Lore Question.

[BrightStarNova]

Is there a way to delete topics when they are complete?

 

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[Panzer]

No. You just stop responding and hope other people stop as well. Once you created a topic it's out of your hand.

Although you could try and ask a mod to close it for you if you really want to.

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

I think, as the person who started it, you can go into the edit function and lock it/mark as complete. Not 100% though. Might need a mod to do it for you. See what sfPanzer said.

 

Hopefully you have your answers here. I would say that if you like the rules, but not the lore, the best way to go is counts as. People are pretty cool when it comes to that as long as it all makes sense and is clear in the game.

If you like the counts as option, head over to the Liber section for lore. There is a Chaos section where we can help turn these ideas into some lore you like for your own army. There are quite a few people there who always try and respond to help you with an idea.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/276-liber-chaotica/

[Xenith]

Don't know if it's been said, but read the Crimson Path series and Talon of Horus. Both feature slightly less insane berserkers.

 

Generally, the clue is in the name. Berserkers. They're all quite mad.

[BrightStarNova]

Yes. I've found occasions and lore like even in the 7th edition codex where it says they are normal and retain their intellect, but are brutally savage when in battle.

 

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[Xenith]

If you want to get even more info the mind of a berserker, read all of Andy Smillie's Flesh Tearers books. Namely Sons of Wrath, Flesh of Cretacia and the Trial of Gabriel Seth.

 

They do a really good job of showing how the Tearers try to restrain the rage, and act normally, even though they have this buzzing urge to kill at all times.

[BrightStarNova]

Yes. That's what I meant, where they can act normal but have to restrain their urge to fight . Like, A person who is always angry, even when they are not angry.

 

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[Lord Asvaldir]

Another book that would give you some good information on khorne followers is Liber Chaotica. It's an old book and difficult to find, but one of the best ever made for chaos lore.

[Xenith]

Yes. That's what I meant, where they can act normal but have to restrain their urge to fight . Like, A person who is always angry, even when they are not angry.

 

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Yup, read those Flesh Tearer books, they seem to be what you are looking for!

[Arkangilos]

The guys in the Blood Quest comics weren't berserkers. They were Khorne worshippers, but not berserkers. Berserkers are very specific.

 

In fact, the one you linked wasn't even a space marine, it was a low level daemon prince that most likely came from a normal human.

 

A lot of who they fight in the beginning are regular renegades fighting for power, most were mutants and humans, none of them were berserkers.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Berzerker88]

Precisely, when a World Eater is not in battle they are preparing for the next one. They do not celebrate, the battle itself is the celebration. So they'll spend their offtime training, sparring, polishing thropies, and hosting gladiatorial games when the 'resting' lasts for too long. They obviously do not take wives nor have children, and probably consider those things as weaknesses... I do not think a Khornate Berzerker would be capable of even understanding the notions of love nor sexuality as anything other than base, animalistic emotions tied to the hated Slaneesh.

 

There was one Berzerker who said "There is no peace, only time wasted between battles" and as such you can expect a warband to tear itself apart if the command structure fails to deliver them to glorious battle in time.

[Panzer]

Well they could understand love and whatnot but the Nails conditioned Berzerker into not liking anything besides killing and fighting since everything else is just pain for them.

[Berzerker88]

Well they could understand love and whatnot but the Nails conditioned Berzerker into not liking anything besides killing and fighting since everything else is just pain for them.

That's the point, the nails amplify your adrenaline production to such a degree that you end up like an empty husk when not in combat, and probably in a world of pain from overexertion of the body that inevitably happens when you go berserk. Think of the last time you pushed your body to it's limits, be it in sport, a fight, the gym, or a survival situation. You don't feel much pain at the time thanks to adrenaline, but afterwards... As a martial artist I can attest to the pain of every single movement, and that's even without taking any actual damage, because your muscles are quite literally torn apart without you noticing.

 

Now apply that to someone who has a set of implants on their head that pushes any adrenaline rush into a berserker rage. Said rages do exist in real life, they come naturally when your brain chooses to fight rather than flee in a real survival situation (the reason many soldiers report feeling intense anger when they believe they are about to die, which often ends up motivating them to fight even harder and overcome their situation).

 

The old Norse berserkers and some Celtic cultures formed warrior cults that turn that instinct into a technique, and the sagas mention them acting like maddened wolves or bears that were left like husks for days after battle. Some mention them using drugs (mushrooms) while other state they induced it through meditation. However, these were dangerous even outside of battle and were eventually outlawed.

 

So with all this in mind, I doubt a Khorne Berzerker, who is either in an insane, artificially amplified frenzy, or completely drained both physically and emotionally, is able to feel things such as love. Specially when we are talking about a Space Marine taken from his home planet as a teenager and trained from then on to become a killing machine. In fact, most loyalist chapters are asexual and often sterile, with a few exceptions. A mad worshipper of the Blood Father may feel and understand friendship or loyalty, but love? :P

 

Tl;dr the concepts of romance and sexuality are the antithesis of a devout worshiper of the God of hatred and violence. Leave that touchy-feely crap to Slaneesh :D

Edited August 7, 2017 by Berzerker88

[Panzer]

 

Well they could understand love and whatnot but the Nails conditioned Berzerker into not liking anything besides killing and fighting since everything else is just pain for them.

That's the point, the nails amplify your adrenaline production to such a degree that you end up like an empty husk when not in combat, and probably in a world of pain from overexertion of the body that inevitably happens when you go berserk. Think of the last time you pushed your body to it's limits, be it in sport, a fight, the gym, or a survival situation. You don't feel much pain at the time thanks to adrenaline, but afterwards... As a martial artist I can attest to the pain of every single movement, and that's even without taking any actual damage, because your muscles are quite literally torn apart without you noticing.

 

Now apply that to someone who has a set of implants on their head that pushes any adrenaline rush into a berserker rage. Said rages do exist in real life, they come naturally when your brain chooses to fight rather than flee in a real survival situation (the reason many soldiers report feeling intense anger when they believe they are about to die, which often ends up motivating them to fight even harder and overcome their situation).

 

The old Norse berserkers and some Celtic cultures formed warrior cults that turn that instinct into a technique, and the sagas mention them acting like maddened wolves or bears that were left like husks for days after battle. Some mention them using drugs (mushrooms) while other state they induced it through meditation. However, these were dangerous even outside of battle and were eventually outlawed.

 

So with all this in mind, I doubt a Khorne Berzerker, who is either in an insane, artificially amplified frenzy, or completely drained both physically and emotionally, is able to feel things such as love. Specially when we are talking about a Space Marine taken from his home planet as a teenager and trained from then on to become a killing machine. In fact, most loyalist chapters are asexual and often sterile, with a few exceptions. A mad worshipper of the Blood Father may feel and understand friendship or loyalty, but love?

 

Tl;dr the concepts of romance and sexuality are the antithesis of a devout worshiper of the God of hatred and violence. Leave that touchy-feely crap to Slaneesh XD

 

That's not what I was talking about. Them getting conditioned into being violent beings has nothing to do with adrenaline and the pain they suffer from when thinking or feeling normal things has nothing to do with generic muscle pain. It's pain caused directly in their brain from the nails just because your brain did something the Nails didn't want it to do.

The Nails are ultimatively a tool to condition warriors so they have no choice but to fight in the arena. Normally the victims would die early from such a life but Marines are different hence why their effect is much more dramatic for them.

[Berzerker88]

 

 

Well they could understand love and whatnot but the Nails conditioned Berzerker into not liking anything besides killing and fighting since everything else is just pain for them.

 

That's the point, the nails amplify your adrenaline production to such a degree that you end up like an empty husk when not in combat, and probably in a world of pain from overexertion of the body that inevitably happens when you go berserk. Think of the last time you pushed your body to it's limits, be it in sport, a fight, the gym, or a survival situation. You don't feel much pain at the time thanks to adrenaline, but afterwards... As a martial artist I can attest to the pain of every single movement, and that's even without taking any actual damage, because your muscles are quite literally torn apart without you noticing.

Now apply that to someone who has a set of implants on their head that pushes any adrenaline rush into a berserker rage. Said rages do exist in real life, they come naturally when your brain chooses to fight rather than flee in a real survival situation (the reason many soldiers report feeling intense anger when they believe they are about to die, which often ends up motivating them to fight even harder and overcome their situation).

The old Norse berserkers and some Celtic cultures formed warrior cults that turn that instinct into a technique, and the sagas mention them acting like maddened wolves or bears that were left like husks for days after battle. Some mention them using drugs (mushrooms) while other state they induced it through meditation. However, these were dangerous even outside of battle and were eventually outlawed.

So with all this in mind, I doubt a Khorne Berzerker, who is either in an insane, artificially amplified frenzy, or completely drained both physically and emotionally, is able to feel things such as love. Specially when we are talking about a Space Marine taken from his home planet as a teenager and trained from then on to become a killing machine. In fact, most loyalist chapters are asexual and often sterile, with a few exceptions. A mad worshipper of the Blood Father may feel and understand friendship or loyalty, but love? :P

Tl;dr the concepts of romance and sexuality are the antithesis of a devout worshiper of the God of hatred and violence. Leave that touchy-feely crap to Slaneesh XD

That's not what I was talking about. Them getting conditioned into being violent beings has nothing to do with adrenaline and the pain they suffer from when thinking or feeling normal things has nothing to do with generic muscle pain. It's pain caused directly in their brain from the nails just because your brain did something the Nails didn't want it to do.

The Nails are ultimatively a tool to condition warriors so they have no choice but to fight in the arena. Normally the victims would die early from such a life but Marines are different hence why their effect is much more dramatic for them.

Where are you getting that from? Neither in Talon of Horus, Betrayer, Traitor Legions nor the Index says they feel pain when thinking of other things than killing. Talon of Horus had them with the 'husk' reaction I described, getting worse over time, while Betrayer stated each one was affected differently by the nails.

[BrightStarNova]

Well what about Normal Space Marines With The Khornate Mark? Would they be like normal guys that like to have fun, party, wives, and children like in WarHammer Fantasy, but still seek the favor of that particular patron when in battle? Like normal Space Marines that COUNT AS Berserkers in Battle instead of being the actual berserkers in Lore? Some people said that would be a more plausible idea, and used Rhino Driver Space Marines in a Khornate Army as an example.

 

I had other questions about the other legions, but since this topic was still active, I was wondering if that was plausible. Normal Khornate Marines that don't use the nails, but merely have the mark instead.

 

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[Iron Father Ferrum]

No, no, no.  Space Marines don't have wives and children, they don't even have those urges.  Even Slaaneshi Marines, for all their sensation-seeking, are chemically gelded and hypnotically conditioned against that sort of thing.

[BrightStarNova]

No. Not so much the wives and children aspect. That's in WarHammer Fantasy. I didn't mean that aspect. I meant the acting like normal guys when not in battle even though on the aggressive side, but normal and sane. But letting loose and going berserk when in battle. What I'm asking keeps not getting asked the right way.

 

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[Lord Asvaldir]

What do khornate marines without the nails crack open a cold one with the guys in between battles and get together for a movie night? No, in the grimdark realm of 40k there are no  parties, especially for khornate warriors who are on the path of becoming dedicated warriors of khorne. They can't let loose, they have gone down the rabbit hole of devoting their lives to the god of bloodshed and murder. What time they spend outside battle is probably only spent in preparation for battle, gladiatorial matches and maybe meditation. 

 

Off topic, but chaos warriors in warhammer fantasy don't have wives and parties either. Low level marauder warriors like Norscans and Kurgans sure, but not full blown chaos warriors. Just like in 40k warriors who fully devote themselves to the path of chaos dwell on little else. 

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Well they could understand love and whatnot but the Nails conditioned Berzerker into not liking anything besides killing and fighting since everything else is just pain for them.

That's the point, the nails amplify your adrenaline production to such a degree that you end up like an empty husk when not in combat, and probably in a world of pain from overexertion of the body that inevitably happens when you go berserk. Think of the last time you pushed your body to it's limits, be it in sport, a fight, the gym, or a survival situation. You don't feel much pain at the time thanks to adrenaline, but afterwards... As a martial artist I can attest to the pain of every single movement, and that's even without taking any actual damage, because your muscles are quite literally torn apart without you noticing.

Now apply that to someone who has a set of implants on their head that pushes any adrenaline rush into a berserker rage. Said rages do exist in real life, they come naturally when your brain chooses to fight rather than flee in a real survival situation (the reason many soldiers report feeling intense anger when they believe they are about to die, which often ends up motivating them to fight even harder and overcome their situation).

The old Norse berserkers and some Celtic cultures formed warrior cults that turn that instinct into a technique, and the sagas mention them acting like maddened wolves or bears that were left like husks for days after battle. Some mention them using drugs (mushrooms) while other state they induced it through meditation. However, these were dangerous even outside of battle and were eventually outlawed.

So with all this in mind, I doubt a Khorne Berzerker, who is either in an insane, artificially amplified frenzy, or completely drained both physically and emotionally, is able to feel things such as love. Specially when we are talking about a Space Marine taken from his home planet as a teenager and trained from then on to become a killing machine. In fact, most loyalist chapters are asexual and often sterile, with a few exceptions. A mad worshipper of the Blood Father may feel and understand friendship or loyalty, but love?

Tl;dr the concepts of romance and sexuality are the antithesis of a devout worshiper of the God of hatred and violence. Leave that touchy-feely crap to Slaneesh XD

That's not what I was talking about. Them getting conditioned into being violent beings has nothing to do with adrenaline and the pain they suffer from when thinking or feeling normal things has nothing to do with generic muscle pain. It's pain caused directly in their brain from the nails just because your brain did something the Nails didn't want it to do.

The Nails are ultimatively a tool to condition warriors so they have no choice but to fight in the arena. Normally the victims would die early from such a life but Marines are different hence why their effect is much more dramatic for them.

Where are you getting that from? Neither in Talon of Horus, Betrayer, Traitor Legions nor the Index says they feel pain when thinking of other things than killing. Talon of Horus had them with the 'husk' reaction I described, getting worse over time, while Betrayer stated each one was affected differently by the nails.

 

That's directly from how Angrons Nails function got described by the Emperor in Emperor of Mankind. Tho it's possible that the Berzerkers Nails are not as extreme since they are only a reverse engineered version afaik.

The outcome should be the same tho. Whoever has the Nails implanted gets conditioned into being a bloodthirsty killing machine that can't enjoy anything else.

[BrightStarNova]

Somebody told me that with Chaos it had some of the most creative freedom and that if an idea could make sense in a good narrative term it could be possible with good writing, and also through pacts and contracts and such and that some ideas would make sense. Such as a pact like: If Contract Signer wins specific battle or provides agreed upon number of souls, skulls, blood, resources,items, ancient artifact or generic contract/quest item, that would make sense for unusual requests and scenarios. They said have fun with the story and go with whatever you like as long as it keeps with the lore in most ways and makes sense that you could do whatever you want. Like they could use rules of said faction to even follow some created patron but using rules of counts as, but is considered such and such in terms of story. They said be creative and do what you like and that most ideas are open when it comes to Chaos, moreso than any other faction. Like If contract signing lord wants some desire from his patron such as increased strength, keeping the sanity of his men, or whatever they want would be an option in the lore if they made a pact that made sense. Such as slaying so many opponents, enjoying so many sensations, trying so many pleasures, acquiring so many artifacts, or obtaining certain or so many items to fulfill a contract that would make more ideas plausible and to have whatever they want if there was a good reason that would benefit the patron and the contract signer. But particularly if the patron gains from the contract.

 

They said they were basing that on the older lore but that would still make sense and be valid today.

 

They also said: It's your army and you can do whatever you want to be creative as long as it fits the lore in some or most ways. They also said that Demon Princes and Chaos Lords that are awarded followers and Demon Worlds can have them be however they want them to be.

 

Hopefully they are right and that makes sense. I want to be creative, but so many people following the new lore ignore the old lore and say: Oh this has to be this way or that way. No you cant do this or that.  I like the idea of creative freedom.

 

Again, I'm not sure what I'm trying to ask or say. Also, that wasn't about any particular Chaos Patron, but the faction as a whole. Particularly Undivided.

 

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[Azekai]

You can be creative. But what you are describing just don't sound like berserkers. If I came up with a fluff conception of plague marines, only instead of them being diseased they had elemental powers, you would say 'that is fine, but why are they plague marines then?' By the same token, if berserkers are psychotics driven to slaughter by their implants, but you don't want that aspect to be a part of your warband, then just don't have berserkers.

I mean, you could have 'reasonable' berserkers, but that sort of defeats the whole purpose. Worship of the Blood God is not something you want to half-ass.

[BrightStarNova]

Well there would be a plausible explanation for that possibly like in an old show where they had people create and modify a virus that had the identical abilities of vampires, but they weren't magical creatures so much as a disease that gave them the same abilities, and the need for blood was explained a scientific way about the virus. That would be a plausible way to use plague marines but not have them bloated and disgusting. There was also a book where they spread poison and plague through items that when people touched the contaminated items they would get the plague, rather than getting sick and bloated like the traditional plague marines. There was also a story where a guy who was an old and respected warrior made a pact with a bloodletter, and became young and strong again after agreeing to the pact to fight in the name of that particular patron. There was also a story where noise marines saved people. Not so much because they were heroes, but because they loved the praise and adulation of the people and they "Felt Good" For doing it, and that was why more than any reasons of nobility or heroism.

 

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[Panzer]

Of course it's your army and you can do whatever you want....but you created a thread to ask for opinions. You got our opinions. If you don't like them then it's up to you to ignore them or not but it would kinda defeat the purpose of this thread.

Again, what you are describing are generic Khorne worshipping Chaos Marines. Not real Berzerkers. Either you accept that or you go and make up your own fluff but you wouldn't need us for that then.

[MoK]

cult troops like Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Rubricea are pretty strict on what they do. They are exactly as described in their Codex descriptions. Everything they do on or off the battlefield is in the name of their god. They don't do what you might consider 'normal' things. Legion troops however, or those with the Mark of Whatever, are just normal troops, they fix their kit, they sit around chatting and joking, they might even write journals and play games, they might engage in theoretical tactical discussions. Even 'normal' Worldeaters are not completely crazy all the time, they do engage in 'normal' things. Berzerkers however are the Khornate troops who have gone too far and they have almost been lost to the nails, all they want to do is kill.

I use Berzerker models for all my Worldeaters, Standard Chaos Marine squads, biker squads, Havoc squads, all done in Berzerker armour. The difference is that actual Berzerkers have Bolt/plasma pistols and chain axes, whilst my other guys have bolters, special/heavy weapons and chainswords.