So, Rhino ramraids? How does everyone feel about this?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Should just be something as simple as vehicles locked with other vehicles in combat can only shoot that vehicle during the shooting phase even if locked in combat... seeing that those guns mainly can only aim at that vehicle...

[ERJAK]

You take a 70 point Rhino (or whatever their cost is, I'm not totally sure) and then you ram it into a very epxensive shooty unit like, say, a Landraider.

 

No one does any damage in the fight phase, but in it's next turn, the Landraider either has to stay in combat, or fall back. And in neither case can it shoot.

 

And if it DOES fall back, then the Rhino simply charges it again.

 

How does everyone feel about this? Do you feel like it's a glitch in the rules, or a feature of the rules? Something that could do with being addressed in an Errata or FAQ, or it's just fine as it is?

My general thought is 'heh, good luck with that.'

[Gratan]

This is why I carry a sock full of d30s... 

add a handful of d4s if they need an extra bit of learnin...

[Calyptra]

This is why I carry a sock full of d30s... 

add a handful of d4s if they need an extra bit of learnin...

I'd have thought the D4s would be for when you have to run away and they chase you.

 

Many a gamer has been laid low by Dcaltrops. They're worse than Legos.

[Extropian]

It's a thing for sure, but it's really quite trivially countered by good positioning, screening units....or just being Ultramarines :p

[Garreck]

So if, through tactical oversight or inattention, you allow your opponent to assault your land raider with a rhino...instead of falling back in good order and blasting it with your remaining available firepower, you're going to (I assume in good humor) menace your opponent with a sock full of dice?

[Ciler]

So if, through tactical oversight or inattention, you allow your opponent to assault your land raider with a rhino...instead of falling back in good order and blasting it with your remaining available firepower, you're going to (I assume in good humor) menace your opponent with a sock full of dice?

Well, it's not THAT simple. A Land Raider, specifically in the crusader variant, has to move up field to deliver the troops it's carrying and get within 12" for its hurricane bolters. It is rather difficult to be that close from the enemy line and yet more than - say - 18" away from any enemy rhino. I've picked 18" because that's 12" of rhino movement then a realistic 6" charge.

[The Unseen]

If you weren't planning on disembarking your unit the turn the rhino is there, you can call back foward where you need the passengers to be.

As long as the enemy cannot surrond the vehicle, they can still get out next turn.

 

You just lose your shooting as the penalty for letting a rhino live to try and ram your raider.

[Adeptus]

We're none of us idiots, we know that killing or otherwise dealing with the Rhino is the solution, what I'd prefer to discuss is if this particular problem should exist in the first place. Should a Landraider (or any vehicle really) be prevented from firing after it falls back?

[Garreck]

Should a Landraider (or any vehicle really) be prevented from firing after it falls back?

Sure.  Why not?  Easy baseline behavior for vehicles with special keywords to deviate from.  I'm not emotionally attached to the idea though.  If they were to change it, I'd be cool with that too.

[TheOneTrueZon]

If a Rhino charges a LRC twice and survives two rounds of overwatch from all those guns?

 

It deserves a medal. 

 

Rhino just wants a hug from it's big brother, that's all. 

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

A smaller vehicle ramming a bigger meaner vehicle? Sir John Reginald Gorman of the Irish Guards did just that in Normandy, to a King Tiger. I don't know if you could implement what he did on the table top, but it could make for interesting games.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

We're none of us idiots, we know that killing or otherwise dealing with the Rhino is the solution, what I'd prefer to discuss is if this particular problem should exist in the first place. Should a Landraider (or any vehicle really) be prevented from firing after it falls back?

 

I feel like it shouldn't, so you're right to bring it up. A player shouldn't be able to throw away very cheap units to completely negate very expensive units, especially when many armies cannot even take cheaper units.

 

Maybe something like above a certain size or toughness can choose to not Fall Back and not fight in melee, but be allowed to still shoot some or all of their guns? That might be too OP, but it's the only way I can think of to make a "simple" fix to this problem without just constantly falling back and being charged again.

 

I think having proper terrain and good play can also help mitigate this issue. While it's also a mechanic that the owner of the expensive unit wouldn't enjoy, I also feel like it's your responsibility in both the list making stage and the gameplay stage to acknowledge this inherent weakness and try your best to prevent it, instead of just allowing your stuff to be garbage charged and then complaining about the mechanics. It may not be the mechanic itself at fault, but the cost disparity or ineffectiveness of the weapons, if the opponent is able to infinitely lock you down with cheap stuff, or your guns are too weak to kill cheap stuff.

[Extropian]

I don't mind. Thematically its odd, but its better for balance.

 

If you want to see what happens why heavily armed vehicles get to shoot after falling back, watch a couple of battle reports with super heavy IG tanks. Specifically in the 1500-1750pt range, and ESPECIALLY if they are facing an army that doesn't have overwhelming firepower.

 

They kill everything. Especially if it's one of those heavy flamer sponson ones.....

 

Melee units might as well not even bother. Charge, cause a few wounds, then it withdraws and deletes a unit or two. Repeat until you run out of army or it runs out of wounds. There's no way to actually counter it. 

 

Frankly, shooting is already stronger than close combat. I don't mind sacrificing a little realism to enable some tactics to counteract the very powerful vehicles that 8th has.

 

In all honesty, i wish they'd take the ability away from flyers too. 

[Trevak Dal]

Don't Ultramarines chapter tactics shoot this in the foot? But maybe that is only for infantry and dreds?

[Extropian]

Yep, doesn't work for vehicles.

[Trevak Dal]

Make em -1 to hit for disengaging (potms not taking effect except to make it so the landraider hits on 4s instead of 3s)

 

GW would probably say, "well if you had purchased more tactical and scout squads or a Astramilitarium army as an ally that wouldn't be much of a problem"

 

And it kind of is a nothing problem. Look at G Money's book of War, and there is a unit to handle your woes.

 

Assault marines are fast interdiction units, but the metapod armored guys with heavybolter smgs might be a better option-able to assault and then fall back and shoot.

[Deafbok]

I feel like the question not being asked here is "What happens to the crew when their vehicle is rammed?" They're the ones with their fingers on the triggers of those big retreating guns, lest we forget.

[chapter master 454]

Played a game where I was able to do this to some squads of infantry even that weren't utramarines nor anything with fly or similar abilities that need to shoot: It gets silly. More like Armoured Pest Car these days, just roll it up to any squad and keep them lock with it.

 

I feel tanks shouldn't be allowed to be locked in combat like this as it really isn't thematic. Tanks shouldn't want to get close to infantry. Would imagine making it so the infantry can use their guns in combat against vehicles (not walkers maybe) as a tank can't exactly get up in your grill while you try and fire it. That or tanks don't count as being engaged in combat past the first round. Same thing for fighting other vehicles which would represent ramming.

[Finkmilkana]

Well, letting them overwatch and then also shoot next turn would be too much. The only other option would probably be to allow them to shoot when falling back, but in turn not giving them overwatch. As it was done in 7th. I don't think people would want that though, would they? Edited August 3, 2017 by Finkmilkana

[Frater Cornelius]

This sounds like a great idea for a Mad Max styled army full of ramming vehicles :D

[Wargamer]

This tactic will work really well right up until your opponent reminds you they are using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, at which point their Land Raider reverses and blows your Rhino into a slightly smaller crater than it would otherwise have been.

[Kisada]

This tactic will work really well right up until your opponent reminds you they are using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, at which point their Land Raider reverses and blows your Rhino into a slightly smaller crater than it would otherwise have been.

 

chapter tactics don't work on vehicles.  Infantry, bikes, and dreads only