Nemesis Dreadknight Grand Master (NDKGM) Discussion Area

[Valerian]

It's 40 points, though, which is pretty dang expensive for what it does.

[Captain Coolpants]

I actually have to agree with the heavy incinerator. I had a half wound dreadknight get assaulted by some Eldar shining spears (actually a very scary unit now!) caused a few wounds and ended up killing 3 of them because of the 2 damage. Literally saved him lol.

[Godeskian]

I actually have to agree with the heavy incinerator. I had a half wound dreadknight get assaulted by some Eldar shining spears (actually a very scary unit now!) caused a few wounds and ended up killing 3 of them because of the 2 damage. Literally saved him lol.

I love flamers too. Would you use the psilencer or the heavy psycannon as the second weapon?

[Seizeman]

The psilencer is better than the incinerator agains absolutely everything (by a significant margin), at twice the range for half the cost. I'ts not worth loosing that for a bit of overwatch damage.

 

You don't want to stop the enemy from charging your GM, you want to punish them for it. The GM is pretty good defending himself, and having the rest of your melee units close by ready for a counter charge should be enough to make charging a GMNDK a bad idea, specially with the new "only in death..." stratagem, which we get for half the points Space marines do.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

Something I'm a little unsure on is why the choice between the Sword and the hammer is so cut and dry. Even with the minus one he still hits on a respectable 3 and does a guaranteed three damage. The points cost between them almost seems negligible, and I power levels it wouldn't matter but I feel I'm missing something big

[Corvus Fortis]

Hitting on 2s rerolling 1s and hitting on 3s rerolling 1s is a huge difference. All the 2s you roll for to-hit are damage lost forever. And swords do the same damage as hammers on 3+. What can be more important is higher AP. Every 5 or 6 enemy unit rolls for save is d6 damage lost. However, this advantage is negated by invulns. And 5 pts can really be critical. When building a list I often find myself over limit with 1-2 points.

 

On the other hand, you still have fist with a hammer. It can be used against models like termies and 100% better against 1-wound models.

 

I really see no reason to take hammer, unless you know you face 12+ wound monsters or vehicles. If you want to take down a greater daemon, land raider or knight, hammer is the way to go, but for cutting a dread sword is more than enough. 

[Helycon]

Until you roll that 1 when you needed to do 3 wounds to kill something.

[Zamtro]

Until you roll that 1 when you needed to do 3 wounds to kill something.

That's why you want a command point re-roll. Its here or there really, you risk failing to hit verse chancing lower damage, surely someone here can math hammer it (Or already has) If you absolutely must have the most reliable weapon.

 

For me, a sword always wins, because it's hands down 10x better looking than the hammer! If I could be bothered converting my NDK to have a two handed hammer mid swing, with a long staff and big old head, it would be worth it!

[Helycon]

I agree on the looks part ;)

[Adeptus]

Yeah, aesthetics are just as important as stats, IMO. If nothing else, a good model looks good forever, while powerful stats come and go with different editions and FAQs. Plus, you're more likely to actually paint the model if you like how it looks, and you're more likely to want to play with it.

[Waking Dreamer]

How well would a NDKGM do against a Wraithknight in combat? Assuming your using the greathammer (the better choice here?) , with the Nemesis Lord WT, and Sanctuary up on the charge?

 

Is it true that except for Gulliman that the NDKGM can take down almost any unit in combat?

[Gentlemanloser]

WK. S8, T8, W24, A4. Save 3+/5++

 

WS. 13-24 3+. 7-12 4+. 1-6 5+.

 

Titanic Ghostglaive. Sx2, AP-4, D6.

 

GMNDK charges (assuming no shooting).

 

5 attacks, 3.33 hits. 0.6 rerolls. Total hits 3.93

 

2.62 Wounds. 1.8 unsaved. Ave damage per hit with hammer / lord is 5

 

WK takes 9 wounds.

 

WK still on wS 3+.

 

4 attacks, 2.67 hits, 2.23 wounds. 0.74 unsaved wounds

 

GM NDK takes 2.59 wounds.

 

 

Next round WK takes another 9 wounds dropping him to WS5+ and it's basically over.

 

WK can't compete with average damage 5 per wound and a 3++ save.

 

Dies in three rounds.

 

GM NDK takes 3.89W overall.

 

Edit. Gah. Redoing this for a 3++ save not 2++.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Captain Coolpants]

Well this last week my gmndk actually solo killed a wraithknight with absolute ease lol.

Santuary was up, and he was armed with a hammer. Admittedly good rolls for me and bad for him and 3 wounds previously taken from smites.

 

But made me giggle

[Yossarion]

How well would a NDKGM do against a Wraithknight in combat? Assuming your using the greathammer (the better choice here?) , with the Nemesis Lord WT, and Sanctuary up on the charge?

 

Is it true that except for Gulliman that the NDKGM can take down almost any unit in combat?

Yeah, neither of them are as killy as Anggrath but invuln saves are the only things that really throw a wrench in units like this. So bring in a seperate detachment with a SM libby to deny invuln saves.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM NDK would take 5.18 wounds overall.

 

As in the second round the WK would go first and attack still at full WS again.

 

Still dies in this round before getting chance to attack back.

 

Second and third round GM NDK would be down to 4A now and deal only 7 damage each round for the next two rounds.

 

23W total over three rounds.

 

Oh fudge it.

 

For those 2 4A round forgot the -1 hit. 1 sec.

 

WK dies in 4th round after dealing 7.78w in total.

 

230 points versus 487 points...

Edited August 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Waking Dreamer]

GM NDK would take 5.18 wounds overall.

As in the second round the WK would go first and attack still at full WS again.

Still dies in this round before getting chance to attack back.

Second and third round GM NDK would be down to 4A now and deal only 7 damage each round for the next two rounds.

23W total over three rounds.

Oh fudge it.

For those 2 4A round forgot the -1 hit. 1 sec.

WK dies in 4th round after dealing 7.78w in total.

230 points versus 487 points...

So, statistically 4 rounds to take down a WK solo...a pretty decent way to keep 400+ points of his army preoccupied for the entire game...especially if you have a second NDKGM to hit other targets.

[RedemptionNL]

Your math is off in a few places GL:

The WK's ghostglaive does a static 6 damage, not D6 damage. Also, the GMNDK only re-rolls failed hits of 1 without outside buffs, so with 5 attacks on a 3+ he's only hitting 3.88 times on average, and on a 4+ it's only 2.67 hits on average.

 

On average, the fight is really close; they're both pretty much dead after the 3rd round. But as it only takes 2 failed saves for the GMNDK to die, you basically just need to be lucky with your invulnerable saves (and keep a command point to re-roll failed saves handy). Especially if Sanctuary fails or gets denied you're going to be in for some hurt.

[Danarc]

And the GMDK with sword and psycannon & psylencer?

[RedemptionNL]

Average damage of the Greatsword is only a half less than the hammer (3.5 instead of 4 before considering any warlord trait). As it also wounds T7 and T8 on a 3+ and the extra armour penetration of the hammer doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save, but it hits easier, the sword actually does more damage. With the Nemesis Lord Warlord Trait the GMNDK would do 9.72 wounds on average vs the 8.64 of the hammer.

 

As for the ranged weapons, assuming the GMNDK moved so hitting on a 3+:

G. Psilencer: 12 shots, 9.33 hits, 1.55 wounds, 0.51 unsaved wounds, 1.03 damage

H. Psycannon: 6 shots, 4.67 hits, 1.55 wounds, 0.77 unsaved wounds, 1.56 damage

 

And with Psychic Onslaught stratagem:

G. Psilencer: 12 shots, 9.33 hits, 3.11 wounds, 1.55 unsaved wounds, 3.11 damage

H. Psycannon: 6 shots, 4.67 hits, 2.33 wounds, 1.55 unsaved wounds, 3.11 damage

So that's an additional 3.63 damage on average if you use it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah poop though it was d6..

[Godhead]

Is the GMNDK better than Draigo?

[Seizeman]

Their role is slightly different so you can't compare them directly, but in general, yes.

 

If you compare them directly, the GMNDK deals similar damage in melee (usually a bit more) and a lot more in the shooting phase. He's also a lot more durable and more mobile. He's also slightly worse in the psychic phase and has a slightly worse aura.

 

But you should not really consider the GMNDK as a character, but as a heavy support tank that happens to fill an HQ slot, wich is very convenient. They fill the role of heavy hitting tanks, attracting lots of fire and protecting your other units while they do a ton of damage. They are the biggest addition the codex brings us and has pushed the GK army to a much higher power level than before.

 

Characters have the advantage to be able to hide among their units so they are safe while they buff and support them. That works fine for other armies, as thet can get really cheap characters with good buffs so it is ok if they stay back and never fight. For example, you can get a SM chaptain for less than 80 points and a liutenan for 60, or Imperial guard can get commanders for 20 point. With Draigo, this does not work, as you must use him in combat, which leaves him vulnerable, specially with his low mobility. And the storm shield is good, but can't make up for having only 7 wounds and thoughness 4. Also, you already want to play GMNDKs for their stats, so as a side benefit, you are already getting army-wide reroll aura. That makes Draigo's (or any other GM) aura a lot less attractive.

 

So Draigo does not really add a new dimension to the army and does not fill a specific or important role. If you add him, you are just adding some extra damage to your army, which is fine, but not essential. For this role, you have more options, like apothecaries or Voldus, wich are preferable to Draigo in most cases, because of their cost (not only because of pure efficiency but because of point limit constraints) and versatility.

 

So, in conclusion, you want to start your HQ's with 1 or 2 GMNDKS (personally I would never play less than 2). If after that, you feel that you need more punch and find than an extra HQ would be attractive to unlock an extra detachment, Draigo is a possible candidate to fill that slot, but he has some competition. If you really like the model and want to play them no matter what, he's never going to be much worse than the alternatives (Voldus, apothecaries, other HQ), so it's fine to play him in that case.

[Meatcaber]

Where can I find the rules/datasheet/unit entry for this guy?

 

Got the Index today but can't find any option for him any where. Is he in another book?

[Gentlemanloser]

He's in the codex. Not the index.

Which is now (mostly) outdated due to the codex release.

[Holier Than Thou]

Where can I find the rules/datasheet/unit entry for this guy?

 

Got the Index today but can't find any option for him any where. Is he in another book?

 

He's in the Grey Knights Codex.