Lore Question.

[Panzer]

Even 'normal' Worldeaters are not completely crazy all the time, they do engage in 'normal' things.

Something like that doesn't exist tho. All World Eaters got the Nails implanted.

[Plaguecaster]

Apart from the librarians who literally died because of it or a few astartes still alive from the days the WE were known as the Warhounds (though these ones did not side with Angron and were usually killed) . The nails were also impossible to remove without killing them

[Closet Skeleton]

'If you want to build some lore around it, look at the Viking/Norse Berzerkers. They were pretty normal (if a bit weird) usually but got fired up, took narcotics etc., before battle to unleash the Berzerker. All of GWs IP have mixed historical influences so there is no reason you can't mix the gladiator stuff with the Norse for your own lore. 

They can be normal marines who take something / do rituals etc before battle to get the Berzerker stats.'

 

 

Viking berserkers are pretty much a 'historical' myth. The evidence for them existing is basically just not there. You can still use that myth for inspiration (as pretty much every fantasy game has at this point) but historical research won't actually help since there's no reality behind the cliche to dig deeper into. The best piece of evidence for Berserkr is from Snorri Sturlson's Heimskringla in a passage talking about the bodyguards of the first King of Norway; Odin (yes, that Odin, so its about as accurate to interpret the court of Osiris, first pharoah of Egypt, as actual people).

 

You can find a lot of 'information' on berserkers in various books but it basically all goes back to people copying and re-copying the same dubious speculation without checking to see how it actually matched up to the stuff actually written in old norse (a language most people who write about berserkers can't read).

 

There are a lot of characters with various super powers, some of them rage related, in Norse (and Irish) sagas but the simple fact is that most of these characters are never identified as Berserkers despite getting lumped in with them by modern researchers. Stories about super rage powers are quite common throughout the world, probably due to not being particularly imaginative as a concept.

 

If you really want inspiration you're better looking at fiction.

 

Some mention them using drugs (mushrooms) while other state they induced it through meditation. However, these were dangerous even outside of battle and were eventually outlawed.

 

 

There's no ancient source for drugs (and especially not mushrooms) being used to gain super rage powers. That comes entirely from modern speculation by early neuroscientists like Dr Howard Fabing (who likely never knew old norse) and was pretty decisively shown to be unlikely by scientific testing.

 

Various magic spells and potions are attested in the historical record but there's the full existent of the link between them and the individuals identified as Berserkr in the Norse Sagas is that Odin (aka the chief god who had a hand in most things) was associated with both. There are characters in Norse sagas who can shapeshift in order to win battles and there is a connection between cultural ideas about shapeshifting and shamanistic practices that involved drugs but its still speculative to claim that there when an ancient text says a "a man can change into a bear and become immune to weapons" that actually means "this literary character with magical powers was based on real guys who took drugs that turned them into super soldiers". The chivalric hero Roland was supposedly based on a real living historical person but nobody says his magic sword that could create valleys by hacking at the earth represents something from actual Frankish military history (and the norse sagas are kind of contemporary with the earliest chivalric romances and would have had overlapping target audiences).

 

The fact that Norse superhuman rage powers were associated with magic and shapeshifting kind of makes them a bad fit for khorne berserkers.

[MoK]

 

Even 'normal' Worldeaters are not completely crazy all the time, they do engage in 'normal' things.

Something like that doesn't exist tho. All World Eaters got the Nails implanted.

I'm not saying they don't, but some have come to a sort of equilibrium with them, and are capable of some sort of normality. What I mean by 'normal' is non-Berzerker Worldeaters. Edited August 8, 2017 by MoK

[Panzer]

 

 

Even 'normal' Worldeaters are not completely crazy all the time, they do engage in 'normal' things.

Something like that doesn't exist tho. All World Eaters got the Nails implanted.

I'm not saying they don't, but some have come to a sort of equilibrium with them, and are capable of some sort of normality. What I mean by 'normal' is non-Berzerker Worldeaters.

 

I know that you meant non-Berzerker Worldeaters but as said, they all got the Nails implanted. It's pretty much the core of the World Eater fluff.

[MoK]

 

 

 

 

Even 'normal' Worldeaters are not completely crazy all the time, they do engage in 'normal' things.

Something like that doesn't exist tho. All World Eaters got the Nails implanted.

I'm not saying they don't, but some have come to a sort of equilibrium with them, and are capable of some sort of normality. What I mean by 'normal' is non-Berzerker Worldeaters.

I know that you meant non-Berzerker Worldeaters but as said, they all got the Nails implanted. It's pretty much the core of the World Eater fluff.

 

I know, I never said they didn't. lol.

[BrightStarNova]

I wasn't ignoring the opinions. I was saying what other people told me as well.

 

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[Dhar'Neth]

If I remember correctly, the old fluff stated that "Not all bereserkers are World Eaters but all World Eaters are bereserkers"

[Panzer]

That's pretty much the current fluff as well.

[Azekai]

If I remember correctly, the old fluff stated that "Not all bereserkers are World Eaters but all World Eaters are bereserkers"

I think they basically said that in the 6th ed 'dex...

 

Which is weird, because you can take other units and give them the World Eaters legion keyword; you can have WE havocs or raptors... from a fluff perspective I suppose they all have the Butcher's Nails (and that is what the +1 A trait represents, that frenzied bloodlust) but from a tabletop perspective all WE are pretty explicitly *not* berzerkers. Seems like a bit of a subtle but key change to me.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Azekai

[Panzer]

 

If I remember correctly, the old fluff stated that "Not all bereserkers are World Eaters but all World Eaters are bereserkers"

I think they basically said that in the 6th ed 'dex...

 

Which is weird, because you can take other units and give them the World Eaters legion keyword; you can have WE havocs or raptors... from a fluff perspective I suppose they all have the Butcher's Nails (and that is what the +1 A trait represents, that frenzied bloodlust) but from a tabletop perspective all WE are pretty explicitly *not* berzerkers. Seems like a bit of a subtle but key change to me.

 

I think the idea behind that is that they all are Berzerker but equipped with different weapons. Despite what many believe, Khorne doesn't exactly hate shooting. It's just not the favorite way of killing. Tho a bunch of Khorne Marines with Heavy Bolter is perfectly fine.

In a World Eater army the actual Berzerker unit would then represent the most dedicated and elite Berzerker of the Legion. You could see that well with the Traitor Legion rules where basically every World Eater Marine became a light-version Berzerker.

[MoK]

 

 

 

 

If I remember correctly, the old fluff stated that "Not all bereserkers are World Eaters but all World Eaters are bereserkers"

I think they basically said that in the 6th ed 'dex...

 

Which is weird, because you can take other units and give them the World Eaters legion keyword; you can have WE havocs or raptors... from a fluff perspective I suppose they all have the Butcher's Nails (and that is what the +1 A trait represents, that frenzied bloodlust) but from a tabletop perspective all WE are pretty explicitly *not* berzerkers. Seems like a bit of a subtle but key change to me.

I think the idea behind that is that they all are Berzerker but equipped with different weapons. Despite what many believe, Khorne doesn't exactly hate shooting. It's just not the favorite way of killing. Tho a bunch of Khorne Marines with Heavy Bolter is perfectly fine.

In a World Eater army the actual Berzerker unit would then represent the most dedicated and elite Berzerker of the Legion. You could see that well with the Traitor Legion rules where basically every World Eater Marine became a light-version Berzerker.

 

I really miss the Traitor Legions book. Still ticks me off that GW dangled all that loveliness and then ripped it away.

[Panzer]

It was a good book with a crap Codex as base. Now we have a good Codex with all the 8th edition love and a good chunk of what Traitor Legions was. I'm fine with that. ^^

Edited August 8, 2017 by sfPanzer

[MoK]

You see, so far I'm very underwhelmed. Unless I've missed something. But BL don't get chosen and termies as troops(a big thing for them for year), as for Worldeaters, yeah, very underwhelmed, wow we get to fight twice. At least with TLs we could get up into combat usually first turn, unless your opponent set up right in the table edge, and with the price increase of Rhinos it just feels so meh.

Shame coz I am Khorne Worshipper through and through. Shame about Daemonkin as well.

[Azekai]

Termies not being troops is far less of an issue in 8th. Take a vanguard detachment if you prefer elites... all taking troops does is allow you to get a few extra CP, and if you are Black Legion, Abaddon's bonus CP should counterbalance that nicely. 

[Panzer]

Well troops also have ObSec. Tho Terminators are way too expensive to use them as main ObSec source anyway so that's less of an argument.

[Azekai]

Well troops also have ObSec. Tho Terminators are way too expensive to use them as main ObSec source anyway so that's less of an argument.

Right, that and other reasons make objective-camping troop terminators a waste. Limited access to many long-range weapons and their ability to deepstrike and wreck face comes to mind :P

 

I actually like that you are encouraged to take lots of cultists and CSM to fill out your detachments (or cult troops if you are using a Legion). Seems kind of silly to be rewarded with lots of extra CP for taking an all terminator army.  You can still do it, of course, but the tradeoffs make it a harder choice.

[MoK]

Makes Deathwing armies very sucky though doesn't it.

[Panzer]

Ask Grey Knights.

Anyway, all super elite armies have their problems. A full Terminator army or a full Bike army has it obviously even harder...but playing such an army is gimping yourself. Sure it's fluffy but more something for narrative games and not for matched play.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Makes Deathwing armies very sucky though doesn't it.

Not really, all the new detachment rules do is give you tangible rewards for taking your standard troop choices, which I think is great. Hate making a chaos space marine list without any actual standard chaos space marines in it so I think it's great you're now encouraged to do so.

[MoK]

I dont think Standard Chaos Space Marines are good enough, they're supposed to be 10 thousand years old and fearless and usually able to pick up any weapon they want. Chosen are really the only non-cult troops that fit that bill. The cool thing about BL was that Chosen were BLs version of cult Troops. So then you have to use the Brigade detatchment to get enough slots and command points, the vanguard detatchment just isn't worth it when you loose a heavy support and fast attack slot and only get one command point.

My old BL list was

Abby

Sorceror in termie armour

3 Helbrutes

Bringers of Despair

Termie Squad

4x Maxed out Chosen squads.

For bigger games I added

3x Havoc Squads.

All squads in Rhinos.

 

Can't do that now.

[Arkangilos]

Guys, they Bersekers do spend time doing "normal" 40k things. They, like other chaos (and interestingly, any good Imperial servant), like to spend their time cleaning skulls when not in battle or training.

 

I am willing to bet that they do it together, snarling and bragging about who got the most skulls, and the largest skulls.

[BrightStarNova]

Makes sense considering that Kharne said one of His most favorite items was the battle counter given to Him. Supposedly by WarMaster Horus Himself.

 

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