Nemesis Dreadknight Grand Master (NDKGM) Discussion Area

[Valerian]

NDKGM has base M8, WS2+, BS2+, S6, T6, W12, A5, Ld9, Sv2+, before degradation from the damage table.

 

He can cast two powers and deny one power (knows Smite plus a Sanctic).

 

Has a 4++ Inv Save from Iron Halo and Force Shielding.

 

Still gets Rites of Battle to give himself and units within 6" the re-roll of 1s to hit.

 

 

 

Base cost for an GM is 160 points, and for an NDKGM is 190 points.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think Sanctuary is a must on this guy.

[Valerian]

I think Sanctuary is a must on this guy.

 

Very much agreed.  He's going to come in at a hefty price-tag, especially if armed with the expensive ranged weapons, so you're going to want as much protection of that investment as possible.  

[Valerian]

I've been running Voldus and two NDKs in each of my 8e games so far, but next time out I think I'll drop Voldus and upgrade both NDKs to GM status, which I can pay for with the offset. It'll definitely be worth a try for a few games to see how I like it.  The NDKs did fine, but not great.  I'm hoping that this new option takes them back up a few notches to where adversaries really fear getting into combat with one, again.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm going to try running one with both G Psi and H incinerator.

 

Comes to a hefty 295 with Teleporter, but i have trouble passing up a 12" auto hit and 12 shots with reroll 1's.

 

I'll always teleport him in. Keep him safe fir that first turn if i go second. And he can still hit with both guns.

 

I expect him to draw a lot of fire and i hope a 3++ is enough to keep him safe.

 

Shame the prognosticator strategum doesn't work with him.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Holier Than Thou]

NDKGM has base M8, WS2+, BS2+, S6, T6, W12, A5, Ld9, Sv2+, before degradation from the damage table.

 

He can cast two powers and deny one power (knows Smite plus a Sanctic).

 

Has a 4++ Inv Save from Iron Halo and Force Shielding.

 

Still gets Rites of Battle to give himself and units within 6" the re-roll of 1s to hit.

 

 

 

Base cost for an GM is 160 points, and for an NDKGM is 190 points.

Are these points confirmed? Luis Mars thought the GM had gone down to 140 base.

[Valerian]

In my games, so far, I've been putting two squads of Paladins, an Apothecary, and Voldus in the Teleportarium, and deploying the two NDKs and two squads of Interceptors on the table. The Interceptors can Shunt, one of the NDKs can Gate, and the other units all Teleport in.  That gives me 7 our of 8 units guaranteed where I want them, just outside of 9" from the enemy at the end of the first movement phase.  The other NDK has an 8 inch Movement and a d6 Advance, if need be, so I can get pretty much everything right where I need it.  Saves me 20 points by not bothering with the Personal Teleporter on either NDK. 

 

NDKGM has base M8, WS2+, BS2+, S6, T6, W12, A5, Ld9, Sv2+, before degradation from the damage table.
 
He can cast two powers and deny one power (knows Smite plus a Sanctic).
 
Has a 4++ Inv Save from Iron Halo and Force Shielding.
 
Still gets Rites of Battle to give himself and units within 6" the re-roll of 1s to hit.
 
 
 
Base cost for an GM is 160 points, and for an NDKGM is 190 points.

Are these points confirmed? Luis Mars thought the GM had gone down to 140 base.

 

 

No, not confirmed.  I can edit to 140; I was just going off of what the guy said in the review, and the correction someone else noted a little later.

[Holier Than Thou]

Probably is 160, I'm just hoping Luis Mars is right as the points costs he has suggested would make my current list about 60 points cheaper.

[Sothalor]

Not sure if it's off-topic for this thread (not specified as pure game/rules-oriented discussion), but I have to say the idea of a Grand Master piloting a Dreadknight kind of bugs me. Grand Masters are, after all, supposed to be commanders. They're supposed to be keeping an eye on the battle at-large and directing the Grey Knight forces in the field. Dreadknights are also supposed to be super-demanding to pilot and inevitably in extreme, high-risk situations.

 

That doesn't seem like a good combination to me.

 

Shouldn't you want the guy in the gigantic exosuit to be somebody who can devote the entirety of his attention to fighting with it? Shouldn't you want the guy directing your forces able to devote his efforts towards that?

Having one person doing both seems like it'd get you subpar results in each field. There is a reason, after all, we moved away from tank commanders who also had to load and fire the main gun.

 

I know, I know, it's Warhammer "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword!" 40,000. Sometimes you just gotta embrace the silliness.

[Seizeman]

I've done a little math on the GMNDK and it appears to be a beast.

 

Durability wise, he's a 32% more durable than the regular NDK against heavy weapons (AP -3 or better). About as durable as a land raider in this case. The good stuff starts when you add sanctuary (or the +1 invulnerable stratagem). In that case, the GMNDK becomes a 13% more durable than a land raider (or a regular NDK with sanctuary) vs overcharged plasma, a 43% better vs melta and a 50% better vs lascannons. It takes 16 lascannon HITS to kill the GM. Give him the Iron Resolve WL trait (+1 wound, 6+ FnP) and it becomes ridiculous (20 lascannon hits to kill it).

 

About the damage, he's an 84% better than the regular NDK in melee, and about a 21% better than the doomglaive (38% compared to a venerable with regular DCCW). In the shooting phase, he is a 54% better than the regular NDK.

 

I want to remind you that the heavy psycannon is, unlike it's regular version, one of the best ranged weapons in the game. The extra damage makes all the difference, and it becomes a triple autocannon that costs 3 points less than a twin autcannon (at half the range, of course). It's one of the reasons that makes the Doomglaive dreadnought so good. The problem we had before is that the only other unit that could use it was the regular NDK, wich is a bad unit, but the GMNDK is a different monster.

 

Also with the GM's improved accuracy, the psilencer is better than the incinerator against everything with thoughness less than 8, so no reason to take the incinerator, specially when it costs twice the points.

 

So, for a 27% increase in the cost over a regular NDK, you get 50% more durability, 84% more melee damage, 54% more ranged damage and a nice aura (with a pretty big base), plus acess to warlord traits. Assuming there's no relevant information missing, I'm pretty sure the GMNDK is a must have for every GK army, and it's likely you want to take more than one, specially when they fill HQ slots nicely, which is the main problem we had before when trying to get command points.

[Adeptus]

I think Sanctuary is a must on this guy.

I reckon most of the time a Paladin squad is going to be a better target for Sanctuary.

[Gentlemanloser]

Seize i think the +1 inv strat is infantry only, so can't be used on the GM NDK.

 

G Psi and H Psy for ranged weapons?

 

Two fists for melee?

[Seizeman]

The +1 inv stratagem is for any character.

 

Yes, the heavy psycannon is the best heavy weapon and the psilencer is better than the incinerator. You probably want to give them both to take advantage of his ballistic skill. Also this weapons combination makes him able to use the psychic overload stratagem somewhat efficiently.

 

For NDK, the sword is the best weapon. Fists are worse than the sword, as +1 attack does not compensate for the 1d3 damage. Hammer is slightly better (about 9%) against vehicles, but worse against everything else, and more expensive, so it is an option if you expect a lot of vehicles or  if you play multiple GMNDK, but in general the sword is more useful.

 

About paladins being a better target for sanctuary, it is probaby not the case. The NDK gets more from sanctuary than the paladins do, as he becomes 50% more survivable while the paladins only become a 25% more durable. Also, the threshold  for sanctuary to be effective is bigger on the GMNDK, that is, the GM gets advantage from the +1 to his invul vs weapons with AP -2 or better, while the paladins only get a benefit vs weapons with AP -3 or better (because they have a 4+ anyway vs AP-2). Furthermore, Paladins get the same effect (against shooting) just by being in cover, which is almost impossible for the NDK to have. Even if some times it is better to use sanctuary on the paladins because of their value at a certain point in the game, we also have the problem of availability. If sanctuary is usually better on the GM, you will most likely give him sanctuary as his power, and something different to the paladins, so they won't be able to use sanctuary anyway. This is specially true when the paladins can have hammerhand or GoI instead, wich they make better use of than the NDK, meaning you will have a more efficient distribution of your psychic powers.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Seizeman

[Gentlemanloser]

Hmmm. Iron Resolve seems like an ideal choice.

 

The extra wound combos well with having a degregation chart.

[Valerian]

We can't use the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait.  That's for armies taken from the Space Marines codex.  

 

 

Here's what I provided in the Warlord Trait thread:

 

 

We can't use the Warlord Traits from the Space Marines codex.  The Warlord Traits are in the 'Sons of the Primarchs' section of the book that also provides the Psychic Discipline, Relics, Stratagems, and Tactical Objectives.  At the very beginning of the section (page 194), we are told that all of these things require the specific Chapter keywords of the Chapters that use that codex (e.g. Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc.) in order to use the rules described in that section (which definitely includes the Warlord Traits).

 

It goes on to say that other Chapters, such as Blood Angels and Space Wolves (and it would include us) are not allowed to use any of the rules or abilities in this section, as we'll get our own rules.

 

 

Valerian

Edited August 6, 2017 by Valerian

[Waking Dreamer]

Not sure if it's off-topic for this thread (not specified as pure game/rules-oriented discussion), but I have to say the idea of a Grand Master piloting a Dreadknight kind of bugs me. Grand Masters are, after all, supposed to be commanders. They're supposed to be keeping an eye on the battle at-large and directing the Grey Knight forces in the field. Dreadknights are also supposed to be super-demanding to pilot and inevitably in extreme, high-risk situations.

 

That doesn't seem like a good combination to me.

 

Shouldn't you want the guy in the gigantic exosuit to be somebody who can devote the entirety of his attention to fighting with it? Shouldn't you want the guy directing your forces able to devote his efforts towards that?

Having one person doing both seems like it'd get you subpar results in each field. There is a reason, after all, we moved away from tank commanders who also had to load and fire the main gun.

 

I know, I know, it's Warhammer "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword!" 40,000. Sometimes you just gotta embrace the silliness.

I can understand the idea of a GM spending his time in an exo-suit all the while in battle off, but I see it more as the NDK returning to it's original fluff of only being piloted by the elite of the elite (not necessarily GMs). It didn't feel that way in the index for 8th's regular NDKs. Apparently the warrior piloting one of the most advanced and rare wargear of the already elite army...only has the combat skill of your average SM.

 

Not only that, but despite hes supposed specialised training he can only shoot his ranged weapons at less accuracy as again... you average SM, getting even worse with damage. I like how GMNDKs can now be more than GK distraction carnifexes, and make actual use of all it's options, besides as bullet sponges discarding it's 2 unique GK ranged weapons - just to make it worthwhile.

 

Sure, you can still run NDKs that way...as big, barebone beatsticks. BUT, now we have the option to play them effectively other ways too!

Edited August 6, 2017 by Waking Dreamer

[Corvus Fortis]

Tested GMNDK today in local store against Custodes with Guilliman. Used hammer, g.psilencer and h.psycannon. He is extra durable with sanctuary. Surviving the whole turn of shooting from two custodes units, then from eversor's melta bomb, then from contemptor dread and finally the whole round of CC and loosing only 3(!) wound was awesome. I lost 3 only because of custodes' multi-damage. So the guy is really tanky. And, assuming he will always be priority target, falchion palladins and bolter interceptors can feel safe and doing the killing work. Hammer dissapointed me. Killed only 1 custodes and stipped some wounds form contemptor. I guess, it is because of 3+ invuln custodes have. This needs more testing. Psilencer and Psycannon with psychic onslaught stripped 4 wounds from contemptor in shooting phase before this fight, but I rolled poor to wound. So want to test these more too. 

 

However, the best thing about GMNDK is his large base, that allows him to give and recieve auras after he had charged. So if he is in CC and Palading Ancient, that deepstriked with him, failed his charge, GM still recieve +1 A from the Ancient without using CP for aura extend.

[Waking Dreamer]

^ Its good to see the GMNDK pull it's weight on the table. Just to tell you for future games, the +1A from the Ancient is for Infantry only.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Just use 'First Into The Fray' to attack twice ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I can't wait to first turn teleport my GM NDK 9" away, pop psychic onslaught, and unload a G Psi and H Psy at some unsuspecting fools! ;)

 

Then use first to the fray to try to charge as well.

 

I think i'll raise some crys of GK are OP with that!

 

Play 1k with Eldar on Wednesday, facing 2K of Nids. Time to squash some bugs!

[Valerian]

Just make sure you shoot at a different unit than the one you charge. You don't want them to remove all of the closest models from your shooting, making it nearly impossible to get the charge, even with the re-roll.

[Beams]

Anyone have a powerlevel for him?

[Soder]

Look like 14 to me

[Yossarion]

The more I see of the GMNDK the more I think it might be our Tau Commander we can spam for great effect.

[Blakklist]

So just thinking out loud here. Wouldn't a good deterrent from melee damage be to take the incinerator. Auto hits on over watch and the 2 damage track imho would make him one of the last models I would want to charge. To be fair shooting is powerful this edition but melee is where all the damage is coming from, right? Wouldn't that add to his survivability?