Whole NDK army - Pointless...

[Gentlemanloser]

So with the new GM NDK, the WD twlls us we can now field an entire army of just NDK.

 

Great!

 

Except it's really pointless to do so.

 

They have a massive glaring weakness.

 

Your entire army would be unable to asault anyone on the upper level of ruins.

 

Your opponent can stick shoot units in ruins safe in the knowledge that cover negates our only -1AP shooting. And they're safe from the NDK better melee capabilities.

 

/sigh

[Strykaar]

With righ positioning they are even immune against close combat from other infantry... this doesnt feel right :/

 

All in all a 100% NDK army would be very bad, there is too much with multiple damage this Edition, so the enemy is happy for each multiple wound target most times.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah if you can't fit up there, you can't be within 1" and the charge fails.

 

They could be assaulted by flyers though. Get your stormravens to ram them!

 

It's something GW need to rethink.

[Sothalor]

Wait wait... so stuff inside ruins cannot be assaulted by Dreadknights, but *can* be rammed by Stormravens?

 

That's some... hilarious mental imagery there.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just checked. Ravens aren't allowed to charge.

 

 

Hmm. They might be, if they hover.

 

 

Yup, hilarious!

 

If a raven hovers it loses 'airborne' so loses the can't charge rule. But retains the fly keyword.

 

So can assault infantry in upper level ruins.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Valerian]

Is there a point to this thread other than to whine about certain models not being able to climb levels in ruins in this edition?  If not, then you've registered your complaint, and the thread should probably die out.

[Gentlemanloser]

Whining?

 

Sorry i thought this was a legitimate issue.

 

Feel free to lock the thread if you wish val.

[TheMostGood]

I think it is assumed that if the model has height, it can reach units in ruins. 

[Kruso]

I think it is assumed that if the model has height, it can reach units in ruins. 

 

It's not sadly. Distances are measured from base to base. Even Imperial Knight has no business hitting infantry on second floor. Neither does Stormraven.

[Gentlemanloser]

Stormravens can as they have the fly keyword.

 

Airbourne disallows them the ability to charge.

 

Hovering loses the airbourne rule.

[Happy-inquisitor]

So with the new GM NDK, the WD twlls us we can now field an entire army of just NDK.

 

Great!

 

Except it's really pointless to do so.

 

They have a massive glaring weakness.

 

Your entire army would be unable to asault anyone on the upper level of ruins.

 

Your opponent can stick shoot units in ruins safe in the knowledge that cover negates our only -1AP shooting. And they're safe from the NDK better melee capabilities.

 

/sigh

 

Last time I checked the NDK could still take shooting weapons. Nothing to stop you shooting the infantry in ruins, spamming Smite at them and then charging whatever is at ground level.

 

Might not win you the LVO but...

 

Any spam army will tend to have some sort of weakness, that element of rock-paper-scissors usually goes with the spam concept.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Valerian
Edited out personal jab at fellow Frater.

[Gentlemanloser]

And the best AP they have is -1. Which is countered by the +1 from being in cover (yeah we now get astral aim back)

 

Even the heavy incinerator doesn't ignore cover any more.

 

Edit. And thanks for the dig happy.

 

If you must know, i have time to complain on the Internet becuase I'm signed off work recovering from a bowel cancer operation, and waiting for my chemo appointment to be arranged.

 

But luckily i haven't nor do i intend to take part in any tournaments.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Plasmablasts]

You have my sympathy and my best wishes.

[Brother Tyler]

An all-NDK army is only pointless when you're playing in a game where you want maximum efficiency/effectiveness (i.e., competitiveness is important).

 

Sometimes, though, players play games for fun. Someone playing an all-NDK army is forging a narrative (or maybe they just love the concept and look of an all-NDK force). Maybe a scenario is envisioned in which a force of NDKs is cut off from the rest of the GK forces and they have to fight through. Or maybe the rest of the GK force has been wiped out and only the NDKs survive.

 

Or maybe the GK player just wants to play out the equivalent of an all mecha battle for gits and shiggles.

 

An interesting concept to consider is that war isn't fair. In real life, one side is sub-optimal with regard to composition or tactical situation, but they still have to do their best to survive. It's a long honored tradition within the wargaming hobby to represent such battles (countless wargaming reenactments of the Alamo, Thermopylae, and Rorke's Drift spring to mind, along with countless other "last stand" scenarios). WH40K isn't so different from other wargames that such scenarios should be unthinkable on the tabletop. In fact, a lot of players would benefit from switching gears into asymmetrical and/or sub-optimal forces on the tabletop.

 

Perhaps instead of the Negative Nancy approach that this topic started off with, the discussion should steer around to a constructive analysis of how players might overcome the many weaknesses of the all-NDK army, both in terms of composition, tactical employment, and use of the terrain, in order to prevail upon the tabletop.

 

 

And for the record, no one is in a situation where they "have to" complain on the Internet (no matter how crappy of a real world situation they might be in, and the one GML described sounds pretty crappy and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, be that as it may...). Complaining is a choice. As the saying goes, complaining without proposing a solution is whining. The B&C is here for constructive discussion to help others enjoy the hobby, not whining. It's in the forum rules, and has been for years (along with the consequences for those that don't want to abide by those rules).

[Godeskian]

I'd also point out that outside of tournaments, rule zero exists for a reason. My local GW store, manager included, recently decided it was an impractical rule and houseruled that if you can fit the Base on the ruin, you can assault as it was judged ludicrous that an 11 Carnifex army with no ranged weapons would stand around like idiots getting shot to death instead of knocking the ruins down. Edited August 9, 2017 by Godeskian

[Extropian]

I'd also point out that outside of tournaments, rule zero exists for a reason. My local GW store, manager included, recently decided it was an impractical rule and houseruled that if you can fit the Base on the ruin, you can assault as it was judged ludicrous that an 11 Carnifex army with no ranged weapons would stand around like idiots getting shot to death instead of knocking the ruins down.

 

Basically this. A little common sense goes a long way. Games are supposed to be fun....

[Seizeman]

I'd also point out that outside of tournaments, rule zero exists for a reason. My local GW store, manager included, recently decided it was an impractical rule and houseruled that if you can fit the Base on the ruin, you can assault as it was judged ludicrous that an 11 Carnifex army with no ranged weapons would stand around like idiots getting shot to death instead of knocking the ruins down.

The problem is, when you start to modify rules not because of balance but because it favours you or simply don't like it, it opens the gates for everyone to do the same, and becomes unhealthy pretty fast.

 

If you want to justify it because of realism, you should not, this is a game, not a simulation. It is unrealistic that artillery weapons can shoot at all because of friendly fire, or that bolters have a 24" range when realistically they should be able to reach the whole board, but noone complains about it.

[Gentlemanloser]

House rules are great. We do it all the time (you should see how we play VtM. It's basically a new ruleset after 20 years of tweaks).

 

But i stear clear of discussing house rules with others, as it causes confusion ( what do you mean gangrel aren't combat monsters? Oh you let Fortitude soak agg damage from thier claws...) unless the discussion is about house rules specifically.

 

If i were to house rule this problem, off the top of my head i'd propose three suggestions.

 

1. Add the walker keyword to some vehicles. Letting them climb ruins like infantry.

 

2. Base vertical assault range off a minis height.

 

3. Add rules to target, destroy and remove ruins.

 

But as it stands, even for fun narrative games, armies ( and long time members should know i *love* an all ndk list. I had a themed govanan bors list in the army list section pre 8th) like pure ndk or dread are useless.

 

When your opponent can stick devs / reapers or other hard hitting shooty units and become immune to all melee.

 

With nothing the other player can do about it.

 

This isn't tactical. It's not even a hard counter. It's a flaw with the game system that gives too much of a benefit. Even los for shooting can be worked around.

 

House rules are great, but i don't expect everyone will like or want to play by any i suggest, so i prefer sticking to common ground which is the RAW.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Godeskian]

I was not anticipating quite so vehement a reaction to the idea if houseruling issues, but it's a topic I'd like to explore further. Seizeman, Gentlemanloser, would either of you mind if I quote you in a new topic specifically about this as it's pulling the thread off topic

[Blakklist]

What is absurd to me is that people will be negative in one thread about something and then go into all the other threads and repost the same negative stuff. Most of the time the negativity isnt really warranted either. Most who are negative are posing problems that would make our army OP if fixed, for example the rule of one. The weapons, our incinerator and it's heavy variant is much better then the flamers, psilencers are usable and cheap with an upside of wounding for a possible 3 wounds each. Psycannon lost its gusto it had last edition, not a bad thing, but by no means is it broken or unusable.

 

Point values are high but for instance I played a game against an orc army and I could only field 11 models and fielded around 100. I lost 4 models that game and tables him by turn 4. It sucks we can't field many models but it makes sense as to why. I'm not willing to buy and paint that many NDK's to field the army but it would be cool to see. With our psychic powers dealing with the issue pointed out above (campers in ruins), we can deal with that easily. What maybe one squad, possibly 2 if the ruins are big enough. Smite alone would wipe 75% of that squad not to mention the multiple mortal wound powers we have that would ensure they are all wiped.

 

The way I feel going into any game is that I'm at an automatic disadvantage because their models out number mine 4 to 1 most of the time. I love a challenge, and really it's not even a challenge. I feel bad taking GK some times because I knows it's possible and likely for me to alpha strike and kill half their army off the bat (I don't have any other army so oh well). If we are all honest there are negatives to every Army. Working around them is where the fun comes in.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Blakklist

[Gentlemanloser]

Feel free Godeskian. :)

[Seizeman]

VtM is a whole different thing. The most important aspect is the narrative one, and the rules must be a useful complement to it and not the core of the game. Besides, the original VtM action rules are beyond awful.

 

In 40k, at least the base game, is about tactics and strategy, and the narrative aspect is secondary. In fact, you can ignore it if you want. Of course you can take the gameplay of 40k and use it for a narrative campaing, but at this point it's a whole different game. In this case, there's no point in discussing balance, because there's no "suboptimal choices" or "pointless armies". In fact, the changes you make can't even be considered "house rules" at this point.

 

About monsters being unable to charge units on top levels, the only complain is "my unit is not as good as I would like it to be, so I want to bend the rules in my favour". This is not a balance issue at all.

 

And of course it is tactical. Ranged units can't attack units without line of sight, does that mean hiding behind cover is not tactical? Airborne units can't be charged by ground troops, should we get rid of that too? If a unit is on the second floor covering all the space (which is really difficult, you must fit all the models in the unit and those must cover precisely the whole surface), you must find a course of action to counter it, like shooting them, using flyers or play objectives so their popssition and unability to move becomes a disadvantage.

 

Even if it was a problem, the possible solutions are worse. Distance rules that take into consideration the model are always bad, as they encourage modelling for advantage and discourage modelling for coolness. Letting the mosters to "be on the top floor" even if they phisically aren't is also really problematic and requires a rules section of its own. Destructable terrain is even worse, as it creates problems with the scenery model itself and require complex rules and too much micromanaging.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Seizeman

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh i don't disagree about narrative games. I've always suggested Deathwatch / Inquisitor (with minis!) As a better avenue for 40k narratives.

 

But i disagree with the rest. Its not about my units aren't good enough. Although assaulting flyers is a strong point i can't counter.

 

LoS has things like astral aim to counter now.

 

But i suppose the arguement is units with the fly keyword can assault flyers, infantry units can assault upper levels of ruins.

 

I think my largest gripe is GW pushing pure ndk armies.

 

Which is a trap.

 

It would be a shame for someone who loved the theme of a pure ndk army to go out and do so based on what GW print, then find out the army is flawed as thier opponents use ruins to, ruin them.

 

(That's not a personal thing! I still only have my 2 ndk!)

Edited August 9, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Seizeman]

"Most excitingly, you'll be able to field an entire army of nothing but dreadknights"

 

That's the only thing GW has said about NDKs on the new codex, so they are hardly "pushing" full ndk armies. They did not say it is good or competitive, they just said it is possible and exciting (and it is kind of exciting, at least to some).

 

As you said, LoS has counters like astral aim or weapons that don't need line of sight. Units on the upper levels of ruins also have counters, and the best of them is called shooting, which every army has access to.

 

If somenone not only builds a full NDK army but also does not give them ranged weapons... well, yes, they have a problem with units on ruins, I guess.

[Frater Cornelius]

Wait wait... so stuff inside ruins cannot be assaulted by Dreadknights, but *can* be rammed by Stormravens?

 

That's some... hilarious mental imagery there.

 

Want even more? You can charge one with a Repulsor, since it has Fly :D

 

A full NDK is pointless-ish, because your scoring power is fairly low, you are skipping out on potential relics and stratagems, and less Smites overall. The melee in buildings is a non-issue against those.