Rampant Hive Fleet Speculation - UPDATE W/ LEAKS 3rd Nov

[Xenith]

So, GW have confirmed that all sub factions within each base codex will be getting unique rules - for the Tyranids, this means "Hive Tactics" for Behemoth, Kraken and Leviathan, and maybe more.

I don't know enough about the fleets and their preferred method of war, but does anyone have any ideas about how the fleets would differ?

Are any known for using bigger beasts? More psychic?

How about:

Hive tactic Kraken: synapse range is increased by 1"

Due to all the eldar they ate.

 

EDIT: UPDATE WITH LEAKS

 

Copied from here

 

Summary:

Synapse is now 12" base, 18" for HTs
IB indeed has a -1 to hit Malus for shooting. BUT only if u aim at something that isn't the closest unit
Likewise it's -2 charge distance(I think) if u attempt to charge something that isn't the closest unit

Hive Fleet adapations (apply to everything)
behemoth: reroll failed charges
Kraken: can charge after falling back
Gorgon: reroll 1s to hit for fight phase
jormungandr: A unit with this adaptation (other than units that can fly) always has the benefit of cover for the purpose of shooting attacks. If the unit advances or charges, however, it loses the benefits of this adaptation until the start of your movement phase. 
hydra: reroll misses against units with less models during fight phase
kronos: reroll 1s to hit for shooting, IF the unit doesnt move
Leviathan: looks to be the same as salamander tactic but i'm not 100% sure UPDATED Units within 6" of Synapse gain 6+++ (does not stack with Catalyst)

Psychic Powers
* missing at least 3 powers*
Psychic scream, WC5, Targets nearest enemy within 18" does d3 mortal wounds. if the target is a psyker, also roll 2d6. if the value is higher than the enemy psyker's leadership, the enemy psyker loses 1 spell at random
paroxysm WC5, target enemy unit within 12" of the psyker fights last. (there's a whole big ass block of text here talking about exceptions and what not)
*cant remember the name* target unit within 36" of the psyker essentially gains synapse
warp blast is the same except at a unit of 6 it deals d3+3 instead of d3+d3

Warlord Traits
Generic
1) First battle turn, before first turn, you can remove your warlord and set them up again. 
2) Never suffer any hit roll penalties. Overwatch still on 6s.
3) Add 6" synapse
4) WL kill a character in fight, friendly hive unit in 3" , get to move as per normal again at end of phase.
5) Before battle start, choose opponent unit. WL reroll all failed hit rolls against that all units with the same dataslate. (etc. All obliterator squads)
6) After end of any phase, wlt take a wound, remaining of battle, all dmg to wl -1

 

Hive Fleet
Behemoth: WOund roll of 6 in fight phase. that attack +1 dmg
Kraken: 1 friendly kraken unit within 6 of wlt, can fight first in fight phase even without charging
Leviathan : 1 per battle round. you can reroll a single hit/wound/dmg /advance charge or saving throw for the wl.
Gorgon: end of fight phase. roll d6 for every enemy within 1" of warlord. on 4+, that unit suffer a MW.
Jormungandr: Enemy unit dont gain bonus to saving throw for being in cover by attacks from wl, or friendly Jormungandr units within 3 of wl.
Hydra: Beginning of each of your turn, roll a dice for each wound WL suffered, on a 6, heal.
Kronos: Enemy psyker fail a psychic test within 18 of your wl, they suffer D3 MW

Stratagems
1cp the enemy below (jormungandr)
use strat when jor inf set up, put it undergorund. whenever u set up raveners mawloc trygon or trygon prime. any no of its unit can be set up within the tunnels, 3 inch from burrowing unit ,9 inch away enemy. 
1cp brute force (behemoth)
use when benemoth unit complete charge . roll d6 for each behemoth charging model within 1inch of enemy. each roll of 6, 1 MW on enemy unit. 2+ for a behemoth monster charging
(30 man gant charge in, roll d6 for all, on a 6 chuck a mw)
1cp war on all fronts (leviathan)
fight phase. select enemy within 1inch of 1 flying and 1 nonflying leviathan unit. can reroll hits & wound rolls of 1 for levi attacks against the enemy unit
1cp Against Shadow (Kronos)
enemy psyker attempts to cast a spell within 24 inch of kronos unit. that psyker can only use 1 dice for his psyk test. 
1cp Hypertoxicity (Gorgon)
fight phase. choose gorgon wiht toxin sac, the biomorph do 1 additional dmg on wounds roll of 5+ instead of 6
2cp Endless Swarm 
Select a destroyed unit of gants, horms, garg or any hydra inf unit that has been completely destroyted. Add an identical unit to your army and set it up as reinforcement wholly 6inch of any board edge , more than 9 inch from enemy
1cp Opportunistic Advance
Use in move phase for advancing Kraken unit (noFly units), can double number you roll for advance and add to the move characteristic 
3cp Call the Brood
end of move. add a new unit of up to 5 genestealers, wholly within 6 of a brood or infestation node but more than 9 from enemy
3Cp adrenaline surge
end of fight phase. select a nid unit from army, can immediately fight again
2cp Digestive Denial
After deployment but before turn start. choose a piece of terrain othre than fortifciation. 
Units fullywithin or on this piece of terrain do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover..... 
lol if anyone piles their whole army onto one big terrain in their deployment. 
2cp single minded annihilation
end of shoot phase, choose inf unit, shoot again lol (devil gants/hiveguard lol)
1cp grisly feast
morale phase. select ripper or haru. enenemy within 6 inch must add 1 to morale test
2cp pathogenic slime
shooting phase. select nid mon. increase dmg of its attack by for this phase. lol 2dmg dakka flyrant/exo/tyrannofex
3cp sporefield 
after both armies deploy, add up 2 unit of spore mines as reinf, more than 12 inch from enemy
1cp invisible hunter
move phase. lictor within 1 inhc of enemy. that model can fall back shoot and charge. 
1cp power of the hive mind
end of psyk phase, choose a nid spyker that casted earlier, can cast 1 additional power
1cp pheromone trail
choose when nid inf set up as reinf/reserve. if got lictor on battlefield, you can set up wholly within 6 inch of lictor and more than 9 from enemy
2cp death frenzy
use when nid char die, it can shoot again as if it were shooting phase, or fight again as if fight phase before its removal
1cp overrun
use when nid unit destroys an unit in fight, and not within 3 inch of enemy. that you unit can forgo consolidation, but move and advance as if movement phase but cannot move within 1inch of enemy model
1cp voracious appetite
fight phase, nid mon or character is chosen to fight.can reroll all failed wounds for that model til end of phase
psk barrage 
need 3x3 zoans to shoot a point, all unit within 3 inch of that point rolls. 4+ unit suffer 3d3 mortal
1cp caustic blood
start of fight phase.select nid unit, roll d6 when a model dies, on 6 enemy suffer mw
2cp rapid regen
end of mov, heal d3 
1cp scorch bugs
shoot phase
seelect nid, +1 to wound for all feshborer or fleshborer hive attacks
1cp feeder tendrils
when gene lictor toxi venom kills a chara in fight phase, gain d3 cp
1cp implant attack
use aft nid unit fight in fight phase. roll d6 for each wounded enemy model and not slain. 2+ suffer , model suffers a mw
1/3cp bounty of hive fleet
artefact thing
1cp metabolic movement 
use in move , after a nid unit as movemed. you can move that unit again includ advance. however roll a d6 for every model, on a 1 , unit gets a MW. cannot shoot or charge that turn.

Relics
Generic

relic for any character that gives either +1S, +1A or +1T during fight phase. roll dice to see which buff
relic venom cannon. same stats as a venom cannon except d6 shots. but if the target is within 12" it auto hits and always wounds on 2+ (except vehicles)

Norn crown 30 inch  that negates the effect of IB, but doesn't give you anything else. 

Reaper of obliterax(bonesword/whip or monstrous bonesword & whip) on 6 to wound do double damage

 

Hive Fleet Specific

Kraken relic: -1 to hit from enemy shooting
Gorgon relic: after being wounded the first time gain 1T for the rest of the game

Wargear
<General>
A lot of weapons cost are slightly cheaper and inbuilt into the base cost of units that only can have them.
i dont have the numbers but there are many reductions in costs for big bug melee and ranged weapons. eg. massive scything are now 10pts. massive scything talons in a pair are cheaper too. monstrous scything talons are much cheaper too.

Stinger salvos are now 24 inches
HVC 36 inch assault D3 S9 2AP 3damage 

VC 36 inch assault D3 S8 2AP D3 damage
Stranglethorn is 25pts

 

1x Devourer with brainleech is 7pts. Assault 6
1x deathspitter with maggot is 7pt. Assault 3
Monstrous boneswords are 20pts
Monstrous boneswords with whip are 15pts

 

Units
APPROXIMATE base on old to current default loadout -- 
Carnifex -5
Exo -10
Haru -80
Crone +10
Harpy +5
Tyrant -20
Flyrant -15
Pyro -5
Tyrgon -10
Trygon Prime -15
Tyrannocyte -15
Tyrannofex -10

hive tyrant is now t7, 12W. wings will have deepstrike. has a base 4++. down one attack [to 4]. didnt manage to see the pointage or the wargear options. no idea if monstrous rending claws are still a thing.can still take MRC

Swarmlord does still have hive commander. On 6s to wound he does one additional mortal wound
swarmlord is t7, 12w, 4++. his blade parry makes it 3++. no other notable change i think. uses leviathan warlord trait

 

old one is is now 9 wounds. 200 pts. hits of 6 generate one additional attack. can be equipped with a scything talons relic that +1s ap-3, 3dmg, +1 attack. uses behemoth warlord trait. No degradation

 

Neurothrope is now HQ, a character and no longer part of a zoanthrope unit. zoanthropes within 6" of a neurothrope reroll 1s for psychic tests. the spirit leech thing now only heals 1 wound for a zoanthrope unit withint 6". 70 points all in

Maleceptors deal 3 mortal wounds if we roll a 6 on that weird aoe ability. it knows 2 spells and can cast and deny 2 spells. also t7. also 4++
maleceptors total pointage including wargear is 172. T7, 12W

 

venomthropes and zoans are still fielded as units of . When in grp of 3 also affect monsters. when in a grp of 6, the aura becomes 6". 

genestealers remain the same. but have an option of getting +1 armour but they lose swift and deadly. ( GW)
bs4 got flesh hook as option. New ability: infestion can put 4 nodes in ur own deploy area , if enemy near it , it disappears. u can pop up from any of the 4 nodes as per normal ds/reserve. 

Gargoyles gain DS
no changes to raveners..
Shrikes are gone
Crone lost 1 base attack but tail weapon is free attack. Tentaclids are 4 shots
Red Terror -1 WS/A

Toxicrene - toxic lash are AP-2
tyrannocyte is now 100 pts. 5pts for each deathspitter. Transport rules unchanged

exocrine with all wargear is 210 or something like that. minor points decrease

tyranofex is 185 pts. 
rupture cannon is 47 or 49. rupture cannon profile is heavy 3, s10 ap-3 d6 damage. thats all. no more funky "if it hits both..blablabla"
Acid spray 18" 2D6 hits

 

Tyrant guard still suck. scything talons are still 0. rending claws are still 2. boneswords are still 4. crushing claws are 12 (stats unchanged)

 

Warriors are still the same

 

Zoanthropes are the same.

 

Haruspex has a big one. biovores are the same. the spore mine rules are the same too.

 

Hiveguard are either the same or has an inconsequential decrease in points.

Carnifex comes stock with tresher scythe which is now zero points and is the same wording as the hive tyrant. which is, it makes its profile attacks, which in the codex is 4, and then also makes the tail attack, which is now 1d3 attacks. There are now 3 seperate carnifex entries. 1.) Carnifex 2.) Screamer killer 3.)

 

Thornbacks are base 70.  Thornback carnifex including 2x monstrous scything talons clock in total at 83 pts. The 2 pairs of monstrous scything talons for carnifexes are 15 pts, 1 pair is 14 pts. at the end of combat roll d6 for each enemy unit in combat with it. on 6 deal 1 mortal wound. Starts with 2 devourers with brainleech worm.  It can swap the devourers with deathspitters with maggots. And a pair of monstrous scything talons. It can swap the claws with a stranglethorn only. And a chitin biomorph

 

There are individual upgrades for basic carnifexes. +1BS, +1 attack on the charge, -1 to hit from enemy shooting. on the charge carnifexes and screamer killers now get +1 WS on top of the current battering ram rule. Screamer killers come stock with "bio plasmic scream" which is 0 points, 12" assault 6(not sure on the number), S7 ap-1, 1damage. screamer killers come stock with 2 monstrous scything talons as well. 90 pts in total

Carnifex biomorphs:
-1 to hit from enemy shooting biomorph is 10 pts - does not stack with shrouding spores
+1 attack on the charge is 8 pts
+1 BS is 10 points

Original post:
There's a WD preview on the GW community site with details on Carnifexes being split into multiple unit types; Sceamer-Killers and Thornbacks

It also confirms that all the different head/bio-morph options in the Carnifex kit 'now have an effect in games once again'. Specifically mentioned are:

• Enhanced senses 
• Tusks
• Monstrous acid maw
• Chitin thorns
• Spine bank
• Spore cysts

It's hard to read the image, but there are 2 new special rules on the datasheet in addition to the current one. Living Battering Ram also looks like it has an additional line after "suffers a mortal wound".
 

 

 

UPDATE 03.11.2017

Leaked datasheets from a twitch stream

 

https://imgur.com/a/0S7OG

https://imgur.com/a/0S7OG

Edited November 3, 2017 by Xenith

[BrassClaw]

OOooh I was wondering when there was going to be some speculation on this I guess you just beat me to the punch Xenith on posting a thread.

 

I guess one way to make Hive Fleets into like Chapters is to give army wide buffs like:

• +1" Synapse range
• +1" to Movement
• +1 Attack

Another way is to give particular units buffs like:

• All models with the Monster Keyword regenerate per turn
• All models with the Fly Keyword gain 3" to movement
• All models with the Genestealer keyword can deploy anywhere on the battlefield as long as there at least 9" away from the enemy 

You could also make Hive Fleet with there own psychic powers, this idea is a bit less likely but i think it would be more interesting that "Bio relics" that previous codexes have had. 

[Xenith]

All good ideas!

 

From what we've seen with the other tactics, I don't think they will be limited to a unit with particular keyword, such as fly, or monster.

 

Unless they did one for infantry and one for monsters?

The +1 attack might be too powerful on gaunts, but works for big bugs.

 

Maybe Behemoth would be regenerate? OOE was from that fleet right?

[BrassClaw]

All good ideas!

 

From what we've seen with the other tactics, I don't think they will be limited to a unit with particular keyword, such as fly, or monster.

 

Unless they did one for infantry and one for monsters?

The +1 attack might be too powerful on gaunts, but works for big bugs.

 

Maybe Behemoth would be regenerate? OOE was from that fleet right?

Correct, OOE was/is from Behemoth

 

Another thing to consider is Stratagems and Command Points. You could have something like this:

• Hive Fleet Behemoth gains a command point for every Carnifex brood
• Hive Fleet Kraken gains a command point for every Zoanthrope brood
• Hive Fleet Naga gains a command point for every Ravener Brood

[Reigart]

After seeing some of the Space Marine and Heretic Marine Stratagems (from YouTube videos doing reviews), I'd hope from some utility ones, such as 1 CP for a unit (or so) that would normally act on instinctive behavior can act as though it was in synapse.  Something like that could be nice as a bridge during a temporary synapse loss.

 

I'm also hoping that with the tyranids get some extra units or improvements from ingesting some primaris marines.

[graceslick]

Hive Fleet Hydra- +1 strenght to all monsters as theyve become big and fat from eating up the other nid fleets.

[Xenith]

Haha, that hydra one could be interesting!

 

I expect we'll get the seemingly standard:

 

3CP: one unit may fight again this phase

 

I also expect a copy of the chaos cultist strategies:

 

2CP: remove a unit of horms or terms from the table. You may replace them at the units starting strength anywhere within 6" of a table edge and more than 9" from the enemy.

[Xenith]

So based on the leaks/rumours that all internal faction special rules might be quite similar, like raven guard, alpha legion and house Metallica getting -1 to hit from 12" away, IW, IH, and mars getting FNP6+, I think it's likely we'll see the same for nids.

 

With that in mind:

 

Behemoth: ignores lost wound on a 6+

 

Jormungandr: -1 to hit from over 12" away, CP to infiltrate

 

Hydra: fall back and shoot, +1 LD.

 

Kraken: may advance and shoot/assault, or +2 to advance distance.

 

Moloch?

 

Thoughts?

[our_baz]

My 10c. Behemoth was single almost never ending tide of nids. So Why not destroyed units can return on a 5+.

Kraken attacked on multiple fronts simultaneously. During deployment you set up certain units on table edges not in your deployment zones (similar to GSC Encircling the Foes ambush rule).

Leviathan attacked from below the galactic plane (I.e. where it was least expected). So deep striking units can move after arriving.

Don't know too much about the other hive fleets I'll leave that to better minds than me

[dwez]

As someone who players a splinter of Hive Fleet Gorgon I'd be thinking some sort of continuous evolution rule similar to the Ymgarl Factor - pay Command Points to mutate units between increased move, increased attacks, or increased toughness/save/FnP benefit. So speed, offence, survivability, but different each time it's used.

Edited September 14, 2017 by dwez

[Malakithe]

New codex in a few weeks so we all know what that means...leaks are coming!

[Xenith]

Updated the OP with the delicious, delicious leaks.

 

Hive tyrants get +2W, +1T, 4++ for 20pts less? Yes please.

[Sabadin]

OOE being 9W, no degradation chart, and screenable now,/insert

maniacal laughter.

[BrassClaw]

So I'm liking the hive fleet adaptations. My hive fleet runs a lot Warriors and Carnifexes. So a few adaptations I really like are:

 

Leviathan: Giving your synapse bugs and other friendlies within 6"  feel no pain +6 seems pretty good in my books. I have a lot of synapse bugs that would benefit from this boon.

Jormungander: Always having cover from shooting as long as you don't advance, charge have fly, seems really good for my style. I like the idea of 2+ save carnifexes and 3+ save warriors

Kronos: Re-roll 1 in shooting if you didn't move. Again, I typically field more shooty bugs and assault bugs, so that's why I like this one.

Edited November 3, 2017 by BrassClaw

[Xenith]

From what I've seen so far, I cannot help but buy a ticket for the hype train.

 

I'm thinking the codex will be balanced, not overpowered, but will make some units useful again. The very fact that brainleach devourers are back to assault 6 shows that GW has fixed issues. The relic deathspitters, a pair, are also assault 6, meaning a pair of brainleaches will be assault 12 again (happy dance).

 

The fact that I'm really undecided as to which is the best hive fleet adaptation is a good sign. All (but Kronos) are appealing. I just cant see nids standing still. If it was reroll all misses when still, and reroll ones to hit when moving, then maybe.

 

I think Venom cannons are now a straight damage 3, which is great.

 

EDIT:

 

Changed formatting of leak dump to make it semi legible.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Xenith

[Sabadin]

Kronos really feels like it was designed to be a small detachment with your WL and a gunline in it, while the mobile part of your force is a different detachment and adaptation.

 

And the way synapse interacts with mixed fleets creates interesting shenanigans like taking biovores out of synapse, firing them at units with other to hit modifiers on them, and auto missing to start flooding the board with spore mines.

[ChromeZephyr]

All of those stratagems make me giddy.  I can see uses for almost all of them, and it will be pretty easy to build a battalion plus an additional +1CP detachment.  There's numbers being bandied about elsewhere about ~700 point brigades but I can't see using them, just feels too cheesy.  I'm not a tournament player though, so take that for what you will.

 

I legitimately cannot decide between Behemoth or Gorgon for my splinter fleet to hail from.  Think I'll need to get in a couple of games of each with some friends before I decide.

 

The 11th cannot come soon enough.

[Xenith]

Don't worry about feeling cheesy, the 700pts brigade will be balanced in that you'll have a bunch of small units and haemorrhage kill points, and each unit will have low damage output.

 

I guess it would be something like:

2*neurothrope

3*3 rippers

3*3 spore mines

3*3 lictors

3*3 biovores

 

Old points that comes to 600 or so. Maybe I'm forgetting what you need in a brigade.

[ChromeZephyr]

You're missing a third Neurothrope and 3 more sets of Rippers, but that's the gist of it. It still feels like gaming the system to me.

[Xenith]

The entire army building stage involves getting the most army for the least points!

 

You'd have to double this to get to 1500, and even then it wouldn't be a good army

[Xenith]

The feeder tendrils strategem looks great, and suits my lictors.

 

Basically a 66% chance for free CP's if you manage to kill a character, as you spend one, and always get at least one back.

[ChromeZephyr]

 

The entire army building stage involves getting the most army for the least points!

 

I don't agree with this, honestly.  I've always just built my lists with an eye towards my armies' fluff and what I think will be fun. 

 

 

 

You'd have to double this to get to 1500, and even then it wouldn't be a good army

 

It's less about doubling it to get to 1500 and more about using it as a base of 12+ CPs and then just spamming whatever on top of it. Tournaments in my area are run at 2k, so you can get a lot of  "oomph" in those ~1300 points to use along with all of those stratagems and rerolls. 

[Aothaine]

If you are playing for fun you are good to go. But competitively that brigade is going to net you 9 command points and you still have plenty of points to bring the big gribblies and gaunt swarms. It also allows you to have significant pressure on multiple targets from the psychic phases, the assassin lictors, rippers to hold objectives or tie up shooting units.... nothing in that brigade will be useless. It is amazing that they can field a brigade for so few points.

[BrassClaw]

I pre-order my codex today!

 

I'm really excited for this codex, Nov 11 need to come sooner