Manufacturing older armour types

[Wargamer]

So according to the GW site, a small number of Chapters still possess the ability to manufacture Mk IV plate. I would assume the same is true of other models (ie: Raven Guard at least must be manufacturing Mk VI).

 

Now this thought just occurred to me; if you can manufacture Mk VII, why wouldn't you be able to make any other type? I can understand Mk VI being a problem because it in the Deathwatch RPG it had something about Corvus being really well-fitting, suggesting it might require a much higher degree of precision, but what about the others? Is Maximus actually superior to Aquila? Or is it just that it is made using techniques and materials that are now obscure compared to the modern standards?

 

I'm interested in what you all think.

[Doghouse]

I think Mk IV is was problematic even at the time when it was created during the Great Crusade. The impression I always had was that it involved alien technologies and was difficult to maintain even when the Imperium was at it's prime which lead to the Heresy variants that were used during the civil war.

 

Given that knowledge is basically wrapped in religion and superstition in modern 40k it could be a case of those forges that can produce it may be the only sanctioned ones or are jealously guarding the information to produce it from the rest of the Imperium.

I think given the dystopian nature of the Imperium and the religious nature of the Ad Mech information could be used to maintain power but it could also be a more simpler case of these forgeworlds being the only ones that possess the necessary manufacturing facilities to actually be able to construct them.  

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Alot of the older equipment was meant to be better, mkiv was meant to be the best armour made at the time of the heresy, then the HH happened and many things were damage and lost, also a new armours were made quickly due to needing to replenish stocks, and with any mass produced item quality is sacrificed (even if it isnt represent in game terms, although if you look at tartaros terminator armour with better movement stat you see a HH era armour that is better than current armour) so aquila and errant armour while functional and offering good protection but may not be as comfortable or have as good a range of movement as mkiv, and its taken the better part on 10,000 years to get a quality similar to what was being made pre-heresy, as the mechanicus arent always so good at advancing beyond the plans they have infront of them.

 

The mechanicus would also say its heresy to reverse engineer a suit of mkiv armour by tearing apart an old suit of it so that stops any forgeworld that doesnt have an STC from making it.

 

This is why mkX armour that is worn by the primaris incorporates design elements from most other mks as it represents the most advanced power armour made by combining both old and new.

[Arkangilos]

Materials and blue prints. Without the actual blue prints and specifications they can't make it.

[apologist]

On Mark IV in particular, from a practical, modern-day view, I think the level of precision and rarity of materials is what would prevent a manufactorum capable of producing Mk VII from producing Mk IV. If you've got both STC templates, it's simply something like the difference between manufacturing a Nokia 3310 and an iPhone. They both do basically the same thing, but one's much easier and cheaper to make.

 

+++

 

However, I think the main in-universe reason for a general inability to alter what's being made is as much spiritual as practical. The reactionary, dogmatic nature of techpriests and general violent aversion to innovation would put a great cultural brake on individual initiative; even for something that, to us, is simple and obvious.

 

You'd have something of the same reaction if you imagine yourself a Ford factory boss (or similar), and someone asks you to start producing Nissan cars. While there's no practical reason that the factory floor couldn't be adapted in short order, you'd probably feel uneasy about authorising it. That sense of unease at being asked to do something that isn't within your sphere – particularly something that would destabilise your company – will be familiar whatever your job is.

 

Practically, there would be legal barriers, intellectual property rights, problems with material sourcing, and unrest from both the disrupted workforce and from outraged higher-ups.

 

Those would all be turned up to eleven in the Imperium: materials don't just come from other cities or countries, but might come from other worlds – worlds with which the manufactorum's guild-owners might have had generational alliances. Bureaucratic permissions might take decades or centuries to come, and further years (and much bribery) to enact.

 

Now hang a religious angle on there – that the local enginseers would consult their techpriest, who would consult his superior, who would have to dig through archives to find precedent, or contact a distant Forgeworld, or commune with the Machine God – and that's not necessarily something that can have a rational outcome.

 

Finally, while all this is going on, the local Chapter turns up for desperately needed supplies, only to find out the factory has gone into shutdown...

Edited August 2, 2017 by Apologist

[Race Bannon]

Is reverse engineering out of possibilities for Techmarines or the magicians on Mars?

[Ebon Hand]

Some fleet based Chapters like the Black Templars produce their own war material on forge ships. At that point their ability to produce armor is limited only by their own will to do so and having the proper materials.

 

I suspect that's part of the reason why Black Templar upgrade sprues come with Mark iv helms.

 

I don't think reverse engineering would be impossible, especially for Techmarines who sometimes have less hangups about proper procedure, but I don't think it would be the norm either since taking apart a priceless relic, there's no guarantee you could reassemble it properly or even understand how it works without proper documents or blueprints.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Arkangilos]

Definitely not. That's how the BA got access to the lucifer engines.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Generally speaking reverse engineering anything is a no go area for the mechanicus, from general reading it seems to be a case of "does it work? Yes. Do we know how to produce it? No. Then put down that screw driver and leave the venerable relic alone, do you want to upset the machine spirit!!! Or should i just brand you as the heretic i think you are for even thinking about looking inside this treasured relic from a bygone age"* atleast that was the impression i got anyway

 

*some liberty's have been taken by posting the english version of screams in machine cant with the rage of a thousand dot matrix printers.

[Arkhanist]

MK II was designed for the great crusade, and the first with a fully enclosed life support system and autosenses. The many parts made it hard to repair 'on the go'. MK III was a variant for boarding actions and frontal assaults with stronger front armour, but that makes it heavy and clumsier than MK II  and was still a bugger to maintain.

 

MK IV simplified the design somewhat, and used advanced technology and materials (some redescovered during the crusade, some possibly also stolen from xenos) to make the cabling at least tougher and better, improved the autosenses, and reduced the weight as well as improved the power plant which largely remained the same in later marks. Many consider it to have been the most sophisticated mark of power armour. To repair it, you mainly just swapped out the damaged part with a new one so in theory quicker to repair since there were less parts. However, because of the advanced materials and techniques, it was slow and expensive in manpower and resources to make. It was anticipated that the great crusade was coming to a close, so the marines would be transitioning to a garrison and defence force and need less repairs than previously.

 

Of course, the heresy happened, and many of the loyal legions had been starved of MK IV and only had their worn out MK II & III suits. This, plus supply chain problems with MK IV from Mars lead to the defacto MK Vs; bits of previous marks, plus cobbled together locally made spares with the bonded plates of inferior armour to try and strengthen it, which lead to more weight - you could run the powerplant harder but that would lead to overheating problems. Nobody would make this now.

 

MK VI was mass produced later in the heresy, and was a somewhat stopgap design to replace MKs II, IV and V. The beaky helmet had the best autosenses yet though, and given it was designed with the help of the Raven Guard, it was lighter and stealthier than previous marks. Individual parts could be built different ways depending upon the local tech capabilities, and it was explicitly designed to be modular, so it could be mixed with older marks easier if necessary. Heretics captured a bunch of these and the plans when they captured Mars.

 

MK VII was the final evolution of MK VI on earth at the tail end of the heresy. It put the chest power cables (a regular weak point of previous designs) under the chest plate  and replaced the helmet. It kept the modularity of VI, and parts could easily be swapped between VI and VII. It's modularity and ability to make parts out of simpler materials depending upon local tech means it's remained the main design in use up until 40k.

 

MK VIII was an update of MK VII to fix some of the known weak points, such as the neck joint, but the requirement of a new helmet made it not backwards compatible. But by this point, dogma and tradition had replaced the science-based secular Imperial Truth of the Emperor so it didn't catch on.

 

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So for normal marines, MK IV is arguably the pinnacle of quality - as seen in tartaros armour, which is based upon it - but it requires advanced materials and techniques to make which is why most chapters don't use it any more. MK VII is a lot simpler to make and maintain depending on what's available locally, and is why it's the standard mark - but the quality can definitely vary. If you want light and (relatively) stealthy with the best autosenses, you go for MK VI. MK II is arguably the most flexible to use given the smaller overlapping plates but the design is obsolete and parts very hard to come by so entire suits are extremely rare. Heretics have what they had at the end of the heresy, so mostly V and VI, with some defaced VII for more recent traitors and of course, the mandatory spikes added by the dark mechanicus. The new death guard shows they hung onto their MK III as well.

 

MK X is Cawl's new version for primaris marines, and is basically a larger and more modular version of MK IV with a new powerplant and a few ideas from earlier marks, such as the neck protection from VIII and the chest power cable protection from VII. Presumably it will become the standard mark as primaris replace normal marines.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Closet Skeleton]

Maximus armour has the best 'specs' but is strategically inferior to Mark 6 and 7 armour. Its far better to be sure of having armour than to risk not being able to keep your armour maintained.

 

The specific materials needed to build Maximus armour are a logistical nightmare to equip a galaxy wide army (operating under space opera logic where all elements aren't just roughly equivalently spread between star systems of the same age). But if you have a chapter keep right on top of where those materials would be exported from anyway then if would make sense for a chapter to preserve the knowledge of making Maximus armour.