Combat Squad Vs Double Squad

[Custodian Athiair]

Since I'm now going to be able to take part in the Konor campaign I was thinking about army selection/deployment. And it occured to me that combat squads now more than ever are insanely useful.

 

Splitting the squad into a five man blob infront of a much shootier (maybe with Sgt) unit in behind. It means that only five men can be charged at a single point. Should they survive then can then fallback and allow their heavy/special weapon toting brethren to rain fire upon the enemy.

 

Why this thought didn't occur to me before is because I'm rusty and useless as competitive play xD

 

But then the follow up point I've seen/though about is that, why take one squad of 10, when you can take two squads of 5 anyway. Then you're doubling up on sergeants, and on troop choice allocation for those tasty extra CPs.

 

The only downside to this I see, is that you're not going to be able to have a 5 man detachment with two damaging weapons (double plasma is what I've been thinking about, but that applies to just my army). So the secondary squad isn't going to be able to throw out the fire power it could if you combat squad.

 

Additionally if you're playing with Power Levels, then you're having fork out an extra PL for the second squad.

 

What are the opinions between these two options from the more tactically capable / competitive players in the forum?

[LucidNinja]

The only real benefit of big units of tacticals is auras, you need 1 man in range to effect a unit. That is the only benefit I have come up with. I believe it's the age of the 5 man squad haha.

 

Devastators and other units benefit more from cheep bodies still.

[Custodian Athiair]

The only real benefit of big units of tacticals is auras, you need 1 man in range to effect a unit. That is the only benefit I have come up with. I believe it's the age of the 5 man squad haha.

 

Devastators and other units benefit more from cheep bodies still.

Just to be clear, is this 2x 5 man squads; or 1x 10 man squad in combat squads?

[LucidNinja]

2x5 man. Sergeant LD for free. Only reasoning for combat squad is to get a special and heavy together. 2 combat squads of melta gun, Combi melta sergeant and Grav cannon in a drop pod is some nasty close range dakka. Or 1 squad of the above in a razorback with a captain.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

There is zero reason and no point in taking full squads, outside of the following points:

 

1. You don't have enough troop slots to split all the squads.

2. You want to have a combat squad with both a special and a heavy weapon in it.

3. You can choose not to combat squad with a full squad in games where kill points are important.

 

Other than those reasons, taking squads of 5 are better in every possible way, especially now that they can share transports anyway, Battle Shock is now a thing, and the price of sergeant wargear dropped so much. The old benefits of MSU, extra characters, and getting more special weapons and combi-weapons still remain as well. If there are any benefits of 10 man squads that I missed, I'd like to know about them since it's my preferred choice of squad size.

 

I think it will depend on how the tournament missions work, but it seems like right now most of the tournament marine players are choosing minimal 5 man units, and putting combis and melee weapons on the sergeants, leaving them either on foot or giving them Razorbacks.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Custodian Athiair]

Okay thanks, guys. I'm not looking to totally power game/tournament play. I still prefer selecting 10 man squads cause it just feels right to me, but personal preference etc.

 

Also for the next few games I'm playing (aka Konor) games are being run via Power Levels, so it's not quite so "free sgt" as you've got the 5 vs 4 PL debate.

 

I think I'm likely to combat squad now, depending on mission objectives, but for really competitive games yeh it does seem 2x 5 is the better option.

 

Thanks, guys!

[mathaius]

2x5, being able to load 4 special weapons on a rhino without occupying an Elite slot is awesome.

[Custodian Athiair]

2x5, being able to load 4 special weapons on a rhino without occupying an Elite slot is awesome.

 

4 special weapons? Are you including combi-weapons?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Presumably.

[mathaius]

 

2x5, being able to load 4 special weapons on a rhino without occupying an Elite slot is awesome.

 

4 special weapons? Are you including combi-weapons?

 

Yes, i'm giving combis to all my sergeants, finally we can have 2 special weapons in a 5 men squad

[Alcyon]

It's also important to note that going the MSU route is less likely to get you first turn now, even when you're technically outnumbered in terms of models. Seems like a no-brainer to run 2x t-man squad of Vanguards, Tacticals, Intercessors, whatever instead of 1x10, but that's another deployed unit in a situation where a single deployment can make a huge difference in 1st/2nd turn.

 

I think GW may well consider changing to the ITC format given how strong 1st turn is right now; that's where if you deploy less units you get a +1 to the roll-off for first turn. In the meantime though for anyone running an alpha strike or facing alpha strikes this is a major consideration.

[Lemondish]

It's also important to note that going the MSU route is less likely to get you first turn now, even when you're technically outnumbered in terms of models. Seems like a no-brainer to run 2x t-man squad of Vanguards, Tacticals, Intercessors, whatever instead of 1x10, but that's another deployed unit in a situation where a single deployment can make a huge difference in 1st/2nd turn.

 

I think GW may well consider changing to the ITC format given how strong 1st turn is right now; that's where if you deploy less units you get a +1 to the roll-off for first turn. In the meantime though for anyone running an alpha strike or facing alpha strikes this is a major consideration.

 

It's too bad first turn can't just be more of a benefit for controlling territory than causing as much damage as possible. Guess it would have to either come with rules or new deployment maps that put people much further apart. 

[Stoic Raptor]

The deployment zones are too ridiculously deep now.  No Man's Land is like the middle 12" of the table.  It makes scouts a lot less effective for infiltration.

I'd like to see a return to the more narrow deployment zones so that whoever goes first isn't already in weapons range.  That would literally level the playing field, especially now that they're making the change to how first turns are determined.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With split fire I don't see it as worthwhile to run five man squads and they just die twice as fast now.

[Stoic Raptor]

Not at all - if your opponent is firing everything at one five-man squad, the other is unscathed.  If he's splitting fire, the Marines die no faster or slower than before.

The only difference is in mobility - five-man squads don't need to keep coherency with the other five.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A five man squad of Primaris in cover will die in one turn of enemy shooting easily.

[Stoic Raptor]

... and a 10-man unit will die no slower or faster than two five-man units.  I'm not seeing what's so hard to understand about that.  If there's enough firepower to kill 10 marines, it'll happen if they're bunched up in groups of five or 10. 

 

In fact, two five-man squads might last longer because your opponent needs to split fire - and as such, he can't direct all shots at one unit and let the wounds add up.  He's got to split the shots and it's possible that neither unit will be eliminated.  Also, they don't have to all stand together.  But since you mentioned cover, it's easier for a five-man squad to get entirely in cover than a 10-man squad.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

A five man squad of Primaris in cover will die in one turn of enemy shooting easily.

 

But will only lose 5 casualties at max. It really depends on the situation. One thing 10 man squads have is the option to stay as a full squad or combat squad, either via deployment or stratagem, which is neat. Ten man squads will also conga line better. You will be hard pressed to find an opponent who can split fire perfectly to kill exactly 5 models and wasting zero shots, whereas against a larger squad he doesn't even need to bother. Shooting with everything can net him more than 5 kills.

[Lemondish]

A five man squad of Primaris in cover will die in one turn of enemy shooting easily.

Pretty much everything shy of a Titan will die if focused, but that won't be the only unit your enemy shots at. If it is, then take that same 5 man Primaris squad every game because they'll win it for you every single time.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those are some great points in favor of 5 man squads for sure. While the topic is in regards to 5 or 10 man squads with the option to split into combat squads I've found the optimal number for me per squad is eight including the sergeant. Edited August 22, 2017 by Black Orange

[ak-73]

If you have less than 7 models, morale is not an issue.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am using smurf chapter tactics.

[AdamR]

Another point no-one seems to have mentioned - 10 man squads get better value from stratagems.

 

I'd rather Auspex Scan with 10 Hellblasters than 5.

 

Doesn't help if you've alreay combat squadded obviously!

Edited September 21, 2017 by AdamR