Lore Question.

[Xenith]

They read, paint small models and play miniature wargames.

[Azekai]

Yes. That's sort of what I meant. Like, where they can act normally. But they have a constant itching at the back of their mind with extremely volatile tempers and are always eager for battle. So they often have arenas battles to satisfy their blood lust.

 

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Banging your head on the wall and self-mutilation is acting normally?

 

[BrightStarNova]

Not that aspect. I mean the having the constant itch for the thrill of battle.

 

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[MoK]

 

 

Yes. That's sort of what I meant. Like, where they can act normally. But they have a constant itching at the back of their mind with extremely volatile tempers and are always eager for battle. So they often have arenas battles to satisfy their blood lust.

 

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Banging your head on the wall and self-mutilation is acting normally?

 

 

If you are a Khorne worshipping, genetically engineered, mentally butchered murdering machine, yes.

[Marshal Loss]

World Eaters (in 40k) without the insanity aspect are not World Eaters though. It's part of their tragedy, and the trade-off that is inherent in all interactions with Chaos. Having families and marrying daemons etc, as marines, is just so bizarre I don't think it's plausible at all.

 

I'd read Betrayer & Talon of Horus for the two most notable recent depictions of World Eaters in both 30k and 40k to see where they're at currently. They're both by the same author but were both widely acclaimed so it's fair to say they're excellent books. Lore in the 8th ed, 6th ed, 4/5th, 3.5, 3rd, 2nd edition codexes will all help show a consistent approach to their insanity, if you give them a look; this is not a retcon and I suspect this comic(s) is an isolated source in its approach to the Khorne Berzerkers. I just flipped open the 2nd ed dex and in the tiny bit of lore present it mentions that they're known to throw themselves on their swords, so it's probably fair to say the whole 'insanity' theme has been going on for a while.

[BrightStarNova]

That was BloodQuest an official series among several other comics that were official a decade or so ago and they all supported that theory. That's why I like the older lore more. Characters were more developed and better than one dimensional characters. They had goals, ambitions, rivalries, grudges, schemes for revenge, hated foes, nemesis, friends, people that they cared about. They had much more to them than simple basics of attack and do nothing but attack. There was even a comic where a berserker was trying to be honorable against an orc in combat and let him grab a weapon, then another orc crushed him in a giant claw and said he was didn't like how the berserker kept yapping too much about honor.

 

There were also disgusting aspects like in a Kal Jericho comic Kal needed to escape and the fat corrupt imperial preacher was holding him back, so he tossed the preacher to the mutants and they showed him roasting on a spit fire in the next panel saying that the mutants ate well for quite a while because the preacher was so fat.

 

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[Panzer]

They still have all those things. Berzerker are a special case tho. Those are madman. Any thought that's not about Berzerker stuff causes them intense pain so they pretty much get re-wired to such a degree they don't even have an interest in doing anything else. They don't do 'normal Astartes' things anymore because they don't think like 'normal Astartes' anymore.

Being a Berzerker is leagues above being a Khorne marked Marine when it comes to being a crazy bloodthirsty bastard.

 

Also nothing in the current fluff says Berzerker are just KILL MAIM BURN and nothing else. Of course they can restrain themselves to some degree to allow a worthy opponent to pick up a weapon or whatever (emphasis on worthy). But their ultimate goal is still to murder him. They are super bloodthirsty but they aren't mindless.

[BrightStarNova]

Good. That's what I meant. Like, they can be normal but have such extreme tempers that they can be calm one moment and in a frenzy the next, like when they aren't fighting they might have a burning pain at the back of their minds from keeping in all that rage and not releasing that rage in battle. Sort of like a person who is always ready to strike.

 

Not sure how to explain what I'm trying to ask/say.

 

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[Panzer]

Uhm..I'm really not sure you understand what everyone is trying to tell you. Berzerker are definitely not normal lol

Yes they can endure it..for a little bit. Definitely not to a degree to have 'normal' freetime activities like other Khorne Marines could have.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Even before the heresy, World Eaters (who all had the butcher's nails) were starting to descend into blood madness. Combine that with dedicating themselves to khorne and a ten thousand year long existence and their ability to think about anything besides splitting skulls is pretty much gone. I can't imagine bezerkers doing anything in their spare time that doesn't involve preparing/practicing for war or just banging their head against the wall because they are pining for battle.

[BrightStarNova]

I understand but I'm trying to rationalize old lore to fit in with new lore.

 

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[Panzer]

Berzerker didn't change much from old lore. What you are talking about are cheesy comics which apparently didn't care much about the existing lore even back then.

[Lord Asvaldir]

That's the problem you can't. GW has never been great about making their lore continuous especially considering they just introduce new units all the time that weren't a thing before, though the new primaris marines are an exception to that. Yes some elements of the lore never change like the core aspects of the traitor legions but you're never going to find current lore that supports bezerkers having things like deamonette wives.

[BrightStarNova]

Seems like Blood Angels would probably be the closest to sane Berserkers aside from Undivided maybe?

 

I Apologize And I Hope I'm Not Bothering Any Of You.

 

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[Panzer]

Certain Blood Angels chapters or any non-Berzerker Khorne Marine. The problem is, I think, that you don't seem to understand the difference between Berzerker and other Khorne Marines.

[BrightStarNova]

I do, but I'm not sure how to explain . Like In battle they could use the figurines and of Berserkers but they would be normal Khornate Marines instead of butchers nails berserkers? Like some that are Non World Eaters followers that don't use them. Like they make mention of Khornate Marked Marines that are NOT Berserkers driving the Rhinos in some examples.  I'm sorry I don't know how to phrase the questions better.

 

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[BrightStarNova]

I might make a new topic for Marines from other Cults, but this topic is about Khornate Marines in particular.

 

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[BrightStarNova]

I still don't know how to properly phrase what I want to ask or say. I apologize if I was bothering any of you. How do I delete a topic? Sorry for bothering any of you. :(

 

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[Apostle of the 30th Host]

To put it in its most simple form: Not all Khorne worshippers are Berzerkers.

The problem with what you're saying is that Berzerkers would not behave the way you want them to - they are mental - and those comics are probably not the best source of accurate lore from any period, regardless of issues with the new stuff (i.e. Daemonettes aren't going to submit to a Khorne Marine and be his wife; Khorne and Slaanesh don't get on; technically, Daemonettes aren't even female...).

So the first point is that, assuming this is exploring ideas for your own lore, forget about Berzerkers.

*All World Eaters are Berzerkers, and I am fairly certain there is lore for new Berzerkers being created in 40k for use in other warbands, but there are many Khorne Worshipping Chaos Space Marines and they are totally different.

 

So, going along the lines of a Khornate Chaos Warband, there is much more room for what you want.

- If you haven't already, watch the Spartacus TV series. I think that is a pretty accurate portrayal of what you're after and is very in keeping with Khorne and the 30k pre-chaos World Eaters and their origins. I think there is a lot you can draw from this for inspiration, and I know it is a poor answer to just tell you to watch it, but it will be much more beneficial for your concept if you just do it yourself.

- In the newer lore, almost all Khorne worshippers are portrayed as mindless, savage killers. They are still, quite likely to be unhinged, living in the warp does that to you and the slaughter doesn't help, but they don't have to be all about the killing. In the old lore though, Khorne was sometimes seen as more on an honourable god of martial prowess, not just mindless slaughter. This has changed, but with a Khorne Warband, you can make this work. For example I remember seeing a passage where they said that Khorne worshippers wanted a good fight, and only fought enemies considered worthy of their attentions - ignoring civilians who were beneath them and of no interest to Khorne. 

- There is obviously room to do what you want, but I would avoid that comic as a resource as it is questionable.

- Best bet would perhaps be to go with a renegade chapter, a newly created one that had a similar culture to the gladiators of Rome, that gradually fell to Khorne. Obviously they will be increasingly unstable, but if they are newly renegade, you can go into detail of the build up and fall and how they were (maybe even Khorne v Slaanesh competing for influence as you have aspects of both) without going too far towards the Berzerker end.

 

 

Also, stop apologising. It's fine. Sometimes it is hard to think of how to put an idea into words and we are happy to help - nothing wrong with a bit of debate while you formulate ideas. Might be better off in the Lore section though if you're looking to expand into designing a Warband etc. 

 

Hope that is useful to you anyway.

[BrightStarNova]

So how would a person use them as Khornate Warriors with the same rules and such as Berzerkers? Just say they are Khornate Warriors and not full Berserkers? Is that really that easy to just do and say that and have that be plausible as they are merely Khornate Warriors with the Mark instead of full fledged Berserkers?

 

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[Apostle of the 30th Host]

So how would a person use them as Khornate Warriors with the same rules and such as Berzerkers? Just say they are Khornate Warriors and not full Berserkers? Is that really that easy to just do and say that and have that be plausible as they are merely Khornate Warriors with the Mark instead of full fledged Berserkers?

 

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It's easy. You can basically do what you want when it comes to that. If you want to use the Berzerker rules, that's fine. The way keywords work in 40k you might have to give everything the World Eaters keyword, but you can just paint them differently, model them yourself instead of using the existing models (which wear World Eater armour specifically), and say they are your own made up Warband.

No one will care. You can use the rules to represent whatever your vision of the army is. 

 

 

Edit: If you want to build some lore around it, look at the Viking/Norse Berzerkers. They were pretty normal (if a bit weird) usually but got fired up, took narcotics etc., before battle to unleash the Berzerker. All of GWs IP have mixed historical influences so there is no reason you can't mix the gladiator stuff with the Norse for your own lore. 

They can be normal marines who take something / do rituals etc before battle to get the Berzerker stats.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Apostle of the 30th Host

[Panzer]

Why do you even want to use them as Berzerker if that's not what you want from their fluff? Just use Chosen, Raptors, Chaos Marines or whatever and give them the Mark of Khorne.

Give them the World Eater Legion keyword, say they are a warband that works very close to how World Eater work but without using the Nails and avoid using Berzerker and call it a day.

Or use the Renegade Legion trait for a sweet advance&charge special rule for all your Khorne Chaos Marines.

[BrightStarNova]

I love the fighting style of Berserker's more than their lore. They are fun to pile a bunch of berserkers in rhinos, push them forward and have them slaughter any opponents that get in their way. But the lore also matters a lot and was trying to find a way I would like them in their lore.

 

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[Apostle of the 30th Host]

I love the fighting style of Berserker's more than their lore. They are fun to pile a bunch of berserkers in rhinos, push them forward and have them slaughter any opponents that get in their way. But the lore also matters a lot and was trying to find a way I would like them in their lore.

 

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That's fair enough. I edited this in above, but now the conversation has moved on it is easier to put it as a reply:

 

'If you want to build some lore around it, look at the Viking/Norse Berzerkers. They were pretty normal (if a bit weird) usually but got fired up, took narcotics etc., before battle to unleash the Berzerker. All of GWs IP have mixed historical influences so there is no reason you can't mix the gladiator stuff with the Norse for your own lore. 

They can be normal marines who take something / do rituals etc before battle to get the Berzerker stats.'

[Panzer]

Well if it's just about that you can do the same thing with Chosen or Possessed or Chaos Marines as well.

 

Sorry to say but you won't find a way to like Berzerkers in their lore. They are what they are. What you are searching for are regular Khorne worshipping Chaos Marines.