in the fight phase, but in it's next turn, the Landraider either has to stay in combat, or fall back. And in neither case can it shoot.

 

And if it DOES fall back, then the Rhino simply charges it again.

 

How does everyone feel about this? Do you feel like it's a glitch in the rules, or a feature of the rules? Something that could do with being addressed in an Errata or FAQ, or it's just fine as it is?

[ONDIG]

Brilliant!I had always thought vehicles should be able to just crash into enemies anyway never understood tank shock .As far as glitch or feature?It may be an oversite but honestly it's fairly easily countered/defended against(troops dismbark leaving the rhino to be assaulted) so I don't think it'll require FAQin like the Fish o Fury!

[Finkmilkana]

I don't understand the issue? Besides easily counterable (just charge the rhino with something cheap, or kill it, or hope that the LR overwatch kills it etc.) it's not much different from any other unit charging the LR. For the price of a rhino you could for example get an eversor, that, while more squishy, still would usually survive in meele with the LR, can actually hurt the LR if he falls back (meltabomb) and can even hurt stuff if you countercharge with something cheap.

[the jeske]

Dont take high cost vehicles unless A they fly. B they cheat and ignore being locked in melee. C your chaff is numerous enough to surived turn 1&2.

[Ciler]

You take a 70 point Rhino (or whatever their cost is, I'm not totally sure) and then you ram it into a very epxensive shooty unit like, say, a Landraider.

 

No one does any damage in the fight phase, but in it's next turn, the Landraider either has to stay in combat, or fall back. And in neither case can it shoot.

 

And if it DOES fall back, then the Rhino simply charges it again.

 

How does everyone feel about this? Do you feel like it's a glitch in the rules, or a feature of the rules? Something that could do with being addressed in an Errata or FAQ, or it's just fine as it is?

It is a problem for armies that need heavy vehicles (such as a land raider crusader) to move toward enemy lines.

 

Thus far, I've only found two solutions, neither of which is fully satisfactory :

• Pull back the land raider after delivering the squad so that it stays broadly out of charge range
• If engaged, retreat, lose a turn but make sure that you neutralise the rhino during your shooting phase.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Depends on what is inside the land raider as ramming it may seem brilliant until a terminator squad, or some form of capable melee squad jumps out and destroys the rhino to free up the raider, yes you've stalled it for a turn but you've also used 70pts of your list for an easily countered atrategy that may not make it to its destination, it would serve any army better to take 70 points worth of anti tank weaponry instead.

Dont get me wrong if you happen to have a rhino on the table and its dropped off its cargo and is pretty much free then use it to tie up as much as possible, or charge it in first to soak up overwatch, better to use whats there and all that.

If the chance is there do it but i wouldnt plan to use it as an effective strategy within a list.

[the jeske]

you know, if your terminators had to get out to kill a 70pts rhinos, that would otherwise stop the high cost LR[and the high cost dudes inside] , and are now taking incoming fire, the sacrifice of a single rhino matters only if it gave up first blood.

 

Not to mention the fact that this doesn't has to be a rhino. It can be a grot that stops the LR.

[Beta galactosidase]

Even if a game is seven turns long, terminators who get out of their transport in their own deployment zone are going to be wasted points.

[Closet Skeleton]

Walls and screening units can stop this, so its not like its a massive issue.

 

Rhinos can't fall back and charge so you can also throw your units into his rhino.

[Midlight]

Are the terminators even going to be able to get out of the LR? Would they not be too close to an enemy unit?

[Kisada]

Really though, shouldn't something as monstrous as a Land Raider be able to fall back and shoot??

Are the terminators even going to be able to get out of the LR? Would they not be too close to an enemy unit?

 

Only prevented from getting out if the LR is surrounded, a Rhino can't do that.  Just need to be 1" away from the Rhino

[the jeske]

You just have to model the rhino with wing like upgrades that move, to represent a fully legit khorn destroyer upgrade of long gone times. It could then easily block all 3 door.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

My point was suggesting any CC unit i just happened to write terminators, it could easily be a lieutenant with a power fist who turns up via jump pack, gets out the land raider and with 3+ to hit and rerolls of 1s to wound with 3/ or 4 attacks he'll eat the rhino and then be set up to buff the land raider next turn, all in all charging a rhino into a land raider is a good move if you intend to stall it for one turn until you get a dedicated unit like terminators or aggressors there to deal with it in CC or prevent it blowing your stuff up but generally speaking it would be better to blow the land raider up before such a tactic was needed

[Kisada]

You just have to model the rhino with wing like upgrades that move, to represent a fully legit khorn destroyer upgrade of long gone times. It could then easily block all 3 door.

 

But in 8th you don't need to exit from a door ... 

[chapter master 454]

It is a daft issue that really irks me. Basically the game still revolves around infantry being king of everything unless you are a flying transport with more guns than you have rights to. Vehicles should just universally be allowed to fall back and shoot.

 

Basically it's one of those finer details GW added and is not bad just needs refining. Hopefully GW does something about this. Someone, just e-mail GW and them that it means land raiders don't have effect and thus don't sell well, that would get an errata next day XD

[Ciler]

To be honest, I'm thinking that the only real problem there is that those vehicles have a WS of 6+. They could ram each other for days and not make any significant damage. Make it a 4+ and we're in business again.

[Xenith]

Run an outrider screen of your own rhinos to protect it.

[Frater Cornelius]

And that is why you take a Repulsor :P

[the jeske]

 

You just have to model the rhino with wing like upgrades that move, to represent a fully legit khorn destroyer upgrade of long gone times. It could then easily block all 3 door.

 

But in 8th you don't need to exit from a door ... 

 

but you have to exit away from enemy. Have you ever seen a fly swat? I have this movable attached to the top of my rhino [legal, chaos can have movable parts on their models vide defilers being still legal] move and drop it "catching" the other tank.

[MysticTemplar]

 

 

You just have to model the rhino with wing like upgrades that move, to represent a fully legit khorn destroyer upgrade of long gone times. It could then easily block all 3 door.

 

But in 8th you don't need to exit from a door ... 

 

but you have to exit away from enemy. Have you ever seen a fly swat? I have this movable attached to the top of my rhino [legal, chaos can have movable parts on their models vide defilers being still legal] move and drop it "catching" the other tank.

 

 

That's... not quite true either - you have to disembark such that you are within 3" of the vehicle, and not within 1" of the enemy.  Depending on base sizes, it is actually possible to disembark behind enemies currently engaging the transport in close combat.

 

Additionally, the measurement rules direct you to measure all distances to and from the hull of a model that lacks a base - and I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that your 'fly catcher attachment' is part of the Rhino's hull.

 

Edit: For reference, the disembark thing is because models are set up where they disembark - they don't move to get there, so nothing in the rules particularly cares about whether or not it was possible for a model to move from the vehicle to their disembarkation spot, as long as it is within 3".

Edited July 31, 2017 by MysticTemplar

[Deadnaughty]

Even if a game is seven turns long, terminators who get out of their transport in their own deployment zone are going to be wasted points.

Why would you get out in your deployment zone?

There is no rule for where you fall back, just that it is outside of 1" so your landraider can 'fall back" strait towards enemy lines after having been charged by a rhino. and then next turn your Terminators are at their destination already.

[Adeptus]

So do we think it's thematic and therefore perfectly fine that a Rhino (or any unit really) charging something like a Landraider can prevent it from shooting for a turn? Or do we think GW should add an amendment that all Vehicles can fall back and still shoot?

[Garreck]

Insofar as any unit being unable to fire for a turn having fallen back out of combat is thematic and perfectly fine...yeah, I'm okay with it.

 

I doubt GW's rules writers specifically imagined folks ramming land raiders with rhinos to prevent them from shooting...but I also don't think that's the measure of whether or not a rule is a glitch.

 

I'm sure someone will figure out a list which makes this feature truly a menace...but honestly if you don't see it coming, and then worse take more than a turn to address the issue once it occurs...then the problem doesn't lie with the mechanic itself. If you're not equipped to remove a single rhino from play in one turn after you realize you've allowed this silly thing to happen, your list probably needs tweaked.

 

Also, obligatory plug for new models and rules (repulsor plus this very scenario) leaving old models behind, allowing them to age out by attrition while also allowing GW to continue to insist they're not discontinuing anybody's models.

[Calyptra]

I'm unclear how a bunch of primitives with melee weapons are able to assault my Raiders when they're 20 feet above the ground. I'm also unclear how said primitives are then able to run faster than my fast skimmer and assault it again the next turn, after its fall back move.

 

Ground vehicles not shooting when falling back doesn't cause me anywhere near that much cognitive dissonance.

 

Vehicles that fly should have clear advantages over vehicles that don't. If you're giving skimmers' schtick to ground vehicles, then skimmers need a new schtick. Like you can't charge them because they're 20 feet off the ground.

 

I'm not saying I think the game should do that. I'm just saying that skimmers and ground vehicles should be different, and that Land Raiders not shooting when falling back is not high on the list of things about vehicles and melee combat that hurt my brain.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

So do we think it's thematic and therefore perfectly fine that a Rhino (or any unit really) charging something like a Landraider can prevent it from shooting for a turn? Or do we think GW should add an amendment that all Vehicles can fall back and still shoot?

 

8E is the edition of sacrificing logic and representation in favor of good rules. It is worth it to get rid of all the problems of 7E if it means things like flamers hitting flyers and Rhinos bullying Land Raiders.

 

Just to give you an example of why it's NOT a good idea to try to make every. Single. Possible. Scenario. "Realistic" or "thematic". Here's how it should work.

 

The Rhino rams the Land Raider, head to head. The Rhino blocks the Land Raider's assault ramp. However, it's not large enough to block side sponsons, nor top pintles. The Rhino engine is not powerful enough, unless it is Blood Angel, to stop the Land Raider's movement.

 

Just imagine HOW MANY RULES you would need for this ONE SPECIFIC SCENARIO. True line of sight from every weapon back (and all its accompanying problems), variable movement speed based on how heavy or strong your enemy is, a "movement penalty" statistic for ramming or close combat (which can also represent people in melee pushing each other to stop or slow charges), a positional/situational access point disabling switch. You can also shoot while in melee as long as your weapon still has LoS. And even if you Fall Back and shoot, "realistically" the Rhino will accelerate as you fall back, staying locked with the Land Raider. You can't "fall back and shoot" in a car in real life, either, the car ramming you will stay stuck to you as he keeps his foot on the accelerator while you hit reverse.

 

GW and 40K have proven they CANNOT handle this level of complexity. So for now, be GLAD that you can do dumb things like headbutt Land Raiders with your Rhinos, because the alternative is 7th Edition, but a million times worse. Just look how much better allies and army building is now. You really want to get back to 7th Edition? For "thematic" reasons? I don't think adding back all the old rules that were removed, and even more rules on top of that is a good idea, because GW removed those rules on purpose in order to streamline the game. Don't get me wrong, I think 8E has its problems, but my Land Raider is much more useful now than it has been in years. 8E Land Raider >>>>>>>> 7E/6E Land Raider by a mile.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Tyberos the Red Wake