IS this some kind of joke?

[Ebon Hand]

So much dour saltiness! I'd expect no less from sons of Dorn, hehe.

 

I disagree that we are worse of than we were when we were mediocre. I used to play all the way back to 3rd. We used to hit on 4s when we lost our vows. Now we naturally hit on 3s like we used to with accept any challenge. Add a Chaplain in and we can still get the rerolls to hit like we used to when AAC changed. We now have Sword Brethren (Vets and Vanguards) that are worth their points. Our Marshals and Castellans provide meaningful buffs better than the LD boosting rites of battle that they used to. If you are in Helbrecht's bubble, you get the +1 Str like suffer not the Unclean to live used to give, but without an initiative penalty. Abhor the Witch is better than it's ever been. That's 3 out of our 4 vows usable at the same time! Our Emperor's Champion is as good or better at his job than he's ever been, and we aren't even forced to take him anymore.

 

We may have lost extra attacks on the charge, but EVERYONE did except Blood Angels and World Eaters, so I don't feel like that's a legitimate gripe. Yeah Honor Guard got hurt by it, but they also gained a wound. They are supposed to be bodyguards not shock troops, that role is for Vanguards, who are great for their cost.

 

Lets face it brothers, we are Scions of Dorn. CQC was always the World Eaters specialty, if you take that from them what are they besides failures and heretics? At least let them have their specialty!

 

As for Orks, we were NEVER better than them at close combat in a vacuum (ok maybe in 6th or 7th

[Schlitzaf]

Actually a Crusader Squad would better 30 Man Boyz Squad in 5th than you suspect. I did that fight so several times. If they charged a 10-13 man squad. 24 attacks. 12 hit. Reroll to wound. So 18 hit. 9 wounds. 8 dead Boyz. They struck back 18-24. So if shoota armed. 66 attacks. 33 hit. 11 wounds. 4 initiates or Neo's, let us say 5 dead total. Our Fist hits and kills a dude. 9 dead Boyz. Nob 4, 2 hit, 2 Dead guys. 7 Dead to 9 Dead. Another 2 saves. 2 More Dead Boyz about. Next turn. 12 attacks 9 hit. About 5 wounds. 4 more dead Boyz. 13-14 Boyz. 28 Attack. 14 hit. 5 wound. 2-3 dead. Fist hits kills another Boyz. 5 Dead Boyz. Nob chops a dude 3ish dead. Another more Boyz likely drop.

 

Turn 3. 8 attacks 6. 3 wounds. 3 Dead Boyz. 8-9 Boyz attack back. 8 hits. 2-3 dead. Fist will miss. Claw chomp 1. Tie combat. Next turn 1 Dead Boyz. 1 Dead Marine. Claw eats a Marine and Fist eats a Boy. 7 Boyz and 2-3 Crusaders left. While at this stage the Crusaders likely lose. It's actually a lot closer than you think. Espacially at 15 man Crusaders

[Firepower]

So we're dredging up the glory days of the past to whine about an army, which has been subpar at best since its 3.5 dex, getting above average things?

 

The 'how do we counter this' conversation is helpful and constructive.  The 'we aren't the Templars we used to be' conversation is so pulped and rotten it doesn't even resemble the dead horse it used to be.

 

On that note, as a few folks have pointed out we can match them on many of their buffs, some of which we don't even have to pay for.  Their Deny the Witch power is not even relevant to us, so we can ignore it completely.  Also, one thing Berzerkers can't do anything about: Storm Ravens.

 

Widdle them down with guns (those things we cover our LRC's in, for instance) and get the charge (which our CT helps with).  You don't have to go entirely shooty to counter a WE list, but you do have to bring guns for any game now.  It's been that way for years.  

 

Let's not get too hung up on WE either.  Chaos has a lot of new tricks, and we'd be better served discussing how to counter them all than moaning and groaning about one army being better at melee.

[Ebon Hand]

Actually a Crusader Squad would better 30 Man Boyz Squad in 5th than you suspect. I did that fight so several times. If they charged a 10-13 man squad. 24 attacks. 12 hit. Reroll to wound. So 18 hit. 9 wounds. 8 dead Boyz. They struck back 18-24. So if shoota armed. 66 attacks. 33 hit. 11 wounds. 4 initiates or Neo's, let us say 5 dead total. Our Fist hits and kills a dude. 9 dead Boyz. Nob 4, 2 hit, 2 Dead guys. 7 Dead to 9 Dead. Another 2 saves. 2 More Dead Boyz about. Next turn. 12 attacks 9 hit. About 5 wounds. 4 more dead Boyz. 13-14 Boyz. 28 Attack. 14 hit. 5 wound. 2-3 dead. Fist hits kills another Boyz. 5 Dead Boyz. Nob chops a dude 3ish dead. Another more Boyz likely drop.

 

Turn 3. 8 attacks 6. 3 wounds. 3 Dead Boyz. 8-9 Boyz attack back. 8 hits. 2-3 dead. Fist will miss. Claw chomp 1. Tie combat. Next turn 1 Dead Boyz. 1 Dead Marine. Claw eats a Marine and Fist eats a Boy. 7 Boyz and 2-3 Crusaders left. While at this stage the Crusaders likely lose. It's actually a lot closer than you think. Espacially at 15 man Crusaders

That's true it is close, but as Firepower says its history, and it's just a statistical comparison in a vacuum but it still makes my point. We all know Orks haven't been good for a while, despite the fact that they were always good in cqc for the points - if you could get them there.

 

I just don't see how anyone could be sour about our current state. Being in the same boat as the Codex worshippers has its perks, and we still function more or less the same we always have, not counting some losses. Everyone lost some special rules in the edition change, we made out pretty well I think. Let's not look a gift Ironclad in the gun barrel.

 

Back on topic though:

If we are talking threats from Chaos, we need to be aware of them being able to drop off two squads of psychopath Berserkers with a Charybdis Assault claw and Warp Timing them up with a Sorcerer. Abhor The Witch will be clutch along with a command reroll, and possibly Auspex Scan if it's appropriate. Or just be prepared to screen your vulnerable units and push out that 9 inch no deepstrike zone.

 

Take the charge with something beefy so you can fall back, shoot em up, then hit them back with a charge. I've seen Dark Angels deal with Berserkers easily enough, if they can do it we can do it better.

[Medjugorje]

So much dour saltiness! I'd expect no less from sons of Dorn, hehe.

 

I disagree that we are worse of than we were when we were mediocre. I used to play all the way back to 3rd. We used to hit on 4s when we lost our vows. Now we naturally hit on 3s like we used to with accept any challenge. Add a Chaplain in and we can still get the rerolls to hit like we used to when AAC changed. We now have Sword Brethren (Vets and Vanguards) that are worth their points. Our Marshals and Castellans provide meaningful buffs better than the LD boosting rites of battle that they used to. If you are in Helbrecht's bubble, you get the +1 Str like suffer not the Unclean to live used to give, but without an initiative penalty. Abhor the Witch is better than it's ever been. That's 3 out of our 4 vows usable at the same time! Our Emperor's Champion is as good or better at his job than he's ever been, and we aren't even forced to take him anymore.

 

We may have lost extra attacks on the charge, but EVERYONE did except Blood Angels and World Eaters, so I don't feel like that's a legitimate gripe. Yeah Honor Guard got hurt by it, but they also gained a wound. They are supposed to be bodyguards not shock troops, that role is for Vanguards, who are great for their cost.

 

Lets face it brothers, we are Scions of Dorn. CQC was always the World Eaters specialty, if you take that from them what are they besides failures and heretics? At least let them have their specialty!

 

As for Orks, we were NEVER better than them at close combat in a vacuum (ok maybe in 6th or 7th ) They are too numerous and too cheap.

 

And even with that as a specialty, we can still give World Eaters a run for their money. Almost everything they can do, we have our own version to do back to them. Fight again in a phase? Honor the Chapter. Reroll charge banner? Our chapter tactic. +1 Str Chainaxes? Helbrecht. Death to the False Emperor? Grimaldus.

 

It's not equal one for one, they may even be better at close combat in many situations, and that's fine. It would be boring if it were a total mirror match. But it isn't, we have storm shields, Landspeeders, imperium allies etc. etc.

 

Stop thinking in terms of the past. What we have to work with right now is greater than anything we've ever had in terms of flexibility, our only weakness right now is morale, the same weakness everyone has and one that is rebuffed by ATSKNF and the auto pass strategem.

 

Open the venerable old 4th edition Black Templar codex to page 27, there you will find:

 

Thought for the day: Doubt is a sign of weakness.

this is wrong, in 5th Edition after the glorious Errata - we were even better in close combat than orks. I played a lot of tournaments ( and in this time i started that thing, i was not good as i am now) Never lost to Orks,...

[Honda]

<the past> It's dead Jim.

 

This thread needs to continue to demonstrate that it can stay on target. It got off to a bad start, sort of got back on track, some really solid analysis has surfaced and that is where we need to keep our focus.

 

Winding back the clock to whine/whinge about how things used to be won't change the current set of circumstances, nor help you fight traitors and heretics.

 

You have many important battles ahead of you, prepare yourselves.

[Brother Christopher]

The real problem is that if you get charged, you're as good as dead. So two things are crucial: preventing the charge and curbing their numbers.

 

I would treat them like ork, that is like filth that they are. So a lot of fire that will cause them to fail those armour rolls: hurricane bolters, Sternguards and flyers (Ravens, Talons with assault cannons) come to mind (so do the Primaris, but they're not an option in my book).

[Gerhard]

Hmm, seems I missed this post earlier. 

 

Whilst I can understand some form of nostalgia towards earlier editions, some even dating back to the 3rd, 4th and 5th... I must say that I can't always understand the strong sense of miss-treatment that is sometimes being expressed on the forums these days. Games change as the years go by and the only way to continue to enjoy said game is to adapt and change along with it. Not doing so feels like a restaurant that is serving food from 1970 / 1980 and then wondering why customers are no longer visiting because the food has not changed.

 

I wasn't there for the apparent (?) glory-days of the Templars so many years ago, but what I do know is that when I started playing Black Templars I did not pick them for their monster CC abilities or the fact that they can not be beaten. I picked them because their lore, history and organization appealed to me greatly, and then figured out that Templars are more the 'jack of all trades'. Black Templars to me are the 'we don't care what you throw at us, we don't care what you think of us.... we'll adapt and survive' kind of Chapter, and I like that. Add in a medieval theme and you've won me over. 

 

To me Warhammer 40k has always been a game of tactics and wit. All armies, no matter how you look at them, share a common baseline of units, strenghts and weaknesses, and then gain a small advantage in a specific niche of tactics based on the Chapter or type of Army. It is then up to the Commander to decide how to build upon the strengths while defending the weaknesses, and in that sense any army can beat any other army provided you know how to handle your strenghts and weaknesses. 

 

Whether we like it or not, the game has changed, and new variables have joined the equation: Primaris. There's two things one can do: defend against them furiously, calling heresy and clinging to that which is known, or embracing the change and fully exploiting the potential strengths those units can provide, and the potential defenses to specific weaknesses they can bring. However, there is first a question to be answered before you can decide to do so.

 

That question is: "Why do you play Black Templar?". 

 

If the answer to that question is: "because I like Close Combat monsters, and want to win every game by assaulting" then perhaps you should consider rolling to a different army and focusing on small, playable armies in the Favorite of the Month, because next Month the next Chapter or Army Type will be released and they might be better then the previous one again. If the answer to that question is somewhat similar as mine: "because the fluff, the background, the lore.... (whatever), appeals to me greatly", then adapt and embrace. 

I've chosen the latter. The result? My army is evolving. Every time I play, I fine-tune it some more and I try to learn from what went wrong in the previous battle. I started in 8th edition with a full non-Primaris Crusade. Now, I've added Reivers, Hellblasters and I'm considering a Repulsor. Why? Because they make my army more competitive, and that is what I like.

 

Why do I bother? Because I love the Black Templars and I strongly believe I can make any army competitive, provided I am willing to invest, learn and adapt. 

 

 

[Ciler]

The real problem is that if you get charged, you're as good as dead. So two things are crucial: preventing the charge and curbing their numbers.

 

I would treat them like ork, that is like filth that they are. So a lot of fire that will cause them to fail those armour rolls: hurricane bolters, Sternguards and flyers (Ravens, Talons with assault cannons) come to mind (so do the Primaris, but they're not an option in my book).

There's actually something there. As Black templars we favour close combat, but ti is not a requirement. Based on their kit, khornate marines have to charge and that makes them... predictible ? Also, as you pointed they will wipe you out if they do charge, so make sure to space your units so that if they catch one, they can't consolidate into another and deny you a shooting phase.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Not too worried about the traitors and heretics tbh... they deserve a little bit of a push in comparison to the punching bag that they have been in the last few editions, with the difference of KDK lists and maybe to some extent Thousand Sons if they have their Primarch along... but the other Legions were a shadow of their former selves by 6th ed. and were not really that useful by the start of 7th... I like that they're at least getting some flavor back, so I could stomp them at their... B game :p

 

I'm more curious at how the Xenos are going to get their A game back, since they were hit by the nerf bat, and GW will probably want to increase their sales again somehow, so they'll give Xenos some love back... it won't be a massive boost probably, but even a little tweak can wreck the balance of the game if those Xenos get at least some of their old abilities back...

[Ciler]

You have a point, Chaos was even worse off than we were, so a push up isn't a bad thing.

[Lippy]

I've just read this thread from start to this point and I must say it was a bit of a rollercoaster. I don't have any whines or suggestions for how we counter the heretics (i'll leave that to the pros). I just want to raise these two points:

 

I didn't choose to play Black Templars because they're the best (I only started my crusade in October, and 7th was a rough ride!), and I'm sure many others are the same.

I chose them for the passion ZEAL they represent, and the flavourful lore that in my mind set them apart from the other more bland chapters. The strength of Marines is the flexibility, and I love the flexibility of our Crusader Squads. I believe they are the most adaptable in the codex. This is where our power lies. We are able to be either a Jack of All Trades, or a Master of both! If you want to tailor your squads to shoot the enemy, do it! If you'd rather butcher them up close, do that instead. And with the new version of Objective Secured (I forget what its called) our Infantry are even more tactically adept than the smurfs themselves

 

Secondly, as a community player, I have no problem with Chaos being stronger than they have been. Most of the chaos players in my group rarely turn up for game nights as they have not enjoyed the past two editions at all. And ultimately, the background demands a strong Chaos to represent them properly on the tabletop. As we learn how to beat them, we will only become stronger!

[Ciler]

I've just read this thread from start to this point and I must say it was a bit of a rollercoaster. I don't have any whines or suggestions for how we counter the heretics (i'll leave that to the pros). I just want to raise these two points:

 

I didn't choose to play Black Templars because they're the best (I only started my crusade in October, and 7th was a rough ride!), and I'm sure many others are the same.

I chose them for the passion ZEAL they represent, and the flavourful lore that in my mind set them apart from the other more bland chapters. The strength of Marines is the flexibility, and I love the flexibility of our Crusader Squads. I believe they are the most adaptable in the codex. This is where our power lies. We are able to be either a Jack of All Trades, or a Master of both! If you want to tailor your squads to shoot the enemy, do it! If you'd rather butcher them up close, do that instead. And with the new version of Objective Secured (I forget what its called) our Infantry are even more tactically adept than the smurfs themselves

 

Secondly, as a community player, I have no problem with Chaos being stronger than they have been. Most of the chaos players in my group rarely turn up for game nights as they have not enjoyed the past two editions at all. And ultimately, the background demands a strong Chaos to represent them properly on the tabletop. As we learn how to beat them, we will only become stronger!

You, sir, are a voice of reason.

 

You probably will never make chaplain though :o

[AlmightyWalrus]

Honestly, claiming that wanting to have melee units on par with other dedicated melee armies is "wanting to always win melee" is a little insulting. We're not asking to beat the snot out of anything we fight, we're asking why Berzerkers are slated to get 8 attacks per turn (or 6 when not charging) while our supposed elite melee units get no more than three, or wondering why Orks are better at mitigating morale than Space Marines. Recognizing that our melee potential remains shafted doesn't mean that we've given up on playing Templars.

[Firepower]

Sigh, we were so close to moving on from this... 

 

Back on topic, again, there are a number of things to watch out for in melee besides Berzerkers.  Night Lord Warp Talon spam with leadership modifiers are a dangerous scalpel, and if I read correctly Renegades can move, advance, and charge in the same turn.

 

Seems to me a useful area of discussion would be strategies to screen units.  It's not something we look too deeply into with general tactical discussions, but it seems like something to look into now.  Or are Marines too expensive to spend points on bubble wrap?  

[Castellan Doren]

If you need bubble wrap.

 

20 guardsman, 2 w/ flamers, 2 vox, one lord commander is 134pts. Less than the price of two rhinos.

 

Remember they're coming to get us, lets feed them some scraps.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Melee on a non melee book is still going to be tough... no matter how you flip the Codex, the main priority of the Codex book rests upon shooting... about 80% of the new C:SM is focused on shooting, and demanding that the shooting book be turned into a melee book because of one "sub"-faction is never going to happen...

 

tldr: we are the Kroot of a Tau book... demanding that the Tau be Kroot is like asking a Khorne book to have psykers...

 

Absolute dedicated melee units can be found in the C:SM book, but obviously they will be far more inferior to the dedicated melee units of a specified melee oriented faction book... straight from the GW developers team, they have already announced that Renegades and Chaos Space Marines will be specifically melee oriented... down to even their ranged units which should be more melee focused... even the most Elite bikers of the White Scars won't have enough attacks to compare to the more melee oriented units of the Chaos Space Marines... the only faction (because that's what they are now) that can compare to the melee advantages of the CSM book will be Blood Angels and the Space Wolves... GW has leaned more on faction specifying each... faction... so a shooty faction like the Space Marines will be focused more on shooting than in other departments... proof? Primaris... not even a single squad of Power Weapon team when they get 2 attacks and extra Wounds... they would have been good as a melee unit, but AP-1 guns instead...

 

Templars right now are not shafted, they are a melee choice in a ranged army book, that can do decent in melee, but will pay a steep price for having an army completely dedicated to it (like playing an absolute Kroot army without a single Tau unit) it's still doable, but the tactical demands and player skill required to pull it off will be... high-level tournament play... obviously we won't be able to compare our Vanguards to Death Co. nor our Crusader Squads to Khorne Berzerkers, regardless of how much we howl and complain, Templars are just not that at all...

 

They are zealous Crusaders, not howling madmen... they are pious extremists, but most definitely not blood worshiping half-possessed skull takers... even in the older fluff, they wouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe if faced against a Berzerker squad nor Death Co... unless we had the numbers obviously, and it's our Assault phase, AND we shoot the shooting phase before...

as for Morale, Orks have always had their mob rule, which is nothing new since they have to deal with 6+ Sv. anyway.... they also have less morale and we get ATSKNF... shoot a squad a few times and unless you have really bad luck, their morale should go down quite a bit and you get to see more than a few Orks go down due to Battleshock... or getting whacked in the head by a Boss Nob...

 

If it's Chaos, then I suspect they will still be hurting from their own Morale issues, as I take it they still won't have the equivalent of ATSKNF... if melee is an issue, then drown them in bullets... or pack Grav Cannons, those still hurt...

[Ebon Hand]

Comparing us to Kroot, have you gone mad brother?! Were a chaplain here, he'd strike you down for uttering such heresy.

 

What you say about Chaos being designed to be more melee focused holds some truth though. Time will tell as we have yet to see the codex and this any points changes and details, but I think it's fair to say we will have to use the same combined arms approach we've always had.

 

I think Chaos' melee prowess comes more often from their deamons and war engines though. Chaos Marine squads don't concern me, it's how to deal with things like Deamon princes, Helbrutes and Bloodthirsters. These are things for which every army needs a response.

 

It's for this reason that I think Assault Terminators are going to see lots of use for us.

 

Bubble wrap could be an issue, splicing in Guard means taking a separate detachment or losing our chapter tactics and chapter strategem. Aside from that, we have Neophytes (scouts) as our cheapest option. I don't think we are so vulnerable that we will need to do this regularly though, it's fine too just take the charge on something like a Dreadnought or Vindicator and then Assault back.

 

Again, I have to mention the Thunderfire cannon with Tremor shells for close combat threats. Its slow is pretty potent and unique, many people will be caught off guard by it. In this case you wouldn't even need a bubble wrap.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[AlmightyWalrus]

On a more positive note, I think both Vanguard Veterans and LC Terminators (or any other Deep Strike melee unit) could work really well with our Chapter Tactics. Between our rerolls and being able to instead reroll one bad result if you get a 4, 5, or 6 we have over 60% chance of successfully assaulting out of Deep Strike. Further, since we don't have to commit straight away hiding LC Terminators in Deep Strike could be a decent way of countercharging Berzerkers. Let them close in and then drop in, charge them and kill on average 7.5 of them (without rerolls to hit!).

 

Vanguard, meanwhile, are cheap enough to work as a throw-away Deep Strike assault threat while still having an okayish damage output. Running them barebones with one hammer doesn't break the bank, but still threatens backfield units and similar.

 

Honorable mention to the Ironclad Dreadnought's absolutely bonkers hammer and its ability to demolish single models with high Wounds.

[Ciler]

Alternativeley, for the price of 2 hammers, you can equip the whole unit with power axes and make sort work of any MEQ (if my math is right that's ~6 wounds without any rerolls)

[Lysere]

One thing we can do to bubble wrap is 20 man crusader squads with cenos, the relic banner, or the warlord trait. Any one of those will anchor the line against morale and give us a solid wall to engage from.

 

Simply use counter assault units and characters to shore it up.

 

I fought khorne demons a couple weeks back and that's basically what I did. The game ended with two heavily wounded captains left standing while the enemy lay dead. My stormhawk circling around with nothing to shoot.

[Schlitzaf]

So we are coming on week two of our Codex, I will post my thoughts come Sunday evening after a few more games tomorrow. But to echo some threads I have seen littered about in other sections. As we prepare for the arrival of the Chaos filth.

 

What has worked? That didn't work before the new codex or what has gotten worse with the new dex? And what didn't change?

[skoll]

So much dour saltiness! I'd expect no less from sons of Dorn, hehe.

 

I disagree that we are worse of than we were when we were mediocre. I used to play all the way back to 3rd. We used to hit on 4s when we lost our vows. Now we naturally hit on 3s like we used to with accept any challenge. Add a Chaplain in and we can still get the rerolls to hit like we used to when AAC changed. We now have Sword Brethren (Vets and Vanguards) that are worth their points. Our Marshals and Castellans provide meaningful buffs better than the LD boosting rites of battle that they used to. If you are in Helbrecht's bubble, you get the +1 Str like suffer not the Unclean to live used to give, but without an initiative penalty. Abhor the Witch is better than it's ever been. That's 3 out of our 4 vows usable at the same time! Our Emperor's Champion is as good or better at his job than he's ever been, and we aren't even forced to take him anymore.

 

We may have lost extra attacks on the charge, but EVERYONE did except Blood Angels and World Eaters, so I don't feel like that's a legitimate gripe. Yeah Honor Guard got hurt by it, but they also gained a wound. They are supposed to be bodyguards not shock troops, that role is for Vanguards, who are great for their cost.

 

Lets face it brothers, we are Scions of Dorn. CQC was always the World Eaters specialty, if you take that from them what are they besides failures and heretics? At least let them have their specialty!

 

As for Orks, we were NEVER better than them at close combat in a vacuum (ok maybe in 6th or 7th

[Ebon Hand]

To be 100% fair honor guard got hit really hard. Going down to a 2 man squad from a 5 man (basically losing a wound). The loss of the banner , the loss of extra cc weapon attack, the loss of charge bonus.

 

They are now a unit that hits on 3s instead of what likely should have been 2s.

 

You say they are body guards, but honor guard are chosen because they are the foremost champions of the chapter, designated with the protection of the chapter master, each of them a hero in his own right. At least 3 attacks would have been reasonable, and 2-4 unit size.

 

Before I never took termies because I could take honor guard, now termies are so many miles better than honorguard that is laughably bad.

 

It is also pretty hilarious that a single chapter champion has as many wounds as an honor guard squad , more attacks and he rerolls to hit vs characters.

 

Im not trying to dredge up more whining , but the honor guard nerf is a particularly sore spot for me because they represented my sword brethren.

 

- one last counter point, but from fluff not salt, remember khorne berserkers are not the equivalent of a crusader squad but a vanguard veteran, and a vanguard veteran could reasonably be expected to fight a berserker in close combat with a decent chance of winning.

 

Comparing units to the old edition versions is an exercise in futility, but I like discussing the edition change so please allow me to explain my thinking on Honor Guard.

 

Honor guard used to start at 3 men a unit. 1 Chapter Champion, 2 Honor Guard. The Honor Guard were 25 points each. That left the Champion at 35 points.

 

Now, Honor Guard have +1 wound and are 27 points (with a power axe). They are more like a unit of 4.

 

They were WS4, and so they should be hitting on 3s (which is an improvement) as most WS4 units now hit on 3s.

 

Yes they "lost" an attack on the charge, but this was an edition change, not a change to them. EVERYTHING lost an attack on the charge. But you know what else is an edition change? They can now rapid fire their bolters before charging you. That means they actually had a net gain on attacks, albeit 2 of them are with bolter stats.

 

You see, the +1 attack for charging was always supposed to represent shooting, lobbing grenades, and crashing into the enemy. Now you *actually* shoot on the way in, which means your gun matters, and crashing into the enemy is represented by going first.

 

You used to be able to add a bunch more guys to the Honor Guard squad and make a "poor man's Death star". Now they are split up into pairs, with the Chapter Champion gaining 3 wounds and the character tag and all the bonuses (and weaknesses) that entails, and the Banner Bearer became the Chapter Ancient, also gaining 3 wounds and some point cost for what he is and does.

 

Being split up has advantages and disadvantages I won't get into for the sake of brevity (that could totally be its own thread). It's not good or bad, it's just different. It changes their role from mini-deathstar to bodyguards.

 

Honor Guard are essentially extra wounds for your characters in an edition where that's not really possible unless you have a bodyguard type rule. It's like Tyrant guards for a Hive Tyrant, only not a big dirty alien. Company Vets do it too, but they aren't as well equipped default. They also have a Banner Bearer and Champion that became characters.

 

This change happened to many body guard type units in the edition change. I honestly like it, I think it fits.

 

They can still be your Sword Brethren! Mine represent Sword Brethren too, and Company Vets, Chapter and Company Champions, and Vanguards are also Sword Brethren. They are still elite heroes. My Marshal's household is honored by the weight of their deeds.

 

As for who would win, a Berserker or a Vanguard, that depends on a ton of factors. Equal points? Who got the charge? Any reroll auras? What weapons? Strategems? Etc.

 

Try some Honor Guard out. You'll be thankful for them when snipers are gunning for your Marshal or a Solitaire does a blitz hoping to snag a ninja Warlord kill. Or give your TH/SS Marshal some backup fighting a Bloodthirster who would otherwise single him out and try to obliterate him.

 

See, I stayed on topic!

[skoll]

 

To be 100% fair honor guard got hit really hard. Going down to a 2 man squad from a 5 man (basically losing a wound). The loss of the banner , the loss of extra cc weapon attack, the loss of charge bonus.

 

They are now a unit that hits on 3s instead of what likely should have been 2s.

 

You say they are body guards, but honor guard are chosen because they are the foremost champions of the chapter, designated with the protection of the chapter master, each of them a hero in his own right. At least 3 attacks would have been reasonable, and 2-4 unit size.

 

Before I never took termies because I could take honor guard, now termies are so many miles better than honorguard that is laughably bad.

 

It is also pretty hilarious that a single chapter champion has as many wounds as an honor guard squad , more attacks and he rerolls to hit vs characters.

 

Im not trying to dredge up more whining , but the honor guard nerf is a particularly sore spot for me because they represented my sword brethren.

 

- one last counter point, but from fluff not salt, remember khorne berserkers are not the equivalent of a crusader squad but a vanguard veteran, and a vanguard veteran could reasonably be expected to fight a berserker in close combat with a decent chance of winning.

 

Comparing units to the old edition versions is an exercise in futility, but I like discussing the edition change so please allow me to explain my thinking on Honor Guard.

 

Honor guard used to start at 3 men a unit. 1 Chapter Champion, 2 Honor Guard. The Honor Guard were 25 points each. That left the Champion at 35 points.

 

Now, Honor Guard have +1 wound and are 27 points (with a power axe). They are more like a unit of 4.

 

They were WS4, and so they should be hitting on 3s (which is an improvement) as most WS4 units now hit on 3s.

 

Yes they "lost" an attack on the charge, but this was an edition change, not a change to them. EVERYTHING lost an attack on the charge. But you know what else is an edition change? They can now rapid fire their bolters before charging you. That means they actually had a net gain on attacks, albeit 2 of them are with bolter stats.

 

You see, the +1 attack for charging was always supposed to represent shooting, lobbing grenades, and crashing into the enemy. Now you *actually* shoot on the way in, which means your gun matters, and crashing into the enemy is represented by going first.

 

You used to be able to add a bunch more guys to the Honor Guard squad and make a "poor man's Death star". Now they are split up into pairs, with the Chapter Champion gaining 3 wounds and the character tag and all the bonuses (and weaknesses) that entails, and the Banner Bearer became the Chapter Ancient, also gaining 3 wounds and some point cost for what he is and does.

 

Being split up has advantages and disadvantages I won't get into for the sake of brevity (that could totally be its own thread). It's not good or bad, it's just different. It changes their role from mini-deathstar to bodyguards.

 

Honor Guard are essentially extra wounds for your characters in an edition where that's not really possible unless you have a bodyguard type rule. It's like Tyrant guards for a Hive Tyrant, only not a big dirty alien. Company Vets do it too, but they aren't as well equipped default. They also have a Banner Bearer and Champion that became characters.

 

This change happened to many body guard type units in the edition change. I honestly like it, I think it fits.

 

They can still be your Sword Brethren! Mine represent Sword Brethren too, and Company Vets, Chapter and Company Champions, and Vanguards are also Sword Brethren. They are still elite heroes. My Marshal's household is honored by the weight of their deeds.

 

As for who would win, a Berserker or a Vanguard, that depends on a ton of factors. Equal points? Who got the charge? Any reroll auras? What weapons? Strategems? Etc.

 

Try some Honor Guard out. You'll be thankful for them when snipers are gunning for your Marshal or a Solitaire does a blitz hoping to snag a ninja Warlord kill. Or give your TH/SS Marshal some backup fighting a Bloodthirster who would otherwise single him out and try to obliterate him.

 

See, I stayed on topic!

The vanguard vet vs khorne berserker was pure fluff comparison(as somebody said our crusaders could never compare to them in the fluff, which isn't the point as they werent equivalent units), as they are similar levels of elite shock troops, not table top one.

 

As for the bodyguard rule, unless my interpretation is incorrect we picked up a rather substandard one. Does the honor guard suffer the mortal wound before the damage is rolled or after ? The tau shield drones suffer a single wound regardless of damage rolled which is fantastic, I've been led to believe hour honor guard absorb wounds after dmg, so say a single powerklaw swipe would kill 1.5 honorguard.

 

If it is before , they are more useful than i gave them credit for, not by loads more, but certainly at least a better meat shield.

 

The separation of the banner certainly feels a bit insulting when it comes to honor guard considering custodes kept the vexilia in squad. I understand the champion was separated due to precedent of other codexes having singular champions, hell chapter champions used to be a hero choice in various books back in the day.

 

Mind you I didnt use my honor guard as poorman s death star, two units with mauls accompanying grimmaldus was an absolute terror to anything they hit. Were they deathstars ? Certainly they dont fit that definition to me, but they were certainly solid hammer assault units.

 

But I don't think honor guard can fulfill a hammer roll anymore, they are much better off leaving that to things like lightningclaw catphracti termies (somehow 5 points cheaper than reg claw termies).

 

Funny enough to fight a blood thirster I'd prob send the emperor's champion over a Marshall, although a Marshall with a thunder hammer and the warlord trait that adds +1 to hit is certainly a combat monster given that he is back to hitting on 2s rerolling 1s