Starting 40k 500pt DKOK Army

[DieReichsfurher]

Hello everyone! I've been watching 40k army building and batreps for quite a long time now, and have really wanted to start an army of my own. Of course, when looking around to see which army I wanted to start with, I drifted from IG, to Tau, to Space Marines, and finally, I saw a video on the DKOK. I have now become completely obsessed, unfortunately for me seeing the price of these models .

Now before I begin I will warn you,

A: I know next to nothing on the actual rules of 40k, but really want to learn.

B: After searching around, this (http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/pdfs/netea-imperial-guard-death-korps-of-krieg-2017-01-10.pdf) was the only official-ish looking list I could find for the DKOK, which is what i'm basing this inaugural list on.

 

So let's begin!

 

First off, a Commisar (Apparently is free every 500pts?)

 

Then an Infantry Company with 1 Commander and 19 Infantry Units(I assume Grenadiers)

 

Finally, a Light Support Battery with 4 Quad Launchers, and 4 centaurs/some Trenches (Haven't made up my mind yet on if mobility or defense is better)

 

And from that list i found that should be 500 points. I think this list is probably garbage, but that why im here looking for help. Constructive criticism welcome. (And frankly needed) Thanks in advance!

Edited August 5, 2017 by DieReichsfurher

[Truesight]

Ok first up, before you go buying any models buy the rules.

 

You'll need the Core Rulebook and Imperial Armour: Forces of the Astra Militarum for the Kriegers.

 

As far as I can tell those rules you listed are for 40k Epic games, they aren't related at all to the normal 40k rules, don't use them to base a list around.

 

I'll PM you something to get you started.


For 500 points keep it nice and simple, have lots of different units and give yourself a force that will be useful to build on.

 

Death Korps Marshall 37

 

2x Platoon, plasma gun, plasma pistol,  62

 

10 Krieg Engineers Heavy Flamer, 2 Melta, Demo Charge,=126

Storm Chimera 103

 

5 Death Riders -80

 

Earth Shaker Carriage Battery -91

499.

Something to get you started anyway.

[Withershadow]

Yes, please buy the rules before spending money.

 

You linked rules for a completely different game.

 

In the above list, I would not recommend a heavy flamer on engineers because A: they don't make that model, and B: two shotguns are infinitely better than a heavy flamer, especially at 15 points less.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[Truesight]

In the above list, I would not recommend a heavy flamer on engineers because A: they don't make that model, and B: two shotguns are infinitely better than a heavy flamer, especially at 15 points less.

I just use the Grenadier Heavy Flamer team, they are heavily armoured and look great.

Kriegers don't give up shotguns for the flamer, they shoot both 

[Withershadow]

I would argue that, even though I thought the same initally... the rules say they form a heavy weapon team armed with X heavy weapon, not anything else.  They become a new type of model with a different profile, so I don't know why they would retain previous equipment. 

 

The mole mortar models do not come with shotguns, so it'd be weird for heavy flamers to suddenly get them.

[Truesight]

I would argue that, even though I thought the same initally... the rules say they form a heavy weapon team armed with X heavy weapon, not anything else.  They become a new type of model with a different profile, so I don't know why they would retain previous equipment. 

 

The mole mortar models do not come with shotguns, so it'd be weird for heavy flamers to suddenly get them.

That's fine, but it's not the rules.  Weapons are replaced when the index says they are, like for all other entries.  Same with Mole Launchers, same with AM heavy weapon teams and their lasguns in infantry platoons.

[Withershadow]

Actually, no. The Guard codex specifically says each heavy weapon team model has *1* lasgun and must take a heavy weapon.  The loader shoots his lasgun.  So it would make sense to keep one shotgun for a heavy flamer team, I guess, but per the rules those two models form a completely different model that is only armed with a heavy weapon.  That IS in the rules.

[Truesight]

Death Korps Heavy Weapon Squad: each model is armed with Lasguns frag and krak

Death Korps Engineer Weapons team (different team again as it has 4+ save, because they are engineers...) is armed with:  Krieg Shotguns frag krak and acid gas bombs

 

The idea that it is a different model with only a heavy weapon is not listed anywhere, doesn't follow the RAW ( form team with heavy flamer, not replace weapons as per other weapons) or even other heavy weapon teams.

 

Not sure where you got the idea from but it isn't backed by anything.

[Withershadow]

Is that from the FAQ?

 

Yes, lasguns, but how many lasguns? Infinite lasguns?  A heavy weapon team is a single model, so logic dictates it gets one lasgun, just like regular Guard heavy weapon teams.  Same goes for shotguns.  This is just more example of FW sloppyness.  It's one model, and it gets "shotguns".  How many shotguns?  As many as you want to pay points for?  One shotgun does make sense, as I said above, one guy is firing the heavy weapon, the other guy is firing the regular weapon, but if you're trying to say you can buy 50 shotguns to be fired by a single model, that makes no sense.

[Truesight]

For illustration lets build a Krieg Heavy Weapons team.   They can take Heavy flamers so the comparison is exact.

 

A Death Korps Heavy Weapons Team costs 5 points ie a krieg infantry man.

 

Each Model has a 5+ save, 4+ to hit, lasguns, heavy flamer, frag and krak grenades (same as an infantry squad)

 

A Death Korps Engineer Weapons Team that  pays for Combat Engineer prices has:

 

4+ save, 3+ to hit, ????????, Heavy Flamer, Frag, Krak and ??????

 

Engineers can't take lasguns, so if those aren't Krieg Combat Shotguns and Acid bombs it doesn't make sense.

[Withershadow]

The issue is the GW book correctly uses Lasgun (singular).  The FW FAQ states Shotguns (plural).  How many shotguns when a heavy weapon team counts as one model?  I didn't see the exact wording of the FAQ entry for heavy flamers until now, so my previous understanding of 0 shotguns for an Engineer heavy weapon team was based on the index entry.

 

So I stand corrected on that, and I can understand how an Engineer heavy weapon team would have a single shotgun (i.e. ignore the pluralization of the word as a typo).  It makes sense both on the basis of consistency (a more reliable/less error-ridden source (GW book) that has each heavy weapon team armed with a single anti-personnel weapon), and from a logic point of view (one guy fires the heavy weapon, his support buddy fires the anti-personel weapon).  If you discard both convention and logic, then the door opens to infinite shotguns.  A heavy weapon may have multiple guys on it, but it's still a single model.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[Truesight]

The issue is the GW book correctly uses Lasgun (singular).  The FW FAQ states Shotguns (plural).  How many shotguns when a heavy weapon team counts as one model?  I didn't see the exact wording of the FAQ entry for heavy flamers until now, so my previous understanding of 0 shotguns for an Engineer heavy weapon team was based on the index entry.

 

So I stand corrected on that, and I can understand how an Engineer heavy weapon team would have a single shotgun (i.e. ignore the pluralization of the word as a typo).  It makes sense both on the basis of consistency (a more reliable/less error-ridden source (GW book) that has each heavy weapon team armed with a single anti-personnel weapon), and from a logic point of view (one guy fires the heavy weapon, his support buddy fires the anti-personel weapon).  If you discard both convention and logic, then the door opens to infinite shotguns.  A heavy weapon may have multiple guys on it, but it's still a single model.

 

The FW FAQ doesn't mention this at all. 

 

Also I reject the reductio ad absurdum fallacy.  Nobody is arguing for infinite shotguns, it's 2 shotguns, just like the Death Korps Weapon Teams have two lasguns.

[Withershadow]

FW FAQ and their Index is a rush job full of errors and typos.  At some point logic should reign, otherwise we have veterans who are as bad as regular guardsmen, and rapier operators become space marines.

 

It doesn't say they have 2 shotguns or 2 lasguns, and if anything is absurd, it's to suggest a single guy can fire both a rifle/shotgun and a heavy weapon at the same time.  I mean, really, how gamey can we get here, just for an extra gun?

Edited August 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[Truesight]

Page 179 of the rulebook under Shooting phase, Choose Ranged Weapon:

'If a model has several weapons it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit'

 

Neither are grenades or pistols so it's just playing by the rules.

House rule all you want.

[Withershadow]

Right, and if we're discarding convention and logic purely for RAW, the RAW says shotguns with no upper limit, so you can buy and shoot as many shotguns as you pay for.  My heavy flamers have 15 shotguns each, and fire all 15 along with the heavy flamer!

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and I will treat plural "shotguns" as a typo, because it's illogical and some degree of realism matters more to me than an extra shotgun.  I doubt your attitude will win many friends, but game away.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[Truesight]

Right, and if we're discarding convention and logic purely for RAW, the RAW says shotguns with no upper limit, so you can buy and shoot as many shotguns as you pay for.  My heavy flamers have 15 shotguns each, and fire all 15 along with the heavy flamer!

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and I will treat plural "shotguns" as a typo, because it's illogical and some degree of realism matters more to me than an extra shotgun.  I doubt your attitude will win many friends, but game away.

You keep claiming convention and logic but don't give an argument.  Keep up the strawman though.  I have lots of mates and am running a large tournament with wargaming club uni friends at the moment, but thanks for the concern 

[Withershadow]

Throwing out debate terms in an attempt to mischaracterize what I am trying to say makes you seem more pompous than erudite, just FYI.

 

I gave you convention, GW has had a heavy weapon team have a single heavy weapon and a single anti-personnel weapon for the last 2-3 editions since heavy weapon teams stopped being two individual models.  This carried over into the Index, and makes sense with how you would expect it realistically to work.  Logic I shouldn't have to qualify, a single person cannot fire a giant anti-tank machine gun and a rifle at the same time, rules abstractions notwithstanding.  Given that FW has made a LOT of errors, I will count this as another one.  Like I said, I think it's gamey and unrealistic (in before "but muh Chaos and Xenos, wut realism lulz!" argument/meme), and to re-iterate, we can agree to disagree.

 

I'll say it again, at the risk of you accusing me of ad nauseam, we'll have to agree to disagree and I'll stop derailing the OPs thread now.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Withershadow

[duz_]

Now gent's that's not a good example to set to a new member, derailing his thread while the rest of us are trying to grab some rest!

If there is still some debate on who / how DKOK HWT's work, you can always start a thread in the Rules forum :)

 

Welcome DieReichsfurher!

By the sounds of it you are fairly new dipping your toes into the great universe of 40k. Deciding on collecting Imperial Guard and Death Korps you have made a great decision joining the great ranks of the Emperor's Hammer!

You may not also be aware that 8th edition (new Warhammer 40,000 that it was dubbed in the lead up) was released the end of June this year. So anything you might find from then, or even shortly after will not reflect the new rules of the game.

 

Given the price of Death Korps (DKOK) you certainly want to invest in the rules first before going head first in buying models! You can purchase the digital or print version through ForgeWorld I believe. 

In the meanwhile you can also you an army list builder to help you have a play around and provide some basic rules insights. Battlescribe and Army Builder are two common ones. These aren't a substitute for the actual rules, but will get you by in the meanwhile. The Games Workshop website also has a free copy of the base rules to play 40k which you may want to download before purchasing the full rulebook.

 

I myself am not particularly well versed in DKOK, however many of our members are and I am sure they can provide you more feedback on army specifics.

 

Generally speaking and definitely in this edition you do well to have a well rounded list. You many want to aim initially for a "Patrol Detachment" minimum requirement 1-2 HQ's and 1-3 Troops, then build up to a Battalion, minimum requirement 2-3 HQs, 3-6 Troops and go from there. Troops are extremely useful in this edition, not to say the other Elite, Heavy Support and Fast Attack toys aren't either and that is certainly where the flavour of your army will come from!

Depending on your area given you are new some players maybe ok with you just taking what you want to use in battle.

 

Good luck with your force! I hope to see more of it and your experiences as you progress

Edited August 5, 2017 by duz_

[Mitchverr]

The above are pretty accurate and good for how you want to start it especially in buying the rulebooks first, and welcome to the Korps brother!

 

 

Also, if you play with a regular group/location, what is the rule on which models you must use etc? Is it a games workshop location or a 3rd party store/garage/pub? I ask because it is very possible to save alot of money on building a krieg army using other sites for the actual models which look simular to that of forgeworld if you wish to do so.

 

I personally recommend the anvil industry regiments builder, a good deal of WW1/2 style stuff in there to have a themed army but at an exceptionally smaller pricetag (and also a good platoon builder option where if you buy more you save more). For example they have both brodie helmets (british ww1/2 helmet) with gasmasks, open face and a gladiator face and also have a german helmet with open face, gasmask and skull mask (they are very obvious as a "close link" to dkok infantry and grenadiers). When it comes to death riders you will have to either go with forgeworld or go with a mix and match using several 3rd party stores such as victoria mini mixing with anvil industry to keep the same theme if you go outside forgeworld.

 

I really wish that these guys were around 2 years ago before I bought my kriegers from FW, you can field the same army for like, a 3rd of the price which is a boon if you are lucky enough to not have to deal with a "must be GW models" situation.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mitchverr

[DieReichsfurher]

Ok first up, before you go buying any models buy the rules.

 

You'll need the Core Rulebook and Imperial Armour: Forces of the Astra Militarum for the Kriegers.

 

As far as I can tell those rules you listed are for 40k Epic games, they aren't related at all to the normal 40k rules, don't use them to base a list around.

 

I'll PM you something to get you started.

 

 

For 500 points keep it nice and simple, have lots of different units and give yourself a force that will be useful to build on.

 

Death Korps Marshall 37

 

2x Platoon, plasma gun, plasma pistol,  62

 

10 Krieg Engineers Heavy Flamer, 2 Melta, Demo Charge,=126

Storm Chimera 103

 

5 Death Riders -80

 

Earth Shaker Carriage Battery -91

 

499.

 

Something to get you started anyway.

Yea the rules are my number one priority at the moment, just waiting until next Friday for my next paycheck. Those rules I found did seem a bit weird to me, thanks for clearing up it was for a different game altogether!

 

Now gent's that's not a good example to set to a new member, derailing his thread while the rest of us are trying to grab some rest!

If there is still some debate on who / how DKOK HWT's work, you can always start a thread in the Rules forum

 

Welcome DieReichsfurher!

By the sounds of it you are fairly new dipping your toes into the great universe of 40k. Deciding on collecting Imperial Guard and Death Korps you have made a great decision joining the great ranks of the Emperor's Hammer!

You may not also be aware that 8th edition (new Warhammer 40,000 that it was dubbed in the lead up) was released the end of June this year. So anything you might find from then, or even shortly after will not reflect the new rules of the game.

 

Given the price of Death Korps (DKOK) you certainly want to invest in the rules first before going head first in buying models! You can purchase the digital or print version through ForgeWorld I believe. 

In the meanwhile you can also you an army list builder to help you have a play around and provide some basic rules insights. Battlescribe and Army Builder are two common ones. These aren't a substitute for the actual rules, but will get you by in the meanwhile. The Games Workshop website also has a free copy of the base rules to play 40k which you may want to download before purchasing the full rulebook.

 

I myself am not particularly well versed in DKOK, however many of our members are and I am sure they can provide you more feedback on army specifics.

 

Generally speaking and definitely in this edition you do well to have a well rounded list. You many want to aim initially for a "Patrol Detachment" minimum requirement 1-2 HQ's and 1-3 Troops, then build up to a Battalion, minimum requirement 2-3 HQs, 3-6 Troops and go from there. Troops are extremely useful in this edition, not to say the other Elite, Heavy Support and Fast Attack toys aren't either and that is certainly where the flavour of your army will come from!

Depending on your area given you are new some players maybe ok with you just taking what you want to use in battle.

 

Good luck with your force! I hope to see more of it and your experiences as you progress

Thank you for the really kind welcome! And I totally agree on needing to research this before i go shopping. Just my luck to get addicted to one of the most expensive models! I had no idea about this new edition, and have just started to look at some info on it. Seems the imperial guard as a whole got a bit better from what people are saying. I will make sure to use that army builder and the free rules until my own copy comes in. Thanks for the tips on what a starting force should have, i'll have to think pretty carefully on how I want to make up my army, and all of the help from you guys is gonna affect that. Thanls!

 

The above are pretty accurate and good for how you want to start it especially in buying the rulebooks first, and welcome to the Korps brother!

 

 

Also, if you play with a regular group/location, what is the rule on which models you must use etc? Is it a games workshop location or a 3rd party store/garage/pub? I ask because it is very possible to save alot of money on building a krieg army using other sites for the actual models which look simular to that of forgeworld if you wish to do so.

 

I personally recommend the anvil industry regiments builder, a good deal of WW1/2 style stuff in there to have a themed army but at an exceptionally smaller pricetag (and also a good platoon builder option where if you buy more you save more). For example they have both brodie helmets (british ww1/2 helmet) with gasmasks, open face and a gladiator face and also have a german helmet with open face, gasmask and skull mask (they are very obvious as a "close link" to dkok infantry and grenadiers). When it comes to death riders you will have to either go with forgeworld or go with a mix and match using several 3rd party stores such as victoria mini mixing with anvil industry to keep the same theme if you go outside forgeworld.

 

I really wish that these guys were around 2 years ago before I bought my kriegers from FW, you can field the same army for like, a 3rd of the price which is a boon if you are lucky enough to not have to deal with a "must be GW models" situation.

I haven't been to an event yet, but once I have an army the main people I will be playing with is my friends and a local hobby shop that holds 40k meet ups almost every weekend. After looking through all the price for the DKOK models,($40+ for infantry?!?!) I agree on the use of 3rd party ones. Your comment actually led me to find this

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hIhU40lcfs&t=411s that talks about the Anvil models, and may be of some use to others looking to start a DKOK force.

 

I really appreciate all the feedback guys, and your help is greatly appreciated. As I build my force ill try to keep you guys updated, and for now I will work on a new list using actual rules :P, then i'll see what you guys think. My main idea so far is a main infantry line with artillery in the back, but we'll see. Thanks again!

[DieReichsfurher]

Also, another random question, what do you guys think of this color scheme? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrcG5iGk0Fo I really like its sort of mix with French and German WW1 Uniform elements. Tell me what you think!

Edited August 6, 2017 by DieReichsfurher

[Withershadow]

Well considering that Death Korps are Verdun, the Army, WW1 German/French color schemes work well. But the Vraks books do provide a lot of variety. Mine are being painted more like Steel Legion/Afrika corps.

[Mitchverr]

Also, another random question, what do you guys think of this color scheme? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrcG5iGk0Fo I really like its sort of mix with French and German WW1 Uniform elements. Tell me what you think!

 

I have painted mine using that video as a base (the models i buy from anvil will be using british theme though).

 

But yeah, thats an extremely useful video, i have gotten some extremely high quality painted guys because of a good amount of care and using that video as a base, works very well :)

[Tua'tara]

Ok first up, before you go buying any models buy the rules.

 

You'll need the Core Rulebook and Imperial Armour: Forces of the Astra Militarum for the Kriegers.

 

As far as I can tell those rules you listed are for 40k Epic games, they aren't related at all to the normal 40k rules, don't use them to base a list around.

 

I'll PM you something to get you started.

 

 

For 500 points keep it nice and simple, have lots of different units and give yourself a force that will be useful to build on.

 

Death Korps Marshall 37

 

2x Platoon, plasma gun, plasma pistol,  62

 

10 Krieg Engineers Heavy Flamer, 2 Melta, Demo Charge,=126

Storm Chimera 103

 

5 Death Riders -80

 

Earth Shaker Carriage Battery -91

 

499.

 

Something to get you started anyway.

 

 

I thought - hey that looks a nice list, I'll cost it out and it came to £395.00 for a 500 point army. Ouch. 

[duz_]

Sounds about right, DKOK probably aren't the most cost effective army to begin with ;)

The models do look amazing and their rules are pretty kewl though :D