Assault-focus list with SftS - 1500pts

[Alcyon]

There's not a ton of action in the Army List Reviews forum so I hope it's ok to post this here. This is what I'm planning for my RG in 8th edition; big focus on using Thunderhammers as A/T and supporting my assaults as much as possible.

 

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [53 PL, 784pts] ++

 

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 172pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 6) Null Zone, Force stave, Storm shield, The Shield Eternal

 

+ Elites +

 

Cataphractii Terminator Squad [12 PL, 218pts]

Cataphractii Sergeant: Grenade harness, Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 197pts]: Jump Pack

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 197pts]: Jump Pack

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [48 PL, 714pts] ++

 

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain [6 PL, 102pts]: Jump Pack, Power fist

 

Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

4x Scout w/Shotgun

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

4x Scout w/Shotgun

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

4x Scout w/Shotgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 297pts]: Plasma incinerator

8x Hellblaster

Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

My logic is that Vanguards with LCs can't take an invulnerable save, which are pretty key this edition, so I've kept the LCs to the Cataphractii. I'm also running shotguns on the Scouts as BP+CCW is basically giving them 3 attacks (one pistol shot + 2 normal) and shotguns do the same (2 shotgun, 1 normal) but within 6" they are S5.

 

The plan is for them and the Hellblasters to use SftS to move into cover in the midfield, and for the Scouts to infiltrate into cover around them to absorb enemy charges or tie up enemies that get too close. Shrike will DS with the Hellblasters for the re-rolls, Librarian with the Terminators while the Chaplain and Vanguards run up the board using cover to support/countercharge.

 

Things I'm worried about:

• The scout squads may be too small to be useful. I didn't want to make them 10x because I think it'll be hard to get them into cover. I could go back to using 3x5 Snipers but they wouldn't be able to screen the Hellblasters.
• The Thunderhammer Veterans may not make it into combat easily if people bubblewrap.
• Terminators might get overwhelmed by blobs; they can only do about 13-14.5 wounds to T3 per turn even if you include a Grenade Harness.

Thoughts?

[Mr. Poe]

I'd be worried that once my Hellblaster squad is gone, my only real firepower is gone. You may be able to screen them with scouts but they can still be shot. 

 

I haven't played any games with non-sniper+cloak scouts but in my experience a 4+ save gets blown away by a light breeze. But, I do get how you plan to use them and that may very well be their objective. 

 

I'm not sure how well the list will do and you will probably face an uphill battle vs list on the extreme ends of the spectrum i.e. lots of armor or lots of bodies. But that's the challenge most assault oriented space marines list have to deal with.

[Cordova]

I like the idea of the Terminators as your LC carriers, I hadn't thought of using them in that function.

 

I agree with Mr Poe, that once you lose the Hellblasters your range damage is limited.

 

Part of me would want to SftS with the Termies to make sure that they get in. That would also put the pressure on the opponent whilst the VV move up.

[Race Bannon]

Terminators with LC = :tu:

[Alcyon]

Thanks for the input, guys. I made some edits to the list to address a lack of firepower and objective holding ability. Here it is:

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [42 PL, 707pts] ++

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]

 

+ Elites +

 

Cataphractii Terminator Squad [12 PL, 218pts]

Cataphractii Sergeant: Grenade harness, Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)

 

Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 144pts]

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun

Veteran Sergeant: Special issue boltgun

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 195pts]: Jump Pack

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Veteran Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [45 PL, 793pts] ++

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Power sword, The Burning Blade

 

Chaplain [6 PL, 102pts]: Jump Pack, Power fist

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 83pts]: 5x Camo cloak

Scout Sergeant: Grav-pistol, Power axe

4x Scout w/Shotgun

 

Scout Squad [6 PL, 81pts]: 5x Camo cloak

Scout Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

4x Scout w/Shotgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma incinerator

9x Hellblaster

Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

I'm concerned that Librarians just aren't that good in this edition if you play C:SM; their abilities don't seem amazing (Null Zone is ok) and they have no aura buff. This version trades him for a Captain with JP, swaps a Scout Squad for some Intercessors, one Vanguard squad for some Sternguard and fills out the Scouts with some special weapons (leftover from the VV kit) and gets the Hellblasters up to 10 guys. There's an argument I should split that unit into two 5s but it'd use more SftS points.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Why are you running a vanguard and a battalion?!  Seems like you are paying a tax on 1 HQ you dont need to pay.  

 

Just run one battalion and save yourself 100 points.  

 

List would be ...

 

Battalion 3cp

 

HQs 

Shrike

Captain

 

Troops

Scouts x 2

Interwhatevers

 

Elites

Termies

Vanguard

Sternguard

 

Heavy Support

Hellspammers

 

This looks better since you save 100 points at the cost of only 1 CP.  What do you want to spend that 100 points on?  5 more intercessors maybe?  A rhino for the sternguard?  More scouts?  An apothecary for your hellblasters?  

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I like the Sternguard in the second iteration, I would say some form of transport to get them into rapid fire range ASAP is the best choice. Apothecary for the hellblasters seems good on paper, but I think you would need to burn another CP to SFTS him so he can deploy alongside the hellblasters as well, and that seems...inefficient. 

[Race Bannon]

I agree.  The more I ponder it, the more I'm keeping Sternguard with their bolters.

[Alcyon]

The plan was to SftS the Sternguard onto an objective into rapid fire range. However, I did some math on 10 Sternguard the other day, and they basically can't wipe out a GEQ 10-man squad without a Captain or Lieutenant. And vs. MEQ, they deal about 8 wounds, wouldn't quite kill a full 10-man squad. With split fire they could decimate two MSU squads but I would be concerned about an MSU list running a ton of Razorbacks I couldn't easily crack. So I'm now looking at Aggressors again in that slot.

 

@SanguinaryGuardsmen Shrike and the Chaplain are great but I have 3-4 units that really benefit from the buffs, and they won't always be close together. With the amount of CP you can use with SftS, re-rolling charges, and buffing a unit like Sternguard with their unique Stratagem, I think more CP is really good. 

 

I don't have all my notes here on my lunch break, but I'm pretty on the fence about Troops at all right now. Tacticals and Intercessors in 5-man units that can use cover well are just not very effective in terms of damage output, and I don't want to spam Razorbacks. Scouts are better because they have built-in first turn mobility and more weapon options, but with 5-man squads they are still really weak at damage output, cloaks are pretty expensive, and you don't know what objectives you'll want first turn. I do like the idea of being able to screen the Hellblasters but I worry I won't be able to get the Scouts into cover if they're doing that job; might just be better off leaving it to the Terminators.

 

So I think it's either 3x squads of Scout Snipers (they can do enough damage with 15 of them to be worth it, and it's a good vehicle for a HB and Missile Launcher to make use of those sources of D3 Mortal Wounds vs. ground units or flier stratagems) or I'll just run a Vanguard (Aggressors, Vanguards, Terminators) and a Spearhead with 3x5man units of Hellblasters. It's not a very balanced or especially fluffy list but I think it might be competitive.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think the Vanguard / Spearhead is a decent idea, but I think you may run into issues in Maelstrom games scoring points effectively. That sort of list will have 1-2 units of Vanguard, so very little mobility, and also no access to units with Defenders of Humanity, so against any sort of army with bodies I imagine you'll rarely get to Control Objective X.

 

As for the troops situation, I agree. I think for us there are 3 options (that I like anyway):

 

Scouts: Snipers, large blocks (I like 10-Man units with all Snipers and Camo, but I can see the argument of slipping in a heavy bolter for an extra 6 points to make effective use of the hellfire stratagem now)

 

Tacticals: I like 5-man min squads, with either just bolters, or Flamer/Combi-Flamer, and throw multiple units into a Rhino or Stormraven, so you can drive around the table and poop out troops to take objectives.

 

Intercessors: Depending on your overall list mobility, I think 10-Man squads of these and deployed using SFTS, could be quite strong, and I want to explore this further.

 

In general I like using bigger squads with Raven Guard to try to ensure you get first turn. I don't think the army plays as well going the MSU route. However, if you build into as many 10-man squads as you can, you can always make use of Combat Squads if/when you decide you WONT get first turn, and transform into MSU.

 

Also, I agree fully on Aggressors, I need to buy 2 boxes of them.

[Alcyon]

That's my main concern too, is not being able to claim objectives due to a lack of mobility and DoH. Thankfully I think most armies with bodies either have a lack of mobility (AM w/ Conscripts) or aren't really into objectives anyways (Ork Boys, Hormagaunts). 

 

I agree too about the larger squad sizes but I worry about their ability to get into cover. Maybe it matters less now with cover only counting if you are "on it", not just behind a wall that doesn't block LoS completely... Or actually maybe it matters more, I dunno.

 

Of the options you listed I think the Scouts are the only choice I'd really run with - none of them have enough damage output to be a serious threat, and so 99% of their role is just to sit on an objective and potentially reposition if needed, so you might as well run the hardiest and cheapest unit available (though Snipers might still be worth it if you run 15 in 3 squads.) Scouts save you a CP from SftS as well and with the -1 to hit and how un-intimidating they are, hopefully your opponent will be both unable and unwilling to focus fire them.

 

It's not quite MSU since the goal is to basically play as few as possible, and since you aren't running RBs or special weapons it saves you points to invest in units that have more punch and make better use of our CT & stratagem. I think an army like Salamanders does a lot better with MSU Tacticals given how it maximizes their singleton Special/Heavy weapons per squad, or IH who get that Relentless stratagem for their RBs.

[Alcyon]

I'm not quite sure how the reserves rules work with deployment. Say we are alternating deploying units, my plan would be: 

1. Shrike (Reserve)
2. Captain (Reserve)
3. Aggressors (SftS)
4. Hellblasters (SftS)
5. 3x Scout Squads (Infiltrate)
6. Vanguards (SftS or Reserve)
7. Terminators (SftS or Reserve)

However it sounds like you simply don't deploy any units you place in reserve, right? But when do you declare whether a unit is in reserve, do you take turns or just announce them all at once?

 

I think SftS counts as a regular deployment, so I should be ok with 3 Scout Squads plus at least 2 SftS units, right, and 5 units should help guarantee 1st turn.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I'm not quite sure how the reserves rules work with deployment. Say we are alternating deploying units, my plan would be: 

1. Shrike (Reserve)
2. Captain (Reserve)
3. Aggressors (SftS)
4. Hellblasters (SftS)
5. 3x Scout Squads (Infiltrate)
6. Vanguards (SftS or Reserve)
7. Terminators (SftS or Reserve)

However it sounds like you simply don't deploy any units you place in reserve, right? But when do you declare whether a unit is in reserve, do you take turns or just announce them all at once?

 

I think SftS counts as a regular deployment, so I should be ok with 3 Scout Squads plus at least 2 SftS units, right, and 5 units should help guarantee 1st turn.

 

I have been wondering the details of this as well. I'm going to write out the rules citations necessary, because I am unsure of the interaction between Reserve, SFTS, and "Drops".

 

Matched Play Mission Rules-> Tactical Reserves says:

 

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

 

Also, it helps to review both Combat Squads and Strike From The Shadows

 

Strike From The Shadows

 

Use this Stratagem when you can set up a Raven Guard Infantry unit during deployment. You can set up the unit in the shadows instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from their hiding place - set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

 

Combat Squads

 

Before any models are deployed at the start of the game, a Tactical Squad containing 10 models may be split into two units, each containing 5 models.

 

Also, I think its worth evaluating Transport Vehicles as well, since it fits the topic,

 

Transports (3rd Paragraph, under Transport Capacity, Page 183)

 

When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.

 

 

 

and...

 

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

 

 

 

 

 

My interpretation of the above is the following:

 

1) You look at your total units in your army, and divide by 2, rounded up. That is how many units need to be placed on the battlefield DURING the deployment phase. Since SFTS doesn't actually deploy those units until after deployment, at the start of the first battle round, to me that means they count as "Tactical Reserves" to me.

 

2) When you deploy units in a transport, each unit counts towards your requirement for Tactical Reserves, but it only counts as one "drop" for the purposes of who gets first turn (per the mission rules)

 

3) Combat squads wording is slightly ambiguous to me. Breaking into combat squads happens "before any models are deployed", but it doesn't suggest a timing requirement in respect of of determining total unit count for the purposes of Tactical Reserves. I think RAI is that if you split em, they count as two, both for your total, and for your drops, so its a net gain of zero. 

 

That being said, its quite feasible to have a Raven Guard army with 2-3 "drops" be virtually guaranteed to get first turn, and still have 6-8 units using SFTS, with you only having 2 transports on the table to start the first battle round.

 

Something like

 

Battalion:

 

HQ x 2

 

2 x 5 Man Tactical Squad

1 x 10 Man Scout Snipers

 

1 x Dreadnought (any variety)

 

Stormraven

 

Insert your heavy hitting elite/fast/heavy units to get you up to your points total

 

You end up deploying (as an example) both 5 Man Tacticals, both HQs, and the dread in the transport along with the Scouts on the table = 2 drops, almost guaranteed first turn. But for total units (for the purposes of Tactical Reserves) with that makeup you could SFTS/Tactical Reserve up to 7 units.

 

*edit* I realize after writing this that I am an idiot and you still "deploy" the units into Tactical Reserve, whether they are SFTS or something else (Deepstrike), and that none of this circumvents lowering your unit count to get towards first turn, but the transport bit is still valid to lowering your "drop count"

Edited August 4, 2017 by ltvyper

[Alcyon]

I agree with everything you said. Listening to The Long War podcast today, it sounds like "deploying" units into Tactical Reserve is currently a bit of a broken hack as it lets you force an opponent with fewer Reserves into deploying models first. You can "deploy" all your Tactical Reserves and only then begin to lay models down, though you likely want to keep your SftS units till last as their effectiveness will be largely based on the position of your opponents' units. 

 

This presents an issue for this list as I only technically have 3 units firmly deployed turn 1; the three Scout Squads. I have 9 units so I'd need to deploy at least two more units on the table during deployment, and unfortunately nothing really has very long range. I guess the Vanguards are pretty survivable and can sit in cover, plus it's unlikely the enemy can get most of their good anti-infantry or mortal wound spam weapons in range turn 1, so I could deploy them. And I'll just have to hope the Hellblasters can get within 30" or so of a target, or put Shrike on the field with the Vanguards and hope they can make it up the board fast enough (13-18" advance) to support the Hellblasters or Aggressors. 

 

That also leads to an argument that I should run more of a gunline with Dreadnoughts and Devastators which would set up on the table, and maybe that'd help me crack some transports before my assault elements get close anyway. On the other hand, maybe I should cut the Terminators so I don't have to put so many things in Reserve (as their lack of mobility makes them really dependent on it.)

 

Overall I am a bit skeptical of the value of turn 1 alpha strike approaches even though our stratagem makes us among the best suited to it; if things go towards the ITC and a +1 to your 1st turn re-roll vs. automatic go first + seize, or if people bring enough bubblewrap and strategies to rebuff a 1st turn charge, my small expensive CC units will melt quickly.

[Mr. Poe]

This is a very good discussion and I've been pondering a lot of the very things being debated here when throwing together list the last few weeks. 

 

I find it difficult to come up with an assault focused list that isn't too reliant on going first and taking advantage of SFTS. And even on the occasion when I do have 1st turn the 15 or so VV's I can deploy with SFTS doesn't pose as much of a threat as I would like. Specially against armies that can deploy very effective bubble wraps. 

 

I've had a bit more luck holding back my assault units and using them when an opportunity opens for them to engage units that they will be the most effective against. Some lists I've experimented with are 15 VV's, 20 sniper scouts, Shrike, Lieutenants, 3-5 Landspeeders (AC+HB or TML) with different variations of a Sternguard squad (I'm conflicted as how best to equipped these guys).  

 

On tables with lots of cover, the cloak and sniper scouts are difficult to shift and they can deal out a lot of damage with Shrike and a Lieutenant nearby. The Landspeeders I've had mixed results with; I have a bunch of them so I've been trying everything I possibly can to get some use for them. I don't squadron them to force opponents to fire at separate targets but they melt under dedicated heavy weapons fire. So these units form a "gunline" of sorts while the Vanguards stay in DS reserve or out of LOS. I've had some success but I also don't play in a very strong meta, more fluff than muscle if you know what I mean.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I just thought of something neat with SFTS.  You can take bigass 10 man squads and spend 1 cp to get them close.  Then use tactical flexibility for 1 cp in your first movement phase and have 2 units capable of charging.  It costs the same as using SFTS twice but you have 1 less deployment drop.  

[Alcyon]

I just thought of something neat with SFTS.  You can take bigass 10 man squads and spend 1 cp to get them close.  Then use tactical flexibility for 1 cp in your first movement phase and have 2 units capable of charging.  It costs the same as using SFTS twice but you have 1 less deployment drop.  

This guy. Nice.

[Darkthorns]

I have a question because I'm also building a 1500pt list. My enemy is playing iron warriors with 2 hell brutes, a flying daemon prince, a vindicator,2 squads of csm, termies, 2 squads of cultists, along with chaos lord and sorcerer both in termy armour. Any advice?

[Alcyon]

It's hard to give any advice without knowing things like what's in your list, what models you have available, etc. I think the original list I posted might do OK against that, you have flying Thunder Hammers against the DP that are also good vs. the Hellbrutes, Plasma vs. the Termies and Vindicator, and some LCs against everything else.

[Gulltramarine]

I have a question because I'm also building a 1500pt list. My enemy is playing iron warriors with 2 hell brutes, a flying daemon prince, a vindicator,2 squads of csm, termies, 2 squads of cultists, along with chaos lord and sorcerer both in termy armour. Any advice?

 

Doesn't seem like an especially strong list, is there anything there you've struggled with before?