Defenders of Humanity and the Stubbornness of Dorn

[Marshal Arthur]

So I've been seeing a lot of complaints about our lot in this codex followed by well written responses that put our rules and tactics in a more positive light. Most of it has focused on our place as attritional fighters rather than the rapid assault specialists among our brother Blood Angels and the bloodthirsty berzerkers of the traitor legions. It all got me thinking about one our more powerful rules in the new codex, Defenders of Humanity. How do you guys plan on taking advantage of this rule with our crusader squads who are, arguably, the strongest troop choice in the codex. I figure a combination of aggressive alpha strikes, distract the opponent and force him/her on the backfoot, and rapid advancing of our crusader squads to key objectives could be a powerful means of board control. Our deepstrikes don't have to wipe the enemy army, only occupy them and force them to engage instead of securing objectives while our crusaders and scouts dig in. And then, just as the enemy breaks through our deep strike assault they're hit with a second wave of assaults coming from dedicated close combat units and their transports. I'm not sure how it'll play out but I like to think while this won't be the killiest or most conservative strategy it could buy enough time to hold the objectives by end game. What are your thoughts on this rule and how we can use it with our crusaders to play the long game as our Primarch did?

[Blender]

I have not play tested this idea yet but I plan to have some assault squads/vanguards tie up enemy back line (assuming I can deep strike safely, if they did not spread out their horde armies to cover their back line). Since I have some landspeeders with melta's I plan to deep strike em in too, to weaken tanks/monsters/tough squads. 

 

The main bulk of my force will either run up the field, ride in rhinos/razorbacks/stormraven/land raiders or deepstrike in drop pods. And abuse our chapter tactic of charging. Once everybody is in close combat, everyone's happy (mainly the templars haha)! I made the mistake of using a gunline army against nurgle, so they tanked all my gunfire and wrecked me. So this time I'll try going into close combat against them and punch them in the kidneys with powerfists, thunder hammers. Have some plasma here and there.

 

I plan for my army to be adaptable. They will be fast, precise, and able to react to ongoing threats, changes in the field, and what casualties they have suffered. 

 

I also want to also use some whirl winds/ thunderfire cannons/ kill shot strategem with predators/ and maybe vindicator line breaker strategem as fire support. 

[Kisada]

Unfortnately landspeeders do not deep strike anymore.

[Gerhard]

I really like our tactics. A lot actually.

 

What I've been succesfull with so far is Deepstrikes, which makes sense since its pretty much made for us with our current tactics. I usually deploy small Crusader Squads to secure objectives and/or charge forward. Supported by whatever heavy support fits the opponent I'm playing.

 

On turn one (obviously depending on whats on the board) or turn two I deepstrike 10 Vanguard and/or 5 Assault Terminators to kill whatever scares me. Vanguard loadout I'm currently trying out so that squad isn't final yet. What I have found is that it needs to specialize to be effective: so either full Hammer/Shield combo or full Chainswords/Plasma combo. Combinations of random Weapons aren't doing it for me.

 

What is the most awesome is the wide range of options our Crusader Squads have as you already mentioned. The moment you have something of everything available you can field depending on your enemy, it's an automatic edge.

 

Though, I have to be honest, I'm starting to use more and more Primaris units and less and less Crusaders. For example, a 10 man strong Reiver unit is now part of my default army if I intend to go for Close Combat, and my Heavy support by default has a Hellblaster Squad.

[Ciler]

Hammer is awefully expensive though. Wouldn't axes do the job equally or do you find you need the 3 dmg ?

[Marshal Arthur]

I mostly play against death guard and against disgustingly resilient the three damage is wonderful. Of course my opponent got some really lucky dice rolls the last couple times I played him (I counted, he made roughly %50 of his disgustingly resilient saves). I plan on adding Reivers and have considered adding Hellblasters since I'm lacking anti-armor and like infantry. Have you found the Hellblasters effective or should I just get some devastators or a predator? I think another key advantage our crusaders have his insecurity with defenders of humanity. Being to control an objective till they're destroyed is useful against our more numerous enemies, and combined with our versatile loadouts we can still dish out some respectable fire to support our more dedicated anti-armor and anti-infantry units.

[Firepower]

Deep striking nasty melee units and marching Crusaders was my preferred set up in 7th.  It's not exactly so easy anymore, mainly because it counted on a double Ironclad turn 1 Drop Pod attack.  Even though you can take FW Pods on Dreads, they still cost an arm and a leg.

 

New pricing has been rather rough all around, really.  

 

But in many respect, Templars have always been an attrition melee centric army.  In that vein, 2 LRC's carrying 2 big Crusader Squads is about as resilient as you can manage (well, Storm Ravens too, but less capacity and less thematic).  I think I'll try building a list around that.  The 2 LRCs, and deep striking/pod scary units.  Let them and the LRC's widdle down the forces before sending in the Crusader Squads for the kill, or hunkering them down on objectives.

[Golf33]

Whittle. Not widdle. That would be... something awful.

[Schlitzaf]

When in the world did this forum start agreeing with me on that Templars are an attrition based melee army? Not that I mind at all but when did this happen

[Firepower]

Whittle. Not widdle. That would be... something awful.

 

Yeah, I tried spelling it 4 different ways, couldn't remember the right one

 

 

When in the world did this forum start agreeing with me on that Templars are an attrition based melee army? Not that I mind at all but when did this happen

 

They always were, but they were also much stronger in melee in the glory days.  Righteous Zeal was definitively a matter of attrition.  'We're gonna throw a ton of bodies at you, and if we make it in arms reach with enough people still alive, we win.'  Simply getting into arms reach is no longer nearly enough though, so...yeah.

 

Not remotely interested in turning another thread into 'We used to be great and now we're not damn you all GW!!!' mind you, just pointing out the history of attrition in the army and how it worked, versus how it works now.  Which is mainly a matter of hiding in big, shooty boxes, and staying alive long enough that our melee units can handle what's left.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Firepower

[Golf33]

I seem to remember one of our old books describing our preferred forms of war as the orbital assault and the mechanised sledgehammer? Certainly seems to be how things are shaking out now. Edited August 5, 2017 by Golf33

[Acebaur]

Just an FYI I looks like everyone is getting obsec for their troops. Both GK and CSM are getting it. 

[Marshal Arthur]

Just an FYI I looks like everyone is getting obsec for their troops. Both GK and CSM are getting it. 

So long as it only applies to marine models it shouldn't be too big a deal. If literally every army gets it then that sucks but at the same time at least it means a five man crusader squad can still contest an objective held by 40 conscripts.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Or 20-30 choppas or 20 necron warriors.

 

On the business side they want people to buy troops choices:)

Edited August 5, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Ciler]

I actually hope every army gets it, then we're essentially back to square one balance-wise, but with a somewhat more "realistic" approach where having a drop pod on an objective isn't quite the same as having actual soldiers on it.

[Firepower]

If every army gets it then why not just put it in the BRB, though?

[Ciler]

If every army gets it then why not just put it in the BRB, though?

A very valid point. Maybe not everyone will get it.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I think, that only imperium or chaos will get it. As far as I know this edition is mainly Imperium vs chaos and other factions are just background. So I won't be suprised if just chaos and Imperium will get it.