Whiners about Astra Militarum

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tbf Facebook groups are a bad litmus test for any community, but the 40K ones are particularly bad a bit of the time in my experience.

[M@verik115]

Are IG really overpowered though? 
Im yet to play my first 8th ed game with mine, but skimming the index, the only thing that really stood out were conscripts and that would be an easy points fix when the codex is released. 

[NatBrannigan]

Funny isn't it?

 

I've not lost a game yet with Guard but I've had a lot of luck on my side so far and haven't come up against any nasty armies. Just people who want to have fun (the horror!) Haven't used any Conscripts or more than 15 Scions (only 2 Plasma guns) in a game or anything. I've only won a couple of those games because the objectives were of random values and I happened to have the better ones. No way do I think we're overpowered. I think in 7th we used pretty balanced lists and did poorly. In 8th we're using those same lists and doing well. It's that simple! When people get it into their heads that "Deathstars" and the like don't really cut it any more they'll start to do better.

 

In fact having a beer after a game the other day someone commented that my Guard were overpowered and there was a literal spit take... It's hardly my fault that your Wave serpents full of Wraith Guard are actually vulnerable to weapons this edition...

 

On a related note seeing a Hydra shred a unit of Eldar Jetbikes is on par with that first sip of fine Single Malt. Ooooh Yeah.

[Halfpint100]

I have played 3 games and only won one. Granted the first one was sooooo close (relic and his warlord had in it 1w left with mine in CC with him). Second he won on objectives but i still had 25% of my army and he had one badly wounded helldrake (before FAQ released) and the third was against blood angles elites and weight of firepower took him down. 

 

The thing which works well with guard is cheap synergy. everything is cheap so you can take loads of it, but squads often need support from commissars, officers, priests or psykers to work their best. Guard players have often had to combine units close to each other in order to get them to work well. Now we are being rewarded by doing what we have done through 6th and 7th. Our fragile 3w t3 characters are what makes our units strong. 

 

I almost feel like guard can do so many things that opponents just don't know what to expect and they do not like it. Horde armies are now back and viable as opposed to the elite squads of the past. It will take some change of tactics (most armies against guard will soon be taking a sniper squad i imagine). 

 

If an opponent has good target priority, they can beat guard. I imagine it must be overwhelming sometimes the sheer volume of dudes we can bring to the table. 

[M@verik115]

What I also find is that 8th is the most tactical edition ever. With stratagems and their employment being key in whether you win or lose a game. 
Other armies never had to worry about tactics and it was simply just list building and target prioritizing, but guard had to do this from the start. 
Back in the day guard rewarded tactical play and if you didn't know what you were doing, you would crash and burn. 
I would go so far to say that in 3rd and 4th guard were by far the most difficult army to play, but also the most rewarding when you got it right. 

[HenricusTyranicus]

Well I'd say a couple things. One, I played heavy conscript lists through all of 7th. Rarely had under 100 guardsmen in a guard list. Now that hordes are really really good, what am I supposed to do? Find a new army? I'm a college student, I don't have the ability to collect a new army in any timely manner.  Besides, I spent years building this army, and I'm pretty attached to it, thank you very much. That being said, I do get that my army is very powerful all of a sudden. I don't think it's JUST guard players being more tactical though. Our basic troop choice got 20% cheaper, while boltguns and their equivalents got 33% less effective against us, while our lasguns put 33% more shots at close range, while they got 100% stronger against T5 targets. That's a lot of very favorable percents. To say nothing of how much deadlier things like heavy bolters got against marines, how much less effective flamers and blasts are against us, etc, etc. With that fundamental math worked into the game, infantry spam is always going to be pretty good. 

 

So what I'd say is play, have fun, but don't feel obliged to utterly smash your opponents. Let them proxy stuff, give them a points handicap, whatever you need to to ensure a fun game for all.

 

I imagine as more and more codices come out, that the meta will be ever changing. Ride along for now, and see how it plays out. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I would go so far to say that in 3rd and 4th guard were by far the most difficult army to play, but also the most rewarding when you got it right. 

 

Dark Eldar.

[M@verik115]

 

I would go so far to say that in 3rd and 4th guard were by far the most difficult army to play, but also the most rewarding when you got it right. 

 

Dark Eldar.

 

I forgot about those emo xenos. 

Everyone forgets about them. 

Nobody loves them.

[Truesight]

Not to do heretics job for them, but as a thought experiment what do you not want to see on the opposite side of the field?

 

For me it's a few things.  

-Rhino rush berserkers (or equivalent)

 

-Snipers

 

-Genestealers

 

-Psychic powers that allow targeting of models/units (Grey Knights, Inquisitors, Orks etc)  can nuke our characters fast

 

-Fire Warriors, Tau haven't discovered these yet but 40 firewarriors with Ethereal, Fireblade and Pulse accelerator drone put out 160 s5 shots for 400 points.  
(Keep spamming suits Tau :D)

Edited August 4, 2017 by Truesight

[M@verik115]

Not to do heretics job for them, but as a thought experiment what do you not want to see on the opposite side of the field?

 

For me it's a few things.  

-Rhino rush berserkers (or equivalent)

 

-Snipers

 

-Genestealers

 

-Psychic powers that allow targeting of models/units (Grey Knights, Inquisitors, Orks etc)  can nuke our characters fast

Invisible knights. 

[NatBrannigan]

Knights, Tyranids or filthy traitors, all crumble when up against disciplined volley fire!

 

Having said that, I was scared of deep striking until I realised just how easy it is to keep them away from my lines. I've had some trouble with Tactical Terminators and their storm bolters shredding through my Infantry but since they're never going to make their points back that way I'll get over it.

 

Plentiful and fast moving Assault units are the thing that have caused me the most trouble. With the Marine Codex out and the Traitor one on the way they're only going to get better. Khorne units piling in and attacking three times a turn is going to be horrific... Frankly that should be horrific so looking forward to facing off against them :)

 

It's important to move forward with your infantry not just to claim objectives, but to give you some space to operate in. Get two lines set up a decent way apart. Give yourself room to retreat. If you just line up at the back of the board and shoot, you're toast.

 

Our Index list is good, I suspect as codices are released we'll drop down the scale of power again and soon be forgotten about. And that's jus the way I like it.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I made a BT list this morning that kinda is the epitome of what would terrify me on the other side of the field. List had 5 hurricane bolters, 5 assault cannons, tons of assaulty elements and storm bolters, 2 multi meltas, and Helbrecht and Grimaldus. Every unit was hiding in teleportation, or inside transports. A tank heavy guard list could probably mess that up, but it'd do awful things to hordes.

[TheShredder]

I think IG have a few units that are a bit too good - most notably Conscripts and Plasma-Scions. However, I don't think that either of these are anywhere near as OP as many claim and that the drastic solutions they propose are completely unnecessary. 

That aside, I think one of the best things for IG is that 'basic' weapons are now really good. No longer is Grav orders of magnitude better than plasma. No longer are Lascannons woefully inept compared to the many D-weapons touted in 7th. No longer are Heavy Bolters worthless when compared with Scatter Lasers. What's more, lasguns can actually hurt things now - as opposed to being useless against about 90% of targets in 7th (and still woefully ineffective - even en masse - against the remaining 10%).

What's more, the changes to blasts and templates have finally made Infantry Guard viable again. No longer can dreadknights or Windrunners casually delete whole platoons. No longer can our commanders be sniped with ease by any weapon. And, as above, their plasmaguns, lascannons and even lasguns are actually a credible threat for the first time in about 3 editions. 

 

Whilst I think we do now have a few units that are a bit too good, I can't help feeling that a lot of people are just annoyed that they can't wipe the floor with us anymore. Suddenly, those lascannons and plasma shots aren't just bouncing harmlessly off Wraithknights - they're actually doing serious damage. Suddenly, those dreadknights aren't obliterating their own points in guardsmen each turn. Suddenly, they might have to actually include weapons specially to deal with massed infantry - instead of being able to sweep handfuls of them off the table with basically anything. They might even have to - God forbid - break out some actual tactics against IG.

Anyway, there may be a sort-of issue on the part of IG players in that many of us have spent 2 editions basically trying to scrape every advantage we could get from our army. If we want to make things more fun for our opponents, this is probably the best edition in a while to have some fun and 'waste' some points on fluffy (but less effective) gear and units. 

 

 

 

I would go so far to say that in 3rd and 4th guard were by far the most difficult army to play, but also the most rewarding when you got it right. 

 

Dark Eldar.

 

I forgot about those emo xenos. 
Everyone forgets about them. 
Nobody loves them.

 

 

Least of all GW. 

[Altasmurf]

I don't think guard are OP as items were in 7th, but scions and conscripts are deffinatly top dog which makes it a target. Scion provide such a cheap special (especially plasma) weapons delivery, and conscripts being a blob are a cheap,morale immune force multipler both go long way to shore up any guard list. And because both are so cheap you can still build whatever you want into your list. I've always loved infantry so I use lots of infantry squads (1 squad per 200 points) so if i teplaced even half with conacripya i could see how that would increase the potency of my army.

[Withershadow]

Increase plasma guns from 7 to 10, increase Scion cost by a point or two per model, make Conscripts a 0-1 choice = all complaints addressed?

[Die4Emprah]

 

Not to do heretics job for them, but as a thought experiment what do you not want to see on the opposite side of the field?

 

For me it's a few things.  

-Rhino rush berserkers (or equivalent)

 

-Snipers

 

-Genestealers

 

-Psychic powers that allow targeting of models/units (Grey Knights, Inquisitors, Orks etc)  can nuke our characters fast

Invisible knights. 

 

I make knights disappear. Lascannon fire does that ;)

 

 

Now to the OP-ness:

This edition has been fairly generous to the Guard. I play DKoK, I also play Conscript Astro-Mil. The reason I started playing guard, and will continue to play them is because I like making my opponents kill 150 men, and they're still outnumbered. Yeah, it got a little easier, but I was going to do that anyway.  I don't intend on changing my game too much because we were thrown a bone. Every so often it happens to one faction or the other.  

 

To the whining (an anecdote):

Most groups encounter salt. Sometimes it comes in waves, sometimes it's chronic. I stated before that I run conscripts when I play Astro-Mil, 150 of them per game. I had a player become upset when I was meatshielding rather effectively.  I said to him:

"I planned this out, and I'm doing this strategically. Would you like me to play my army against you inefficiently, so you can win easier? I'll do that for you, if you really want."  

He realized that he didn't want to play an opponent that was using kid gloves. I know that I wouldn't want to. (He actually won the match, anyhow ;) )

 

So things to say to people whining:

What would you like me to use against you next time?  You buy it and paint it, I'll use it.

Would you like me to handicap myself somehow so that you're having more fun? 

etc

 

[Mitchverr]

Increase plasma guns from 7 to 10, increase Scion cost by a point or two per model, make Conscripts a 0-1 choice = all complaints addressed?

 

I would say it depends on which guard on the plasma myself, some guard is expencive enough that the plasma being 7 is okay i would say :) (eg elysian or krieg)

 

Rest of it, yeah, would make some sense, the scions do seem cheap, especially compared to other "specialist troops" across the guard dex's (same price as grenadiers for example)

[Beams]

I feel like people this edition are building lists to hunt tanks or other elite units.

 

So when they bring a "monster Hunter" list, and the opponent brings a horde army, they don't know how to react and fail, and then complain that guard is overpowered.

 

I've played against guard with a variety of sisters lists and never felt that guard was more powerful than me.

 

Between my massed flamethrowers, Repressor transports, Melta Maidens and Arcos/Repentia I'd say, at the very least, Guard and A.S. are equal.

[Altasmurf]

That's the thing, horde do well vs elite. They can struggle vs. Someone like sisters who have a mix of numbers and kill ability. And since most people are still in 7th they're not sure how to deal with hordes. However the morale mitigation that all horde armies (orks, tyranids, guard) get is a little to powerful. Morale should be a weakness.

[Beams]

I mean, you kill the Commisars's and guard starts failing morale like crazy.

 

A few snipers and your set?

 

I mean, Sisters aren't that much cheaper then basic Marines, and Marines have way more options, so I can't imagine they'd struggle too much.

 

I think the key is to not go too heavy on the elite side. Like, of your playing Grey Knights, take some strike squads and interceptors instead of all paladins.

[Halfpint100]

I mean, you kill the Commisars's and guard starts failing morale like crazy.

 

This is literally the answer to conscript hordes

[HenricusTyranicus]

I don't think you even need snipers tbh. A well positioned flyer can make a commissar the closest enemy model turn one, then fill them with lead. Jump pack units and landspeeders can work to a similar effect. Snipers are the most efficient way to do it though.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I don't think you even need snipers tbh. A well positioned flyer can make a commissar the closest enemy model turn one, then fill them with lead. Jump pack units and landspeeders can work to a similar effect. Snipers are the most efficient way to do it though.

If that has happened then the Guard player's positioning skills need some refinement. With the number of bodies the Guard can put on the field, the support characters should always be safe from the closest model rule. I have used jump pack units to make that work though by jumping over intervening units and killing the supports. The smaller base size makes it easier to pull off than with an aircraft.

[Altasmurf]

I mean, you kill the Commisars's and guard starts failing morale like crazy.

 

A few snipers and your set?

 

I mean, Sisters aren't that much cheaper then basic Marines, and Marines have way more options, so I can't imagine they'd struggle too much.

 

I think the key is to not go too heavy on the elite side. Like, of your playing Grey Knights, take some strike squads and interceptors instead of all paladins.

The note about marines having more toys is exactly the thing. A streamlined marine army will give guard a headache. Snipers however are the answer if the guard player is bad at positioning. It's not hard to hide a commie, and even spreading out models to prevent backline fliers and assault marines can be done. But I agree these are the tools you need to give guard fits.

[criddopher]

dude a played someone the other day with my krieg, i lost, and still the entire game it was whining about how guard are broken. Dude was just picking on me but still i was like golly gee first all im krieg, they are much different. and second im :cussing losing!