IS this some kind of joke?

[Schlitzaf]

I blame being on my iPhone when I type/write. But sure I'll try and get better at that

[Crosscheck42]

Well if you didn't feel shafted after the Emperor's Children stuff, you will after you read about the World Eaters. They can negate TWO psykers per round with a relic/strategem combo.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/03/legion-focus-world-eaters-aug-3gw-homepage-post-2/

[Schlitzaf]

And? Our Crusade Helm gives us better buff range our characters and Helbrect has a 6" buff range to Karn 2". Which is just as good if not better imho then being able to deny twice

[balordazul]

BT also has access to almost everything with the keyword Imperuim.  Including Inquisitors now as the codex is excluding Adeptus Astartes Psychers and not everything with the keyword psycher.  We also have access to very strong assassins and SoB to help if needed.  

 

CSM might get some more interesting combos in their individual codex but overall CSM has a smaller range and less units than we do.  Plus they really need a heavy update to their line of models at this point.  

 

The more GW makes all armies and factions better when needed that better for the game overall.  BT is just stuck in a goofy place being part of the SM codex with a codex full mostly of ranged combat focused units and abilities.  Unless they do a mini breakout as a BT sub faction focus or a out of rotation release with new models that have unseen gear we have to deal with what GW's small test group believes we should play like.  

 

Are we up to par to fight as a good CC army this edition?   I don't think so but I love this version of BT so much more than what was given to us in 6th and 7th.    

[Ebon Hand]

Agreed Balordazul, great points. I think CSM vs Space Marines will finally be a mostly even match up that can go either way. They seem to be getting stuff of comparable power with some quirks that make them slightly different. It's nice to see them getting the Space Marine treatment so that they can feel like the legions they are supposed to be.

 

I still think we can take them but if the Chaos Legions retain their hatred imperium ability (basically giving them Grimaldus' extra attack on a 6+ ability vs Imperium) in addition to their legion tactics it's going to be really bloody. That might be what renegades get, but we'll see.

[Crosscheck42]

I guess I'm just disappointed because GW gave me an expectation by saying that we'd be one of the best close combat armies in the game and I don't really see that with what they've done so far. And to combine that with losing exclusivity to our most defining trait to an army that is even better in CC than we are is kind of a bummer. 

I haven't played in games of sufficient size to warrant use of named characters, so my view of their utility is somewhat myopic. It feels like I have to field Grimaldus or Helbrecht just to make my lists viable. They no longer feel like just a fluffy addition. I don't see that as much with the armies I've seen so far. Am I wrong there?

[Schlitzaf]

Our defining trait is our Crusader Squad not our Tactic. And last I checked those are still Templar only

[Crosscheck42]

Our defining trait is our Crusader Squad not our Tactic. And last I checked those are still Templar only

fair enough.

[balordazul]

To add to Schilzaf and reply to Crosscheck42 the Emperor's Champion is the other major BT only element.  Yes we have Helbrecht and Grim but they are just named characters and they do a lot for the Black Templar.  But the Emperor's Champion is cheap enough that he can be included in almost every game you play.  He is not a force multiplier with aura buffs but wonderful close combat hero that can stand toe to toe with almost anyone.  Yes he is not impossible to kill or aggregated to always win but others will attest to his prowess.

 

In larger games try out Helbrecht or Grim either will do you well.  Our three characters do much for us than our trait or stratagem.  You might not be all that impressed with our trait or stratagem and I personally think they are meh but the key is that they are points free.   

[Schlitzaf]

And don't forget our Cenos!

[HenricusTyranicus]

I guess I'm just disappointed because GW gave me an expectation by saying that we'd be one of the best close combat armies in the game and I don't really see that with what they've done so far. And to combine that with losing exclusivity to our most defining trait to an army that is even better in CC than we are is kind of a bummer. 

 

 

To be fair, I think GW more indicated that BT would be best at close combat among Codex Marines. Which I think is true. 

[Ciler]

And on a side note, their 1CP stratagem allows them to deny on a 4+, but also causes the witch a peril of the warp, I'm kinda jealous

 

Edit : I mixed up the relic and the stratagem.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Ciler

[Brother Christopher]

What a great time to be a Templar. In order to balance out our Zeal in the rules and give others a chance, GW is so considerate as to boost them in ways that justifiably are fitting to our nature and used to be included in our rules.

 

We just have to charge and cleanse them first, that all. And we have this amazing charge re-roll that will help us do that!

 

After all the +1A charge bonus isn't too overpowered for a 'Chapter Tactics", as some claimed.

 

By the way, there's nothing to be jealous of - we have access to Primaris and other units which can shoot the chaos out of Chaos Space Marines, so their bonuses to melee are irrelevant... oh... wait.

 

(Indifference is all I feel.)

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Relic is quite decent I think:). The question that I'm thinking of is: all chaos legions do get death to the false emperor or just renegades?

[balordazul]

Relic is quite decent I think:). The question that I'm thinking of is: all chaos legions do get death to the false emperor or just renegades?

It should be all as we get Know No Free that is stronger then the CSM power as the CSM power is conditional.  Also note that GW did not give CSM much in the game conversion of fearless that a number of their units had in the past.  

[Drac0]

Some rumours concerning both GK and chaos, it might give some insight on some of the questions that have poped up

 

https://spikeybits.com/2017/08/rumor-grey-knight-rules.html

 

I must say that, if these rumours are true, chaos is getting a complete face lift and each legion is becoming unique in its own way while following the fluff.

[Ciler]

After all the +1A charge bonus isn't too overpowered for a 'Chapter Tactics", as some claimed.

Well now, let's take a step back. Only units with "butcher's nail" benefit from this, is there many such units ?

 

As a chapter trait, it would have benefited all space marine infantry, so crusader, assault, vanguard... as well as  bikes and dreads.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Charging after advancing is Nice. 6" move 6" advance And 12" charge distance. Nice:)

[Brother Christopher]

 

After all the +1A charge bonus isn't too overpowered for a 'Chapter Tactics", as some claimed.

Well now, let's take a step back. Only units with "butcher's nail" benefit from this, is there many such units ?

 

As a chapter trait, it would have benefited all space marine infantry, so crusader, assault, vanguard... as well as  bikes and dreads.

 

 

Okay, my bad in that regard. I assumed it's an equivalent of a CT and that this is something all World Eaters get.

 

So I checked the article and it says under the Trait:

 

"An additional Attack with every model on the charge is great and means that every unit is going to be pretty deadly on the assault. For heavy units like the Helbrute, that’s another devastating Attack with the Helbrute fist, while across hordes of Chaos Space Marines, those Attacks are going to add up fast."

 

So now I'm confused (but it's been 40* C all day, so that's a factor). They quite explicitly state one thing, the thing I'd quite like to see for a BT force.

[Ebon Hand]

I'm expecting it to be just like chapter traits where it affects infantry bikes and helbrutes. Yeah +1 attack is nice but first they have to get the charge off.

 

Renegades made out pretty well! Charging after advancing is very strong in my experience, especially if they warp time a key unit. Yikes.

[Castellan Doren]

It world eaters look rough on a charge but that's it.

 

We now have the full marine codex of gun options to shoot them into manageable numbers. Just killing three berserkers before melee is enough to lessen your opponents will to use the 3cp fight again, and also greatly reduces the number of attacks from a unit.

 

We have plenty of flexibility to handle them.

 

Nightlords degenerating leaderships will probably hurt more long term. But again gunlines can easily solve this problem.

 

I know shooting is not the templar way. But ending chaos by any means necessary is the templar way.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Are world eaters allowed to take Daemon Princes? If they are, charging after getting Warp Time off with a really nasty deep striking unit, or a fast unit in general, will be absolutely devastating. 

[Brother Christopher]

It world eaters look rough on a charge but that's it.

 

We now have the full marine codex of gun options to shoot them into manageable numbers. Just killing three berserkers before melee is enough to lessen your opponents will to use the 3cp fight again, and also greatly reduces the number of attacks from a unit.

 

We have plenty of flexibility to handle them.

 

Nightlords degenerating leaderships will probably hurt more long term. But again gunlines can easily solve this problem.

 

I know shooting is not the templar way. But ending chaos by any means necessary is the templar way.

 

This. With all the highlights and drawbacks. We need to deal with hostile using any means necessary and available. If GW is afraid to boost our close combat skills, that's fine - we will beat the Emperor's foes with what we've got - superior tactics, brutal characters and support of ranged units.

 

We just need to get the charge first.

 

Sure, it would be cool to have more close combat boosts to represent our armies and it isn't great that we don't and are stuck with other, more shooty chapters. But who cares.

 

Zeal and Fury are awarded with victory!

[AlmightyWalrus]

At least we know our Chapter Tactics is worth 10 points per unit that wants to use it. Or free if you're an Ork. Rerolling charge distances was needed, sure, but now that we can get into combat there's still the issue of our melee units being weak once they get there, even with special character support.

 

 

This is what happens when you fold a melee-centric army into a more all-round one. They can't just give us a bunch of more stuff than everyone else, which means we're not going to get melee units of a caliber strong enough to fight the likes of Orks or World Eaters on equal terms in melee.

 

I started playing back in early 5th edition, so my perception is more or less based on 5th Templars. We were more or less fine (albeit weaker than C:SM) in 5th because TH/SS Terminators were more or less the best CC unit in the game (once we'd gotten 3++ shields like everyone else) and LC Terminators with FC were great, because we had permanent rerolls in CC and because Righteous Zeal made us tricky to fight.

 

Contrast this with our current situation: We don't have any particularly strong melee units (with TH/SS Termies being the strongest contender despite now being worse than in 5th) and our Chapter Tactics is laughable compared to rerolls to hit and Righteous Zeal. On the plus side we have perhaps the best Characters in the book, but they can't compensate for what we've lost (especially not since half their power is in rerolls to hit for our CC units, which we had regardless).

 

In order to be a competent melee army we would've needed melee units that can do enough attacks or good enough attacks to actually kill people and a way of getting them into CC reliably. In the past rerolls in close combat, dedicated LRCs, and Righteous Zeal helped us achieve this, and our damage output was good enough. In the transition to 8th all our melee units lost attacks but gained hitting on 3+ (unless you're our best melee unit, which still hits on 4+). We also no longer get extra attacks on the charge, which hurts too. Finally the loss of extra attacks from pistols hurts Power Weapon models like Honour Guard really harsh (and they're already hit by losing one attack from the flag).

 

In short, while we are in my opinion the best off we've been since 5th edition, we're also in my opinion still worse off than we were at a time when we were decidedly mediocre. This isn't going to improve as long as we're stuck in C:SM unless they throw us a ton of special rules and units, which would make the other Chapter Tactics players pissed.

[Brother Christopher]

That's a very reasonable summary of our history and our predicament situation. As someone who picked the game up in 5th, I share your feelings and observations, but I wouldn't have put it better than you. The thing is, in my experience we never were a top-tier army, but with the overall 'balance' of the game and buffs AlmightyWalrus listed, we were doing better than fine in melee - I felt that we relied on the quality of combat, not brutal strength or quantity.

 

One thing I said today to a friend is that "this isn't the army I chose and used to play any more" (which might be true of any army, to be honest) and this is probably the final blow for me. I will keep on painting Templars and probably get a game or two soon, but I feel disappointed because the 'product' I bought is now completely different, at least on the table top (in my heart nothing changed, though).