IS this some kind of joke?

[Marshal Laeroth]

Hmm, seems I missed this post earlier.

 

Whilst I can understand some form of nostalgia towards earlier editions, some even dating back to the 3rd, 4th and 5th... I must say that I can't always understand the strong sense of miss-treatment that is sometimes being expressed on the forums these days. Games change as the years go by and the only way to continue to enjoy said game is to adapt and change along with it. Not doing so feels like a restaurant that is serving food from 1970 / 1980 and then wondering why customers are no longer visiting because the food has not changed.

 

I wasn't there for the apparent (?) glory-days of the Templars so many years ago, but what I do know is that when I started playing Black Templars I did not pick them for their monster CC abilities or the fact that they can not be beaten. I picked them because their lore, history and organization appealed to me greatly, and then figured out that Templars are more the 'jack of all trades'. Black Templars to me are the 'we don't care what you throw at us, we don't care what you think of us.... we'll adapt and survive' kind of Chapter, and I like that. Add in a medieval theme and you've won me over.

 

To me Warhammer 40k has always been a game of tactics and wit. All armies, no matter how you look at them, share a common baseline of units, strenghts and weaknesses, and then gain a small advantage in a specific niche of tactics based on the Chapter or type of Army. It is then up to the Commander to decide how to build upon the strengths while defending the weaknesses, and in that sense any army can beat any other army provided you know how to handle your strenghts and weaknesses.

 

Whether we like it or not, the game has changed, and new variables have joined the equation: Primaris. There's two things one can do: defend against them furiously, calling heresy and clinging to that which is known, or embracing the change and fully exploiting the potential strengths those units can provide, and the potential defenses to specific weaknesses they can bring. However, there is first a question to be answered before you can decide to do so.

 

That question is: "Why do you play Black Templar?".

 

If the answer to that question is: "because I like Close Combat monsters, and want to win every game by assaulting" then perhaps you should consider rolling to a different army and focusing on small, playable armies in the Favorite of the Month, because next Month the next Chapter or Army Type will be released and they might be better then the previous one again. If the answer to that question is somewhat similar as mine: "because the fluff, the background, the lore.... (whatever), appeals to me greatly", then adapt and embrace.

I've chosen the latter. The result? My army is evolving. Every time I play, I fine-tune it some more and I try to learn from what went wrong in the previous battle. I started in 8th edition with a full non-Primaris Crusade. Now, I've added Reivers, Hellblasters and I'm considering a Repulsor. Why? Because they make my army more competitive, and that is what I like.

 

Why do I bother? Because I love the Black Templars and I strongly believe I can make any army competitive, provided I am willing to invest, learn and adapt.

*sniff sniff* Beautiful. I couldn't have said it any better, though it almost was as if it was coming out of my own mouth! Haha.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Actually, I'd rather not have Primaris... sure the army needs to advance sure it needs to evolve, but the Primaris represents a change in the hobby that I just can't accept...

 

1st - The Primaris represents a change in the scale, I anticipate that in a decades time all Marine models would be phased out in favor of Primaris... it would start slow right now... older Marine models would be phased out and replaced such as upgrade sprues, Terminator models, Land Raider tanks and such... don't believe me? check GW page LRC is unavailable...

they'll push the Primaris onto us until we cave and be forced to purchase... I don't know about you guys, but I want to buy what I want to buy... and I have heaps of the current Space Marines... sure they're smaller, but I bought them that way and GW might not squat them rules-wise (you can still play them but using Primaris rules... and such) but they will probably prefer it if you shelve them... and I just finished re-basing these guys to be forced to shelve them... just because a few shareholders demand more influx...

 

2nd they invoke a backwards step in the fluff... the fluff is still grimdark, the Primaris is a sign of false-hope, but the general setting is currently doing a leap forward and a step back at the same time... the setting jumped 100 years from 999.999.999.999 M.41... and apparently the dating is wrong, so it might not even be M.42 yet, but now it is a step back, the Primaris are a backward step in a sense that everyone just seems to accept the fact that they exist in the setting, much like as we are supposed to just accept the fact that the Primaris are here and apparently they should stay... every Chapter doesn't even bat an eyelid that some force that they haven't even tested trained, worked with just joined their Chapter and they are supposed to call each other Brothers... it doesn't make sense considering that majority of the Imperium is paranoid to the point that a mere new type of Servitor would be called heresy, and it is extremely uncommon that they'd just accept some sort of secret project by a Magos they haven't even heard of...

 

3rd it negates 25 years of Warhammer 40k story... don't believe me? Armageddon - solved because Daemons came and the Orks and the Steel Legion teamed up before the Primaris arrived and the Primaris cleaned up the Orks and the Daemons in the end... solved! Baal - Primaris arived, vanquished Leviathan overnight and reinforced the weakened angels Leviathan neutralized - solved! Kryptman worried over nothing... Fenris - the Thousand Sons were beaten by the time the Primaris got there but the Wolves suffered heaps of casualty... it's ok though since the Space Wolves got reinforced by Primaris bolstering their numbers back to full strength... solved!

25 years!!! of worldwide campaigns, stalemates in lore, lives hanging by a thread, worlds burned and lost, heroes made and lost... just suddenly negated by these guys who literally came out of nowhere and stopped all the current threats because big a big warp storm came... they moved the story too far forward too sudden... was the reason because the story needed to forward so extremely? NO! it was just because the company people need to eat too... so they decided to increase sales for the largest fanbase of their IP... Space Marines... enter Primaris... that's why they let GK have Chaplains and Stormtalons... GW employees need to eat, so the people who play GK can buy SM stuff now too!

 

This is why as a personal statement I won't buy Primaris... I'm not against the story for evolving but for the way that they made it evolve... it should have been threats expounded upon one another... an endless tide of Tyranids from Baal, an unstoppable WAAAGH! fueled by the wrath of Khorne, Fenris lost to the warp with only scraps of the Space Wolves left to be a Space faring Chapter and reinforced by Primaris Marines that they cannot trust... it should be the darkest that the Imperium has ever been... to the point where the revival of Guilliman means absolutely nothing and the hope of humanity now rests with the revival of the Emperor himself... but no... Primaris! The false hope of a dying Imperium! because GW has to eat too... should have made plastic Sisters of battle instead...

 

I'll keep evolving my army, but I won't take any Primaris if I can avoid it... I'll just focus on FW units instead... I don't care if I have to pack a Sokar Pattern Stormbird in a game to win... I'll do it without Primaris...

 

As for the previous HG v Terminators issue... Terminators have different jobs than Honour Guards... Honour Guards I think should be more focused on keeping Characters alive, not only in shooting but also in melee, they should also be responsible for keeping Ancients and Apothecaries alive so that they can pay their points back more... they are extremely cheap too in comparison to Terminators, and Terminators are more distraction/attack units that should operate more as a screen or in damaging infantry and light armor... they just have different jobs and should be utilized in different ways from each other...

[Ebon Hand]

Ah ok, I agree that a Crusader squad is not equivalent to a Berserker squad, and Vanguard are probably a closer comparison, although with background it can be even more variable since the individual characters and situation matter more than the unit itself.

 

The bodyguard rule is after damage received, but that means that your character takes all of his saves and any wounds he actually takes can instead be put on Honor Guard. That's why the wounds are mortal, to keep you from doubling up on saves or dodging damage with shenanigans. I think it's cool as it means the durability of the character still matters: some characters are harder to protect than others. Every bodyguard rule I've seen works like this. Like I said, it's like they add wounds to your characters.

 

I believe the Tau one was faqed to work this way too. Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

I can understand if that wasn't what you want them to do game wise, but lore wise it makes sense. Honor Guard protect the Commander, they aren't the tip of the spear, they're the core.

 

I like that they seperated the banner. You can keep it safe or move it around as you see fit without having to have the Honor Guard have to stay with him, or they can guard your banner. Interesting that the Custodes stay with theirs. Their banner bearer is also 1 wound less. Custodes are weird.

 

Actually I think I would be confident putting my Emperor's Champion up against a Bloodthirster as well, they're characters after all. It's just that they have so much wounds, you would definitely want some Honor Guard or Company Vets backing him up or else he could get demolished after he attacks. A Marshal would be better though, with a 3+ inv to block those d6 damage hits and a Thunderhammer doing 3 damage a hit wounding on 3s.

 

Marshal Roujakis, I totally get your feelings on Primaris, but I think those events are just like you said, false hope. The imperium is so destroyed at this point that even the Primarus' victories would barely put a dent in everything that needs to be done. Dark Imperium is galaxy wide destruction on the level we haven't seen since the Horus Heresy. I'm seeing lots of throwbacks to the Heresy right now, like you said it's like they went forward and backwards at the same time.

 

I don't think Primaris are being accepted everywhere, your own post is proof of that. I'm quite sure fluff will emerge depicting that struggle. I think that's why they have kind of grown on me. I like the predicament of tradition vs necessity.

 

I'm not convinced yet that Primaris are replacing the old Astartes. I don't think we need them to beat Chaos either, but I'll admit some of the models are pretty cool. Maybe that's why they're so readily accepted?

[Aegir_Einarsson]

In case of model i like them. I like primaris Chaplain apothecary heavy bolt pistols looks much better (on Chaplain lovely).

 

As for gaming point of viev - i think that Every way to slain some heretics, And chaos scum is good. Of course i don't like Every model And fluff is bad, but some of them may be used without some fluff destruction. Reaviers for example.

And we have many more options not to use new marines for example scions with plasmas with tempestor prime as vanguard detachement And deep strike them, as "helblasters"

[Sete]

When we have Primaris Crusader Squads, I'll have a look at them.

[skoll]

Primaris are certainly replacing normal marines, much in the way storm casts replaced any releases from the old empire.

 

As for honorguard not being the tip of the spear, I dont know, whenever we read about chapter masters goint to war personally they always seem to be were fighting is fiercests , inspiring his battle brothers to further feats of heroism , the honor guard around him, paragons of the chapter , heroes in their own right. While surely they are more than willing to lay their lives low for the chapter master the easiest and most effective way to neutralize a threat is to kill it, not intercept it with their bodies (otherwise I'd see them walking around with double storm shields)

 

Funny thing, is iron hands honor guard actually get their 6+ fnp after absorving the wound from a character, even cheesier because they get to do it after the character already failed his own.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Primaris are certainly replacing normal marines, much in the way storm casts replaced any releases from the old empire.

 

As for honorguard not being the tip of the spear, I dont know, whenever we read about chapter masters goint to war personally they always seem to be were fighting is fiercests , inspiring his battle brothers to further feats of heroism , the honor guard around him, paragons of the chapter , heroes in their own right. While surely they are more than willing to lay their lives low for the chapter master the easiest and most effective way to neutralize a threat is to kill it, not intercept it with their bodies (otherwise I'd see them walking around with double storm shields)

 

Funny thing, is iron hands honor guard actually get their 6+ fnp after absorving the wound from a character, even cheesier because they get to do it after the character already failed his own.

 

And Honour Guard can still do that, they have access to Power Weapons, can shoot in melee with their Pistols, can shoot twice out of melee because of their Bolter, can hit with a 3+ and will benefit from a character that they have to protect.

 

They can still deal damage and have a 2+ save and has 2W per model while keeping their previous points cost... if you're having an issue because there are only 2 per squad, then have 2 squads... you could even have a different force org chart for them so you could benefit for more CP... Terminators can hit harder than they do, but Terminators have lost their niche since 5th ed. being too expensive while not doing damage... now both of them have their uses again, Terminator dealing heavy damage, while Honour Guard dealing damage while protecting characters not just from Snipers, but from melee attacks too... Terminators can't do that...

[Schlitzaf]

My main annoyance mechanically anyways is that our Crusader Squads cannot take Primaris Models. I mean why can't they? It just feels so backwards for our lore. And given other armies are getting Primaris versions of their speciality troops (admittedly only characters level ones), I was kinda hoping we were gonna too.

 

So in regards to Primaris, I've been thinking, what would everyone think of being able to add 0-5 "Primaris" Marines into our Crusader Squad? With the options of HvyPistol&Knife or BoltRifle? I might try a few test games to see how they play.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[skoll]

My main annoyance mechanically anyways is that our Crusader Squads cannot take Primaris Models. I mean why can't they? It just feels so backwards for our lore. And given other armies are getting Primaris versions of their speciality troops (admittedly only characters level ones), I was kinda hoping we were gonna too.

 

So in regards to Primaris, I've been thinking, what would everyone think of being able to add 0-5 "Primaris" Marines into our Crusader Squad? With the options of HvyPistol&Knife or BoltRifle? I might try a few test games to see how they play.

It would prevent the squad from going in vehicles, which is kind of a drawback, unless you are doing a super 25 man squad of foot slogging but , morale would certainly hurt you

[Schlitzaf]

I mean I normally footslog with 13-15 man Squads. And yes shooting can hurt but I bring a lot of 'distraction' Carnfixes in one sense to allow my Crusaders to Cross the table. (11 "Reserved" Units, often provides plenty of Fire saturation)

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Primaris are certainly replacing normal marines, much in the way storm casts replaced any releases from the old empire.

 

And yet we have even more further proof that a massive change in GW model line is coming...

I just did a run through of GW online page for all models that they have taken off... and I must say, some of the items weren't even on Last Chance to buy list...

They were just completely SOLD OUT...

and I mean SOLD OUT permanently... they aren't refurbishing the models nor is it temporarily out of stock, they are gone forever...

and some of them are new, like the Dark Eldar stuff, the Starter Box sets, even new sprues like the Hive Tyrant...

 

If I were you, I'd grab Templar upgrade sprues now if you need them before GW just suddenly decides to take them off...

The change is subtle... but it's definitely there... and I'd wager the scale changes and the squatting of Marines in favor of Primaris might come sooner than we think...

[Ciler]

 

Primaris are certainly replacing normal marines, much in the way storm casts replaced any releases from the old empire.

 

And yet we have even more further proof that a massive change in GW model line is coming...

I just did a run through of GW online page for all models that they have taken off... and I must say, some of the items weren't even on Last Chance to buy list...

They were just completely SOLD OUT...

and I mean SOLD OUT permanently... they aren't refurbishing the models nor is it temporarily out of stock, they are gone forever...

and some of them are new, like the Dark Eldar stuff, the Starter Box sets, even new sprues like the Hive Tyrant...

 

If I were you, I'd grab Templar upgrade sprues now if you need them before GW just suddenly decides to take them off...

The change is subtle... but it's definitely there... and I'd wager the scale changes and the squatting of Marines in favor of Primaris might come sooner than we think...

 

Before you start panicking, and spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt, take a step back.

 

Most of the items that are being market as "sold out" do come back. We've had a typical exemple with the Space Wolves start collecting pack, which was sold out 2 weeks ago and is now back to available. Exact same sprues, different packaging (new box and new booklets with the V8 datasheets). You don't believe me, go check in your local GW store.

 

There was a huge fuss last week when land raider crusader boxes went "sold out". They are now "unavailable online". Why in heaven would they remove the LRC from their range in the same week as they released a codex in which it features ? Why would they remove a tyrannid model that's only months old ?

 

For stuff like the Dark Eldars, have you considered that they have changed name to Drukhari (the words "dark eldars" do not appear as such in the rule book), so maybe there's some need to relabel the boxes for the benefit of new players ?

 

So no, enough of that bull:cuss. I'm not saying there isn't a couple of models that are being phased out, but there isn't a MAJOR cleanup operation ongoing, Games is simply repackaging most of their products to provide datasheets, and that means the older conditionning is being phased out. The conditionning, NOT the models. That's why they didn't go on the "last chance" list, they will become available again.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Ciler

[Firepower]

LRC is still available from what I can see on my phone

[Sete]

Reboxing.

 

The Old SM line won't go away.

They just won't get releases. All the new stuff will be Primaris.

 

But they will be around, like Empire/Free People on Age of Sigmar.

 

Like Ciler said unless we see the last chance to buy, no reason to worry.

[TrexPushups]

If I was a black Templar player I would salivating at the chance to use Cataphractii Terminators with storm bolters & lightening claws while in high marshal Helbricht's +1 str aura.

 

Str 5 with wound re-rolls on a durable platform that shoots well is pretty tempting.

[Ebon Hand]

Another point, the Grey Knights just got a new grand master model and he isn't Primaris as far as I know. Empire might not get any new releases, but they aren't squatted, and they aren't really comparable to Space Marines either.

 

With 10 codexes by the end of the year, I really don't expect to see very many new releases in general.

 

Of course, updates to old kits and plastic Sisters would be welcome, and fit with the Chaos everywhere theme.

[Ciler]

LRC is still available from what I can see on my phone

After some variation in status, all flavours of Land raider as well as the LRC upgrade sprue have gone "out of stock online (email me when available again)" in europe. Not sure about US. 

[Firepower]

 

LRC is still available from what I can see on my phone

After some variation in status, all flavours of Land raider as well as the LRC upgrade sprue have gone "out of stock online (email me when available again)" in europe. Not sure about US. 

 

 

Yup, just got to my laptop and it's still available.  I guess the British based company just loves USA more than Europe? :teehee:

 

As a general question, what in the hell is this thread supposed to be about now?

[Ciler]

I think it's gone completely off it's intended rails.

[Sete]

I reckon our chapter tactics is taking into account the fact that maybe later on we will have Primaris crusader squads or at least dedicated CC units. (Reivers don't count, and if you use them shame on you! Shame!)

 

Take the basic Primaris Marine.

2 attacks base, 2 wounds, re roll charges.

Add a chainsword, 5 guys make 15 attacks.

Add a power sword it's 2 attacks basically denying a save.

 

And then if we have veterans with 3 attacks?

It's going to be awesome.

 

Our CT was design with the Primaris in mind basically.

 

So I'll wait for Warzone Armaggedon, I'm sure we will be there fighting Khorne and Orks.

GW is going for small factions, DG, TS, GSC, DW are all proof of that. Our time will come.

It is certain.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Sete

[skoll]

I reckon our chapter tactics is taking into account the fact that maybe later on we will have Primaris crusader squads or at least dedicated CC units. (Reivers don't count, and if you use them shame on you! Shame!)

 

Take the basic Primaris Marine.

2 attacks base, 2 wounds, re roll charges.

Add a chainsword, 5 guys make 15 attacks.

Add a power sword it's 2 attacks basically denying a save.

 

And then if we have veterans with 3 attacks?

It's going to be awesome.

 

Our CT was design with the Primaris in mind basically.

 

So I'll wait for Warzone Armaggedon, I'm sure we will be there fighting Khorne and Orks.

GW is going for small factions, DG, TS, GSC, DW are all proof of that. Our time will come.

It is certain.

Im also hoping for a power weapon primaris squad, but dont get your hopes up about supplements, DG amd TS are getting their own book, because they arent in the current release.

 

So for a templar only book we'd need to have been left out of the main book

[Sete]

I bet WE and EC will have a dedicated codex aswell and yet they are part of CSM for now. Not saying it will happen this year, but I am confident that it will happen.

In any case even if we don't get a codex, we will get something at least.

[bolvar]

GW won't release primaris squads with only power weapons, because:

 

A) They need mobility. This is key, currently primarines can only ride in repulsors and thunderhawks. That, or grav-chutes/hooks ala reivers, so that road is closed too.

The jump-pack ones are the inceptors, and they fulfill a more shooty/melee tackle role.

The only option left is some kind of primaris bikers, bearing power weapons, but with our current codex launched, I guess that concept should wait for some kind of expansion/primaris codex/release with rules in datasheets/faqs or such.

 

A2) With primaris squads with only power weapons, reivers would be displaced.

 

B ) Aggresors. They are the ones who most resemble "primaris terminator" idea, and they resemble more tactical terminators/mix of both centurion flavours.

 

C) They would be too similar to vanguard veterans. If you look at the current primaris units, barring characters, currently they keep some distance from the classic marines unit concept (at least for the time being, only the Emperor knows what will bring further codex).

 

 

I won't expect them

Edited August 8, 2017 by bolvar

[Ciler]

On a somewhat different topic, but because that has been touched on earlier in this thread : GW has released it's tournament rules package for warhammer world on the community website, and they confirm (again) that characters on bike from indexes are perfectly allowed in the tournament.

[skoll]

GW won't release primaris squads with only power weapons, because:

 

A) They need mobility. This is key, currently primarines can only ride in repulsors and thunderhawks. That, or grav-chutes/hooks ala reivers, so that road is closed too.

The jump-pack ones are the inceptors, and they fulfill a more shooty/melee tackle role.

The only option left is some kind of primaris bikers, bearing power weapons, but with our current codex launched, I guess that concept should wait for some kind of expansion/primaris codex/release with rules in datasheets/faqs or such.

 

A2) With primaris squads with only power weapons, reivers would be displaced.

 

B ) Aggresors. They are the ones who most resemble "primaris terminator" idea, and they resemble more tactical terminators/mix of both centurion flavours.

 

C) They would be too similar to vanguard veterans. If you look at the current primaris units, barring characters, currently they keep some distance from the classic marines unit concept (at least for the time being, only the Emperor knows what will bring further codex).

 

 

I won't expect them

 

I dont think they particularly care for the stepping on toes argument. After all look at all the primaris versions of characters , they are just straight upgrades of their vanilla versions. Just with the inavility to ride transports. They have limited wargear options but that is just as a way to sell more kits. In the future we will likely see primaris captains with axes, mauls ,etc.

 

So a 3 attack close combat primaris unit with power weapons is not altogether unlikely, just pretty sure they will be locked to a single load out like power swords or something to that tune.