Sanctic Psychic Powers Discussion Area

[Valerian]

Sanctic Powers:

 

Sanctuary:  6WC, GK unit within 12" gets 5+ Inv Save, or a +1 to an existing Inv Save

 

Astral Aim: 5WC, no LOS required to shoot, and ignores cover saves

 

Vortex of Doom: 8WC, drops a vortex over the nearest visible enemy model within 12" and that unit and any other unit within 3" of that model takes d3 mortal wounds.  Increases to d6 mortal wounds if the power is manifested on a 12+ (so combines will with the Psychic Channeling stratagem)

 

No changes to Purge Soul, Gate of Infinity, or Hammerhand from the Index (that I could see).

Edited August 5, 2017 by Valerian

[Valerian]

Vortex looks pretty decent this time around.  Harder to pull off with the 8WC requirement, but that'll be an easier WC7 for us, basically, if you go pure Grey Knights to get the +1 to manifest (and deny) benefit.  Doesn't look overpowered, either, as it's basically just the same as a regular (non Rites of Banishment) version of Smite, that carries over to other close units, if they happen to be within 3".  Definitely a fair power that no opponent should complain about.

 

Getting Sanctuary back is great, though.  We're really going to need that for some units, especially our NDKs and NDKGMs.

 

The initial three powers from the Index were all good, already, and have been quite useful in my games so far.  Glad they're still the same.

 

Astral Aim isn't that great, in my opinion.  It's okay, but not terrific.  I'm not sure which of my units would want to take it, over the other options we have that are better.  Only thing it really does is give a different choice to relieve some Rule of One constraints, but I'd probably just rather cast Smite in most situations for the extra free mortal wound.  Although, I suppose it would be fun to put a unit behind a wall, and completely out of sight so they can't be targeted at all, and use Astral Aim to shoot through and "troll" nearby enemy units; that would be a bit of a laugh.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm going to pair astral aim (from a different unit) with a dual twin auto index dread.

 

Shame that our rifleman are stuck with not knowing any sanctic powers.

 

Seems a bit mean on GW part.

[Captain Coolpants]

Can we still just choose powers? I'm liking the idea of a big paladin squad with sanctuary.

 

 

Vortex took a huge hit, went from throwing as many WC as we wanted to cast, staying on the board and D.

 

To a set D3 mortal wounds with an 8 cast! My farseers have almost always needed their re-roll for 7 charge powers.. So it's only really effective if you use CPs to help cast.

[Valerian]

Can we still just choose powers?

 

Yes

[TheMostGood]

The average dice roll is 7 and we get +1 to psychic tests if it is a pure GK army. You'll probably reliably cast Vortex without real issue IMO. However, the real juicy part of Vortex is getting that 12+ for D6 mortal wounds. 

 

Astral Aim will be situational I think. It can open up a lot of troll combinations though. I wonder, can it be cast on vehicles? If so, vehicles like the Stormraven or Land Raider can do some serious damage to units. It basically makes it so that nothing is out of LoS or cover for GK shooting. Something that no other army can really boast. 

 

Sanctuary 5++ invul or +1 if it has one already. Pretty self explanatory. I think it is a strong force multiplier though. You could cast it on a large squad of Paladins or Terminators, for example, which would give them a 4++ save. 4++ save is really strong this edition. Combine that with an apothecary and you really have a strong and durable unit. Need some extra invuln? Bump it to a 3++ with the stratagem and become almost unstoppable. 

This is just a random observation with no experience to really back it up, but it seems like the GK list making might change to have equal parts assault and shooty elements in them. We have a lot of abilities and stratagems that make us very tank, but we do not have enough to really go around for everyone. I wonder if a better list combination would be to have a couple of melee units and the rest for shooting or support. 

[Soder]

Do we know the WC cost of sanctuary?

[Valerian]

Do we know the WC cost of sanctuary?

 

Yeah, it's WC6.  I'll edit that in above

[hmk17]

Sanctuary coming back is definitely a major help for the survive-ability of our HQ's and a power pieces.  Draigo rolling around with his 2+/2++ is always amusing too.

[Everon]

Draigo 2+/2++ w/ an apothecary. Ultimate tanking lawls. Follow them up with a purgation squad of psilencers or pyscannon with astral aim. Draigo tanks apothecary heals purgation spams shots at 4+ reroll all to hits, give them the psyammo equivalent for bigger guns and just troll away your death machine. Edited August 6, 2017 by Everon

[Ninjoe42]

I really like Astral aim honestly. I want to GoI a squad of Purgators with Psilencers into a blind corner at midfield. Just so they need to dedicate a full turn moving something into position just to take a shot at it. A really nice 24" denial zone

[TheMostGood]

I really like Astral aim honestly. I want to GoI a squad of Purgators with Psilencers into a blind corner at midfield. Just so they need to dedicate a full turn moving something into position just to take a shot at it. A really nice 24" denial zone

Or you can spend a CP and just teleport the purgators where they need to be! 

[Happy-inquisitor]

I really like Astral aim honestly. I want to GoI a squad of Purgators with Psilencers into a blind corner at midfield. Just so they need to dedicate a full turn moving something into position just to take a shot at it. A really nice 24" denial zone

 

If you play with a lot of LOS blocking terrain - as for example the current ITC guidance of making the ground level of all ruins LOS blocking - then it has a lot of powerful applications.

 

Also if you did decide to put a lot of your points into GM NDKs then you are relying on shooting to clear infantry on the upper levels of ruins so Astral Aim is well worth taking on one of them.

[Ninjoe42]

I'm wondering how Psilencers vs Psycannons compare against different troops or vehicles when upgraded...

 

24 Str 5 AP-1 shots doing d3 damage each or,

 

16 Str 8 AP-2 shots doing 1 damage each.

 

I feel like one is meant for hoards and the other is meant for heavy support, but with that d3 I just don't know!

[Corvus Fortis]

Astral Aim is great on shooty VenDread, standing after a LoS block. Most of the field is in range of its lascannon and autocannon/ML, but no lascannon can touch it. Deep striking is the only threat. 

 

Vortex doesn't look that useful, though. Our basic librarian can do the same for 5 wc(4 with BoP). Spending valuable CP to increase chances of cast is not too attarctive. There is a chance to through only 1 for damage. I see it potent in massive close combat battles, where enemy units stand tight. Otherwise, seem like weakest power so far.

[Prot]

Vortex of Doom is amazing. Essentially on an 11 it is insane. Overall it's actually better than the Orbital Bombardment Strategum in a psychic power. 

[Ninjoe42]

Vortex of Doom is amazing. Essentially on an 11 it is insane. Overall it's actually better than the Orbital Bombardment Strategum in a psychic power. 

 

See I'm really not sure about this one! It SOUNDS pretty cool...but when I look at the wording it says the closest possible model within 12". Obviously you're going to want to aim for clumps of people to get that 3" Vortex effect, but when I think about how armies are set up I don't think it'll happen that often. Consider the 2 usual scenarios;

 

Army is spread out: You're almost certainly not going to hit more than one unit. Maybe they've got a troop blop with Character support? BUT! Even if they do, will the CLOSEST model to YOU be within 3" of that Character?

 

Army is clumped: You're still only able to target the closest MODEL, so you'll need to aim it correctly to not hit the ablative armor of bubble wrap that extends too far away from other units. Going against Greys most people will be sure to bubble wrap their vehicles and important bits to prevent charging, so Vortexing will require some very careful (and sometimes impossible) casting positions.

 

 

Just my concern with it really. I think if you can target a particular large sized model it'll be great! In fact the larger the target the greater the 3" spread! Think of how much more area 3" from the base of an Imperial Knight covers than 3" from a Hormagaunt.

[Beams]

I think vortex depends heavily on what your playing against.

 

Tons of guard tanks next to each other? Vortex is suddenly OP.

 

Tons of guard infantry next to each other? Uh, maybe don't spend that CP

 

Lone Commander suits? That's what purge soul is for, I guess.

[Plasmablasts]

I'm wondering how Psilencers vs Psycannons compare against different troops or vehicles when upgraded...

 

24 Str 5 AP-1 shots doing d3 damage each or,

 

16 Str 8 AP-2 shots doing 1 damage each.

 

I feel like one is meant for hoards and the other is meant for heavy support, but with that d3 I just don't know!

So, I've tried some Mathammer on this. For each comparison, I've shown the standard effect followed by the effect with the stratagem active. All are calculated for a single model firing.

 

Against Guard (T3, 5+):

 

Psycannon: 1.39 > 1.67 kills

Psilencer: 1.33 > 1.67 kills

 

Against marines (T4, 3+):

 

Psycannon: 0.67 > 1.11 kills

Psilencer: 0.5 > 1.00 kills

 

For two wound models, I've used a conversion factor of 0.5 kills/unsaved wounding hit for the psycannon (I.e. You need to get two unsaved wounding hits to kill) and 0.75 for the Psilencer (as one in three unsaved wounds will need a second to kill).

 

Primaris Marines (T4, 3+, 2W):

 

Psycannon: 0.33 > 0.55 kills

Psilencer: 0.38 > 0.75 kills

 

Terminators (T4, 2+, 2W):

 

Psycannon: 0.22 > 0.42 kills

Psilencer: 0.19 > 0.5 kills

 

Leman Russ (T8, 3+):

 

Psycannon: 0.33 > 0.67 wounds

Psilencer: 0.33 > 1.00 wounds

 

(N.B. These are calculated assuming that the model moved and that the target doesn't have a cover save.)

 

So, although the psycannon clearly has the edge for getting wounds through, the psilencer's Dd3 often gives it the edge against muti-wound targets. The stratagem does give the psilencer quite a bit of help against terminators and Leman Russes.

 

Against T3 models, the stratagem doesn't actually affect the wound rolls, although the AP-1 helps still. (However, whether using 2CP to kill 6 guardsmen instead of 5 is worth it is a question I'll leave you to ponder...)

[Beams]

If your objective rolled is kill a unit, and the unit in question is a six man heavy weapon team, or only has 6 guardsman left, well, I'd say it's worth it...

[Seizeman]

Ultimately, vortex is a regular Smite. A harder to cast smite, but a smite nonetherless, wich we don't have easy access to anyway, so it is a welcome addition. Also, I have not seen it in practice yet, but I don't think it will be hard to hit a vehicle or monster so it affects several units by positioning it right with an unit like an NDK or an interceptor squad, specially considering how much armies tend to pile together in this edition.

 

On another subject, I think astral aim is pretty underwhelming and it should also remove all penalties to hit (because of moving or against flyers) to be usable. It is not that there aren't situations where it will be good, but that I can't find a justification to give it to a unit over any of the other powers "just in case I need it". Maybe on Voldus...

[Waking Dreamer]

Now that we know the full range of powers, what would be the preferred 2 sanctic powers for Draigo accompanied by an Apothecary and paladins? Still GoI and Purge Soul, or perhaps Sanctuary and say Vortex...since Draigo will most likely alpha strike in the face of the enemy, were they could be clumped together at the beginning to possibly get buffs from character auras...?

[Shagah]

For Draigo as for the rest of the army I would not have a standard psychic loadout, it would depend on my opponent their makeup and what I planned to do with my lads.

 

As an aside I do not see anyone talking up Hammerhand at all.  For me in the new world of having to double your Strength vs the enemy Toughness to wound on a 2+, I think Hammerhand looks great.  Adding 1 to the dice role rather than your strength turns 4+ to wound to 3+, and 3+ to wound into 2+.  Heck we can charge our weakest guys into the toughest model on the board and be wounding on a 5+ at worst.  I think it is definitely worth more consideration.  No wonder it is not spamable.

[Constantine Valdor]

For Draigo as for the rest of the army I would not have a standard psychic loadout, it would depend on my opponent their makeup and what I planned to do with my lads.

 

As an aside I do not see anyone talking up Hammerhand at all.  For me in the new world of having to double your Strength vs the enemy Toughness to wound on a 2+, I think Hammerhand looks great.  Adding 1 to the dice role rather than your strength turns 4+ to wound to 3+, and 3+ to wound into 2+.  Heck we can charge our weakest guys into the toughest model on the board and be wounding on a 5+ at worst.  I think it is definitely worth more consideration.  No wonder it is not spamable.

 

I agree, Hammerhand is excellent this edition, and I totally overlooked it at first. Paired with the Brotherhood Champion, you can Wound a Titan on a 4+, or a 3+ if he's your Warlord and you charged that turn. The damage multiplier is stupidly good imo. In my Paladin beatstick unit, I'd probably take Hammerhand, Gate, and Sanctuary on a character, as our two slightly different Smites and shooting buff isn't really conducive to stabbing the enemy with Falchions or Halberds.

[Muaddib]

 

 

For Draigo as for the rest of the army I would not have a standard psychic loadout, it would depend on my opponent their makeup and what I planned to do with my lads.

 

As an aside I do not see anyone talking up Hammerhand at all. For me in the new world of having to double your Strength vs the enemy Toughness to wound on a 2+, I think Hammerhand looks great. Adding 1 to the dice role rather than your strength turns 4+ to wound to 3+, and 3+ to wound into 2+. Heck we can charge our weakest guys into the toughest model on the board and be wounding on a 5+ at worst. I think it is definitely worth more consideration. No wonder it is not spamable.

I agree, Hammerhand is excellent this edition, and I totally overlooked it at first. Paired with the Brotherhood Champion, you can Wound a Titan on a 4+, or a 3+ if he's your Warlord and you charged that turn. The damage multiplier is stupidly good imo. In my Paladin beatstick unit, I'd probably take Hammerhand, Gate, and Sanctuary on a character, as our two slightly different Smites and shooting buff isn't really conducive to stabbing the enemy with Falchions or Halberds.

Same here. I'll play GoI on pallies and regulars ndk (if I take one), hammerhand on interceptors, and Sanctuary (and maybe astral aim) on my characters. I'll try to take the others two at least with one guy though, because sometimes dealing wounds is the better option.