IS this some kind of joke?

[Aegir_Einarsson]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/31/legion-focus-emperors-children/

 

 

look at the legion trait and special psyhic power.... and stratagem.... arghhhh. Always fight first,,,, great....

 

Same Iron warriors exoskeleton... . And tzeentch

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/01/legion-focus-iron-warriors-aug-1gw-homepage-post-2/

 

Am I only one who thinks that they some better options than we have?

[Noctus Cornix]

Art thou perturbed, Imperial lapdog?   

[bolvar]

Nothing of that will save them from our wrath

[Drac0]

Iron warriors one is not that bad, people don't normally use buildings and we have access to similar buffs. The exoskeleton thing is nice but its not army wide so eventually a way will be found to deal with that. *cleanse it with fire!!!!!*

 

Cold and bitter is just fluffy as heck, they are psycho siege warriors, makes sense. *everyone knows they'll run crying to daddy when they see the sons of Dorn against them*

 

Tzeentch inv save bonus is nothing new

 

As for the Spoiled "S&M" Brats legion, meh, if you have charged on that turn you are still fighting first, so meh. They'll still get pwnd.

*Remember which legion had the best swordsman, that held the walls of the imperial palace and was the first High Marshal*

 

To sum it all up, at least when they lose they won't be able to blame it on being the underdog.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Drac0

[Firepower]

Can't say I see much reason to be bothered by this.  Chaos has had lousy stuff for generations.  A decent trait or two isn't anything to wet the bed over.

 

Although I am worried what World Eaters will get.  Berzerkers are already very nasty melee units.  Without a point cost a few notches higher than a basic Marine, that would be...troublesome.

 

But either way, we have a lot of toys that they don't.  There's no reason that C:SM should have all the best stuff in every regard, especially in regards to Chaos Legions which, aside from being Marines themselves, have a whole lot more experience under their belts in general than loyalist Marines after spending so long in the Eye.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Firepower

[Minsc]

So you're complaining about;
a IW relic (which IW had in 7th), and which is very similar to Armour Indomitus.
A EC legion tactic, which essentially gives back the +Ini from Mark of Slaanesh.
And a psychic power that essentially gives back the old +1 Iv from Mark of Tzeentch.

Yes, this thread may be a joke, but I'm not exactly falling off my chair in laughter. :/

Also, I can find you several CSM-players who are convinced without any doubt that CSM got the shorter end of the stick compared to SM. Ain't it funny how the internet works. ;)

[Honda]

MOD VOICE: First off, let's dial down the tone, on both sides. That isn't how a discussion is conducted. Attacking someone because they have an opinion also won't score you any points, unless your goal is to get Warning Points.

 

Whether you like a new CT or Stratagem, or Relic, especially for another army is irrelevant. It's also pointless. "You" aren't going to like everything that occurs in the game, especially as everything is changing so significantly.

 

As new codexes and the rumors of what's in those codexes roll out, we are not going to tolerate waves of rage regarding what may or may not be real.

 

We "can" discuss how to deal with said changes in a discussion.

 

That's what Templars do.

[Kizzdougs]

Iron warriors one is not that bad, people don't normally use buildings and we have access to similar buffs. The exoskeleton thing is nice but its not army wide so eventually a way will be found to deal with that. *cleanse it with fire!!!!!*

 

Cold and bitter is just fluffy as heck, they are psycho siege warriors, makes sense. *everyone knows they'll run crying to daddy when they see the sons of Dorn against them*

 

Tzeentch inv save bonus is nothing new

 

As for the Spoiled "S&M" Brats legion, meh, if you have charged on that turn you are still fighting first, so meh. They'll still get pwnd.

*Remember which legion had the best swordsman, that held the walls of the imperial palace and was the first High Marshal*

 

To sum it all up, at least when they lose they won't be able to blame it on being the underdog.

The Emperor's Children can still strike before charging units.

 

The rule says:

"Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is taking place."

 

So if you charge the Emperor's Children then you get to choose the first unit to fight with (because it is your turn), but after that it alternates for any other units that have charged, and finally, the Emperor's Children get to fight first in any ongoing combats.

[Firepower]

As noted before, it's really not much different from their increased Initiative from the previous editions.  It's nothing new under the sun, just the same old stuff adapted to a new rule set.  I'll take charging that over fighting some lunatic axe swinging nutters who can attack 3 times in a single Fight phase.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Firepower

[Marshal_Roujakis]

The Iron Warriors are just the exact same as the Fist... I wouldn't cry over it, unless they get access to Primaris Bolters and such...

 

The psychic powers, both of them, can be nullified is you get close to the psyker with our strategem... and we always want to get close anyway...

so do their psychic test, and roll a 4+ to see that... nothing happens :p

 

And healing 1 wound wouldn't matter much if your Daemon Prince died in the previous combat phase... Emperor's Champion anyone? just play hard and try to get him in that daemon prince's face...

 

And the part where they hit first... just get the charge out first... sure it's deadly if you get stuck with units with AP weapons, but it won't matter much if they die during the first round of combat, so hit them with something hard like Terminators or Vanguard, or a Dreadnought and you don't need to worry getting hit first...

 

Nothing much to worry about, unlike the smurfs which regenerate a CP every turn... :\

[Drac0]

 

Iron warriors one is not that bad, people don't normally use buildings and we have access to similar buffs. The exoskeleton thing is nice but its not army wide so eventually a way will be found to deal with that. *cleanse it with fire!!!!!*

 

Cold and bitter is just fluffy as heck, they are psycho siege warriors, makes sense. *everyone knows they'll run crying to daddy when they see the sons of Dorn against them*

 

Tzeentch inv save bonus is nothing new

 

As for the Spoiled "S&M" Brats legion, meh, if you have charged on that turn you are still fighting first, so meh. They'll still get pwnd.

*Remember which legion had the best swordsman, that held the walls of the imperial palace and was the first High Marshal*

 

To sum it all up, at least when they lose they won't be able to blame it on being the underdog.

The Emperor's Children can still strike before charging units.

 

The rule says:

"Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is taking place."

 

So if you charge the Emperor's Children then you get to choose the first unit to fight with (because it is your turn), but after that it alternates for any other units that have charged, and finally, the Emperor's Children get to fight first in any ongoing combats.

 

Exactly. Can one charge on the opponent turn? Well, as far as I can tell no, so as written you charge, you go first. The bonus will only apply on the turns you didn't charge, which one can work around, like Marshal_Roujakis pointed out by beating the living daemons out of them on the charge.

 

On a side note, I haven't had a proper look at the chaos index, but...aren't the pink kids trademark troop equiped mainly with sonic weapons?

I know they can gear some units to CC, but not to the same degree as World Eaters.

I'm with Firepower on this one, it would be way worse if Bezerkers had this rule.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Drac0

[Kizzdougs]

 

 

Iron warriors one is not that bad, people don't normally use buildings and we have access to similar buffs. The exoskeleton thing is nice but its not army wide so eventually a way will be found to deal with that. *cleanse it with fire!!!!!*

 

Cold and bitter is just fluffy as heck, they are psycho siege warriors, makes sense. *everyone knows they'll run crying to daddy when they see the sons of Dorn against them*

 

Tzeentch inv save bonus is nothing new

 

As for the Spoiled "S&M" Brats legion, meh, if you have charged on that turn you are still fighting first, so meh. They'll still get pwnd.

*Remember which legion had the best swordsman, that held the walls of the imperial palace and was the first High Marshal*

 

To sum it all up, at least when they lose they won't be able to blame it on being the underdog.

The Emperor's Children can still strike before charging units.

 

The rule says:

"Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is taking place."

 

So if you charge the Emperor's Children then you get to choose the first unit to fight with (because it is your turn), but after that it alternates for any other units that have charged, and finally, the Emperor's Children get to fight first in any ongoing combats.

 

Exactly. Can one charge on the opponent turn? Well, as far as I can tell no, so as written you charge, you go first. The bonus will only apply on the turns you didn't charge, which one can work around, like Marshal_Roujakis pointed out by beating the living daemons out of them on the charge.

 

On a side note, I haven't had a proper look at the chaos index, but...aren't the pink kids trademark troop equiped mainly with sonic weapons?

I know they can gear some units to CC, but not to the same degree as World Eaters.

I'm with Firepower on this one, it would be way worse if Bezerkers had this rule.

 

Did you miss the part about "alternate choosing units to fight with"?

If you charge with multiple units you get to choose one of those units to fight first (because the player who's turn it is always chooses the first unit to fight with), then the Emperor's Children player can choose a unit to fight with (even before your other units that charged this turn), then you choose the next unit to fight with etc. It alternates until all of the charging units have fought, then in any ongoing combats the Emperor's Children fight first.

[Kisada]

IW legion tactic is exactly the same as IF chapter tactic ... which was quite often ranked as one of the worst the Space Marines got ...

 

As Firepower said ... the World Eaters is going to be interesting.

[Firepower]

Yes..."interesting." 

[Lysere]

If you charge with a bunch of units you have to deal with the alternating, but it still means almost nothing.

 

You'll always start of with the most important unit that needs to do as much damage as possible so the legion bonus does nothing there. Now they go, but you just used your main assault unit and everything else you probably charged were things like noise marines or havocs or whatever other non melee units they have. Now they might get a wound or two through but since you've already used your best unit and everything has extra bodies to take wounds they're still not doing all that great.

 

The only part of their rule that will matter is the whole going first in ongoing combat thing. Something you can interrupt if they charge with something and activate it.

 

Besides they still have to get into combat, something they don't have any bonus for.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Lysere

[Drac0]

 

 

 

Iron warriors one is not that bad, people don't normally use buildings and we have access to similar buffs. The exoskeleton thing is nice but its not army wide so eventually a way will be found to deal with that. *cleanse it with fire!!!!!*

 

Cold and bitter is just fluffy as heck, they are psycho siege warriors, makes sense. *everyone knows they'll run crying to daddy when they see the sons of Dorn against them*

 

Tzeentch inv save bonus is nothing new

 

As for the Spoiled "S&M" Brats legion, meh, if you have charged on that turn you are still fighting first, so meh. They'll still get pwnd.

*Remember which legion had the best swordsman, that held the walls of the imperial palace and was the first High Marshal*

 

To sum it all up, at least when they lose they won't be able to blame it on being the underdog.

The Emperor's Children can still strike before charging units.

 

The rule says:

"Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is taking place."

 

So if you charge the Emperor's Children then you get to choose the first unit to fight with (because it is your turn), but after that it alternates for any other units that have charged, and finally, the Emperor's Children get to fight first in any ongoing combats.

 

Exactly. Can one charge on the opponent turn? Well, as far as I can tell no, so as written you charge, you go first. The bonus will only apply on the turns you didn't charge, which one can work around, like Marshal_Roujakis pointed out by beating the living daemons out of them on the charge.

 

On a side note, I haven't had a proper look at the chaos index, but...aren't the pink kids trademark troop equiped mainly with sonic weapons?

I know they can gear some units to CC, but not to the same degree as World Eaters.

I'm with Firepower on this one, it would be way worse if Bezerkers had this rule.

 

Did you miss the part about "alternate choosing units to fight with"?

If you charge with multiple units you get to choose one of those units to fight first (because the player who's turn it is always chooses the first unit to fight with), then the Emperor's Children player can choose a unit to fight with (even before your other units that charged this turn), then you choose the next unit to fight with etc. It alternates until all of the charging units have fought, then in any ongoing combats the Emperor's Children fight first.

 

No, I didn't miss it.

 

And not really that badm could be worse, they could fight first 100% of the time.

Just make sure you pick the right fights and swing first where it matters the most.

[Ebon Hand]

I'm expecting to see Emperor's Children go a little more close combat heavy while still mixing in some good close range shooting with Sonic Weapons. I'd be surprised if they don't have nasty flamer like attacks from Doom Sirens as well as their classic assault Sonic Blasters and heavy Blastmasters.

 

This means fighting them we will have to play smart. Crush units where possible and tie up others. It will be a mess for sure.

 

Night Lords just got teased as well and they look potentially vicious. Battle shock completely ignores armor, and if they stack those leadership mods it can spell trouble. Luckily we have Cenobite Servitors to make that harder for them.

 

Iron Warriors? Failures. Kill them and spit on their corpses.

 

Everyone seems so scared of World Eaters but I'm not. They are predictable. Yeah they can fight multiple times but we can use the counter assault strategem to interrupt them and hurt them before they swing their second or third time. Use a Thunderfire with the tremor shell strategem to neuter their move and charge distance. If anyone can go toe to toe with these guys it's us.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I've played against noise one's and i'm not sure that we made it right but They have some post mortem shooting ability. And there is normal shooting attack, with assault 3 weapon is quite nasty If you kill 5 models you must take 15 shoot's in addition to combat.... If we played it correctly:).

 

That makes cc fight with them nasty thing

[Closet Skeleton]

Chaos Legion tactics go on chaos units, loyalist chapter tactics go on loyalist units. They can't just be compared.

 

Weaver of Fates would be broken in a loyalist army because we have storm shields. Filthy traitor terminators getting +1 to their 5+ invulnerable saves if they pass a test is terrible compared to 5 point storm shields. Mauler Fiends jumping up to 4+ invuns making dedicated anti-tank weapons far less affective against them is just incomparable to anything loyalists have (closet would be contemptor dreadnoughts).

[Banjulhu]

It looks like Khorne units get to buy a banner which lets them reroll charges.

[Firepower]

A Stratagem that costs 3CP allowing one unit to fight again in the Fight phase, a trait that gives +1 Attack on the charge...really not all that scary after all.  They have to buy a banner to do what we do for free.

[Schlitzaf]

Which they pay 10pts for. Guys I am pretty critical of our tactics as much as the next guy. But keep in mind, when comparing us to World Eaters.

 

-------

1) Our Marines are 6-9 Points Cheaper depending if they take Axes and how you want to calculate Neo-Initaite. Thus have fewer models and as such need to hit harder due to less body count. Furthermore I have said this a 101 times, but our Crusader Squads remains the best variant on Tactical Squad. Zerkers are an Assault Squad than a tactical squad, significantly more expensive and far less versatile then our Crusaders

 

2) We are a firefight/melee list vs World Eater Melee List. And tactically we compare better to DeathGaurd or Renegades. We want to attrition our foes out and get in 12" range. To beat a dead horse we can easily get a battalion with our 5 Man MSU Crusader. And from their get reasonable anti-infantry to light tank with our Crusader Blobs

 

3) Why do we want Attacks on charge? Honestly that is the last thing I'd want for our army. Because that forces us into a ChargeAssault. I want a tactic that supports our never surrender, never retreat. Fearless in CC, or something. That aside for Emperor's Children striking first one attack Marines is the same if you were fighting Necrons and they charged. Raise your hand if you are terrified of being charged by Necron Warriors.

 

4) Versatility, our iconic unit is really versatile even running two Tide Blobs I support them with Two Intercessors. Don't fight the enemy fight. Engage them on your terms not theirs. A charging Zerker Squad is no tougher then a 10 Man Tactical Squad. You won't win a fair melee engagement 1v1 vs Zerkers. You don't have to.

 

Don't forget/remember that 10 Man squad is 180 Points pre upgrade. In comparison a 13-14 Man Crusader Squad is gonna run you around 200ish points post upgrade. You put out more pistol shots. You have ablative wounds, they don't. In combat we have on average 1 more power weapon attack than most Squads with Zerkers having equal. Your Init/Neo are ablative wounds for those weapons. Similar to Ork Boyz and Nobz

 

--------

We don't need to fight the WE or EC fight. And we shouldn't try. Don't try to straight fight or Shootout vs Zerkers or Noise respectively. Engage them on terms of our choosing. Widdle those Zerks down then charge, don't shoot Noise, engage in CCW. They have fallback or be slightly better Necrons with no ability to prolong combat. Play to our strengths not theirs.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Is This already on warhammer community i can't see This...

[Firepower]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337238-codex-chaos-space-marines/page-18?do=findComment&comment=4842899

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I really like what you're saying schlitzaf, but man, use that enter key already :P