Shrike Vs Chaplains

[KGatch113]

So, would you say GW dropped the ball on Shrike?

 

I know there's a tendency to not change a character from edition to edition.

 

But, there's really no reason to take Shrike. 

 

He's good in combat, but he's no Lysander. The Raven's Talons could have been made +1 strength, but weren't. 

 

Hi army boosting ability is to reroll misses and charges Ok, it's good. But, you'll probably be using it either on an assault element, or hanging back with shooters. So you have a jump pack character with assault weapons sitting with Devs...it's nice, he can protect them, but something about it just rubs me wrong. Plus, I'm not putting real shooters in my army.

 

So, you use him to augment your assault elements. For almost 60 points less, you can have a chaplain that can do it. Not only with comparable HTH ability, but the chappy boosts Morale, and can have the Raven's Fury, making him faster. As for the reroll charges, there are other ways to get that, maybe not as surefire, but cheaper....

 

Plus, as an assaulter, he dies really quickly, so you lose the points on him fast....

Edited August 2, 2017 by KGatch113

[Claws and Effect]

Compare Shrike now to 7th Edition Shrike. There is no doubt he is better.

 

Comparing Shrike to a Chaplain is apples to oranges.

 

Shrike himself rerolls all misses, not just 1s. The Ravens Talons reroll to wound and deal D3 damage. He's not a combat monster, but he isn't supposed to be.

 

He has the Chapter Master reroll aura, and is the only one with enough mobility to not lock him to one unit for the whole game. He can move his aura where it's needed.

 

If you're camping a jump pack equipped Chapter Master in the backfield with Devastators, you're doing it wrong.

 

Also, doesn't he also have a reroll charges aura? Can a Chaplain do that?

 

And he's the cheapest Chapter Master.

 

Not really seeing how GW dropped the ball here.

[Extropian]

They definitely don't really have comparable melee power either. More attacks, re-rolling wounds, better AP (stock anyway, though are few weapons as all-round solid as the Ravens Talons).

 

He's superior in every way to a Chaplain except the morale boost, which marines rarely need. He is however also suitably more expensive.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Put him with a vanguard veteran squad that have plasma pistols and you can fire overcharged plasma shots safely before charging in, a chaplain cant make this happen as his rerolls are for the fight phase only.

 

Its all about what unit you want to field alongside your heroes and vice versa, going pure melee a chaplain gets the job done, taking so plasma pistols take shrike.

 

Alternatively are you drop podding 5-10 company veterans with plasmaguns to cause as much damage as possible? Then take shrike for the rerolls to hit.

 

The core of the matter is what units are you taking and how do you want them buffed, what goal are they set to achieve, put a jump pack lieutenant into the mix and your drop pod unit could destroy a primaris gun line in a turn by putting out 20 overcharged shots rerolling all misses and rerolling 1s to wound which will be their only fail chance when targetting toughness 4.

[Claws and Effect]

What makes Shrike different from other comparable characters isn't that he's amazing at one particular thing.

 

He's tactically flexible. He can do most anything you ask of him and do it fairly well. Except shoot, he's not good at that.

 

Characters like Lysander need to be in melee to be useful, Shrike doesn't have that limitation.

 

Depending on unit placement he can buff Devastator shooting and grant Vanguard a charge reroll in the same turn. And then he could charge a unit himself if you like.

[duz_]

I am of the opposite view to the OP
I find theres actually very little reason to take a Chaplain with or instead of Shrike unless points are a concern.

I found this out last weekend when I was putting my list together and almost included a Jump Chaplain when I realised there was little benefit in doing so.
Shrike does work in combat, with the WL trait of no overwatch he's perfect to lead the charge for VV's!

 

I StfS 2 squads of VV's in deployment, T1 I dropped in shrike 9" away from my target, which both VV's were already 1" away from. He charged first making it in, letting the other 2 units of VV's join in without being overwatched and they all got their re-rolls to hit! B)

 

His aura is infinitely more flexible, imagine my next game was against a more assault oriented army I could camp him in the back with my Dev's giving them re-rolls to hit, whilst the Lt gives them re-rolls 1 to wound. The Chaplain doesn't have that flexibility. 

I did consider running a Chaplain with ASM's though, while Shrike was with the VV's, but I'm not sure that would really be worth it.

[NiceGuyAdi]

KGatch, although consensus seems to be Shrike is definitely not worthless, I'm glad you at least think Chaplains are viable.

 

I've always liked them thematically; mine is currently my only painted HQ choice, and I was started to get a little worried by just how little mentioned they've been since 8th dropped.

[Claws and Effect]

I'm planning on using a jump Chaplain with the FA detatchment, which will consist of assault squads and land speeders.

 

Shrike will be in a different detachment with some Vanguard.

[Biscuittzz]

Can't tell if the OP is actually serious or not. Surely a simple reading of both units would show that Shrike is miles better.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

KGatch, although consensus seems to be Shrike is definitely not worthless, I'm glad you at least think Chaplains are viable.

 

I've always liked them thematically; mine is currently my only painted HQ choice, and I was started to get a little worried by just how little mentioned they've been since 8th dropped.

I have ran a chaplain on foot most games this addition and he has been a great front line commander, as my warlord captain normally sticks to buffing devastators and ven dreads, he prevents units failing morale tests and occasionally shines in combat either by tanking hits (this model seems blessed by the way as i generally pass invulnerable saves with it, hes only died once this edition) or by receiving might of heroes and just churning through an enemy unit for a few turns.

[KGatch113]

My original post already refuted most of what has been said here. Oh well.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It didn't, really.

 

"He can be flexible and buff both shooting and melee units, but I'm not going to use shooting units"

 

Looks like you're wasting half the potential and poorly constructing lists

 

"Chaplains have comparable cc"

 

6 total potential wounds compared to shrikes potential 15, with a lesser to hit roll ap no reroll to wounds.

 

"Chappy boosts morale"

 

True, but +1 ld isn't a huge boost, not like fearless. It makes your 5 man squads 4 deaths instead of 3 to lose guys. Either way it's gutted already.

 

"Can take ravens fury making him faster"

So? It's a bad item in that's its for assassins; a chaplain is not a very good vehicle for it.

 

"There are other ways to get charge rerolls"

A librarian? One unit and it's not automatic, and also costs another drop and 90ish points.

[Claws and Effect]

What do you think Shrike SHOULD be?

 

He is perfectly suited to the Chapter he leads.

 

The Chaplain you claim is better grants rerolls in the fight phase only. How does that help your plasma pistol equipped Vanguard in the shooting phase while still locked in combat?

 

Boosts Morale? In an army that already has good Ld and rerolls failed Morale rolls?

 

Comparable in melee? Does your Chaplain reroll to hit AND to wound with D3 damage?

 

Reroll charges? You could spend a CP to do that I suppose, but Shrike does it for free, and grants it to multiple units at once if they are in range.

 

Your OP didn't really refute anything at all. If anything it shows that you might be playing the wrong chapter for your playstyle. Given how focused you seem to be on assault ability, perhaps Templars would be a better fit?

 

Or maybe you could give some info on what you think Shrike SHOULD be.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Picking the chaplain over Shrike only makes sense if your list is all close combat without jump packs.  Then you save 50 points or so.  Thing is... Raven Guard isnt exactly the chapter that would attract players who want a rhino rush CC army.  

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

My original post already refuted most of what has been said here. Oh well.

While your original question has the opportunity to spur real discussion, this sort of a response does not. You come across as someone who drops in un-announced, ask the group a question, and then once you start hearing their answers, you dismiss them with a hand wave. Your question doesn't address all the factors, and neither does any one persons post in this thread. That's the beauty of the thread though, as more people chime in, we can all start to develop a more cohesive analysis of the situation in question.

 

On a more personal note, my biggest gripe with Shrike and 8th edition, is I feel he should be bumped up 1W and to a 2+ save like every other Chapter Master. The fact that he still has a Captain's stat line is...odd to say the least.

 

In addition to that, when you go hunting for a Chapter Master buff, I think for Shrike it boils down to a few key points: He's Fast, He's Cheap (comparably), and He's Flexible. The ability to not only move around the battlefield quickly to shift that re-roll aura, but also to Deep Strike it, is very very good. If you feel that it isn't, my question would be to you: Have you actually played games with him yet? If you have actually played him, I would love to see how you used him, what you tried to buff with him, and what he went up against and got canned by?

[duz_]

I agree it would have been nice for him to at least have a 2+
You can't even give him the armour relic with the 2+/(once per game) 3++ 

 

I'm still pleased with him though, I no longer have to run my pseudo Shrike (ie generic captain using Shrike model) as I did in 7th :)

[Race Bannon]

I have it in my head that his Captain stats reflect a newly-minted Chapter Master ... he's not in the position long enough to gain more wounds

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I have it in my head that his Captain stats reflect a newly-minted Chapter Master ... he's not in the position long enough to gain more wounds

 

I think what you mean to say is he has been a badass for so long that he should have had Chapter Master stats 2 editions ago 

[NiceGuyAdi]

I'm still pleased with him though, I no longer have to run my pseudo Shrike (ie generic captain using Shrike model) as I did in 7th :)

As opposed to the 8th edition pseudo-Shrike: his rules with Edeyc Setorax's model!

[Alcyon]

I doubt many of us are running Shrike to be a CC beatstick all by himself, so I look at the weaker statline as a benefit - makes him cheaper pointswise ;)

 

My 2¢ is I think Space Marines in 8th are really about maximizing the impact of the HQ auras. They make many units far more viable and useful than otherwise, and that's being borne out in competition right now. The Chapter Master benefit is a huge buff over the Captain aura, especially for units hitting on a 4+ (anything heavy that moved, or that's shooting at fliers.)

 

It's also a big deal that he can deep strike to instantly buff a unit's shooting, whereas most other Chapter Masters cannot (other than Calgar and his Terminator Armour.) That tactical flexibility alone is a lot; if you have multiple units that benefit from his aura, your opponent has no idea which squad to focus down because they have no clue where he'll land in your next turn.

[Biscuittzz]

MWG have a new battle report up where Steve uses Shrike. Basically has him sit behind a unit of Vanguard, Assault marines and tactical Terminators as they deepstrike in and advance across the board, shredding everything.

 

The rerolls from his aura are amazing. His flexibility is in being able to choose when and where to fight. People looking for a character to take on +2/+3 invulnerable characters/ beatsticks should find another Chapter to play.

 

My take on it is that you should never throw Shrike into a melee with ANY chance of losing. Only get him to smash things that you know he'll win against and you'll see his true value. He was made for shredding backline units like devs, objective holders etc.

[duz_]

Definitely he (not unlike VVs) can mince light to medium infantry. Don't run him unsupported against a Terminator squad or large hordes though!

[Alcyon]

MWG have a new battle report up where Steve uses Shrike. Basically has him sit behind a unit of Vanguard, Assault marines and tactical Terminators as they deepstrike in and advance across the board, shredding everything.

Do you mean Mountain Man Gaming where he plays RG vs. Orks? I can't find an RG batrep from Miniwargaming (I'm assuming that's what MWG stands for)