A Guide to Slaying the Heretic

[Firepower]

Alright, Chaos is coming, and it's our duty to stop it.  Simple as that.

 

The tricky part is, how?  Traitor Marines come with a variety of nasty nibbles and wicked ways of war, every bit as versatile as our own Codex.  More troubling, they have something of a slant towards melee, where-as, shy of ourselves, there isn't much melee oriented strength in the C:SM.  To put it plainly, they have more stabby options than we do.

 

Accept any challenge, I say!  This is not a place to lament the qualities of books and rules, nor is it a place to weep over the fickle hand of fate!  We have what we need to know, we have our toy box of killy stuff, so let's take a look at where things stand and figure out the optimal methods of bringing down the big black sword of retribution on the heretics!

 

1- Renegades

 

2- Thousand Sons

 

3- World Eaters

 

4- Word Bearers

 

5- Emperor's Children

 

6- Black Legion

 

7- Night Lords

 

8- Iron Warriors

 

9- Death Guard

 

10- Alpha Legion

 

So the questions for us all-

 

A- What units/equipment/strategies are most likely to be seen or most effectively buffed by each faction?

 

B- What units/equipment/strategies are most vulnerable to each faction's rules and favored units?

 

C- What units/equipment/strategies are the best hard counters to each faction's rules and favored units?

 

And for bonus points, D- What are the best 'Templary' units/equipment/strategies to employ?  You know the one I mean ;)

 

Let us put our collective noggins together and solve this issue, brothers and sisters.

 

And to reiterate, and it's a pity I have to resort to hideous colored text to drive this point home, this a thread for solving problems, not whining about them!

[Sete]

Crusader Squads, load em up on LRC shoot down the board charge everything.

Add a Marshal, EC and Chaplain, throw in an Apothecary to keep them alive.

Or Helbrecth and Grimaldus instead of the vannila dudes for a good measure of Zeal.

[TheOneTrueZon]

Brethren, pay attention. 

 

Firepower just wrote something in RED. 

 

[SydonianDragoon404]

The LRC is a must right now, not just because it is our signature vehicle, but also because they are amazing! 

 

Has anyone tried out SS+TH Terminators yet? I'm thinking about trying them in an LRC rather than deep strike so I can send them along with Helbrecht for that juicy S10 and reroll to hit.

Edited August 7, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[TrexPushups]

I have a feeling that every heretical force will have at least 1 exalted champion in it for the re-rolls to wound in the fight phase.

[Marshal Arthur]

The LRC is a must right now, not just because it is our signature vehicle, but also because they are amazing! 

 

Has anyone tried out SS+TH Terminators yet? I'm thinking about trying them in an LRC rather than deep strike so I can send them along with Helbrecht for that juicy S10 and reroll to hit.

I've been thinking of trying the same thing. I mostly play against Death Guard so wounding them on 2s is always welcome. The LRC can chew through weaker chaff like poxwalkers and cultists, and once it makes a hole in the enemy line the terminators can charge through to unleash our zealous fury.

[Sete]

I'm taking a land speeder with HB and Missile launcher. Its versatile, you can use the missiles to chew trough chaff or focus on veichles.

 

I'm having a game later this month, supporting 4k of salamanders vs Orks and Dark angels with 1k.

Ill let you know how it went.

[TrexPushups]

The LRC is a must right now, not just because it is our signature vehicle, but also because they are amazing! 

 

Has anyone tried out SS+TH Terminators yet? I'm thinking about trying them in an LRC rather than deep strike so I can send them along with Helbrecht for that juicy S10 and reroll to hit.

They will be S9 not 10 because you do addition after multiplication.

 

They hid this rule in a sidebar on page 175 with the heading "Modifying Characteristics"

[Firepower]

That bit is in contention because of some obscure rule wording somewhere else.  I'll wait for an FAQ on that question.

 

The experience I had with the LRC the other day was not great.  Deep Strike assaulting units like Warp Talons or Turn 1 assault can pull it out of the game, so long as one unit makes the charge.  Because of the fire it can put out, I imagine most armies with that trick will make it a priority.  A lot of love is being shown for the Storm Raven, instead. 

 

I've been thinking of using the big squad inside by deploying it outside of the LRC as bubble wrap for Turn 1.  That would create some issues on its own, though.

 

I have a 5 man squad of claw and th/ss Terminators from long ago I'm thinking of using, but Cataphracti seem to outclass them with Claw spam and cheaper costs.

 

But general tactics aside, what about Chaos specific tactics, issues, etc.?

[Ciler]

I'm assuming you're expecting more in depth strategies than "apply chainsword to face, do not rince, repeat" ; or "just spam ravens and razorbacks lol" cheese ?

 

I have tried the hammernators, and they have proved quite efficient with only a captain in range. Much like our esteemed chaplain I'm awaiting a final ruling on the strenght issue (I'm hoping for 10 naturally) but I'm not fussed about the outcome, because S9 is enough to 3+ just about anything.

 

My experience of the Land Raider is as firepower's, it got bogged down in CC by a rhino in 2 out of 3 games I had it on the table. I was able to destroy it eventually in my 3rd game but then my opponent locked my LRC again with a blight drone and I had other targets at that point. Thusly, I advise sticking to Stormravens for now. Deploying the crusader squad in front of it seems difficult, because you disembark before the vehicle moves, not after. So you'd have to have your blob literally walking in front of it all the time. One thing to pay attention to with regards to either the raven or LRC is the Laser destroyer on rapier carrier (from forge world IA index) - those babies are heavy 1, S12 AP-4, D6 dmg BUT once they do unsaved damage you take an additional roll and on 1-2 you do D6, on 3-5 2D6 and on 6 3D6 actal dmg. One of those litteraly knocked my stormraven off the sky in one shooting turn. Oh and they are only 80 points, cheers.

 

FInally, on the topic of specific strategies :

• if you must go CC against berzerkers, make sure you're the one charging, and make sure they go down immediately, because otherwise they will destroy your crusader squad under sheer weight of dice. I wold say that if you have the points, the stratagem that allows to reactivate a unit is not wasted to make sure they are wittled to a low enough number.
• try and shoot noise marines from afar so that they can shoot back at you when they die (their special rule) and be careful charging them, because of that special rule again, they will shoot you when they die.
• nurgle is nurgle, plague marines are tough with disgustingly resilient, so again go for overkill so that even if some wounds get voided you still get them.
• haven't played against thousand sons yet, but i can only assume our stratagem will come in handy. I haven't had an opportunity to put my sisters of silence on the table yet.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I'm all in What ciler said about noise marines.

 

Shoot them 1 turn, when they're far away So They can't shoot ar you when They die. I Also think that shoot ar them is best option.

 

I've played agonat them and:

Charge, hitted by overwatch, then combat +- same loses, kill 3 of them And..... They made 9 shots (due to assault 3 weapon) And They killed another two from my squad... So best thing is shoot ar them that They are outside 24".

One thing that is important. After death They can shoot as If it is shooting fase. So as we understand This They can shoot ar another unit( not the one that They are combat with), torów granade And So on....

Edited August 7, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Not familiar with how the Noise Marines work in regards to shooting before death, but the general idea is to stay out of their range when gunning them down...

 

The tactic for CSM is still close to being the same as in 7th... bring anti Marine weapons and don't overly rely on weight of dice... it fails more the heavier or tougher the opponent gets... relying on 30+ dice against Orks is much more efficient than 40+ dice against Plague Marines... bring much more efficient weaponry, even if it costs a bit more points...

 

• Grav Cannons are still annoying to them, dealing D3 damage per shot... on a Heavy 4 that's quite a lot...
• Power Weapons on Vanguards will hurt them provided you get the charge...
• They hurt from Battleshock a little worse than we do (except for the filthy Word Bearers... they have something akin to ATSKNF too...), so aim for big squads with multi shot weapons... force them to lose units through battleshock...
• Honour Guard or Veterans will come in handy when facing against enemy Champions/Daemons, keep them close to your commanders so they can act as ablative wounds and attacks...
• The enemy is much more focused towards melee than us, force them to have to go into melee on our terms and don't go charging a Berzerker squad with nothing but chainswords... their heavier more choppier Chain Axes can make short work of almost nearly anything... shoot them until they are in a much more manageable number then go for the melee kill...
• If you see Magnus... which will be rare I reckon... then I would either suggest concentrated fire (which will benefit their army because you're not shooting at Sorcerers or Terminators or anything important) or ignore him... (which will be hard, knowing that he can wipe out quite a bit of your army by himself) either case, you see a traitor primarch, you're in for a tough fight...

[Firepower]

What of demon summoning?  Is it a psyker power?  Because Abhoring the Witch and stopping a Word Bearer from dumping a horde on the table would feel delicious :lol:

[Blender]

Well I bought 3 predators and a stormraven to try against Nurgle marines. I still need to test my hellblaster squad more. I'll report back once I get some games against the nurgle player.

 

From my previous experiences the EC and a rifleman dreadnaught is pretty consistent--reliable. I have not tried a more combat orientated dread. 

[HenricusTyranicus]

I think the Thunderfire cannon stratagem could really mess up your average Chaos army. Most of them want to be close, and halving their movement, advance rolls, and charge distance means you can rapidfire a squad of berserkers, and still have them not get the charge on you. Heck, you could drop in 9 inches from them, and gun them down with total impunity. 9 inches away means they get a 3 inch move, and then have to roll a 12. Warptime could be a problem, but you know who has zeal and can tell them to go straight to the warp with their psychic powers? 

[Jacques Corbin]

What of demon summoning? Is it a psyker power? Because Abhoring the Witch and stopping a Word Bearer from dumping a horde on the table would feel delicious :lol:

All the sweeter, a Dreadnought denies. More dead than alive, more machine than marine, yet more zeal than machine.

 

Night Lords mess with Leadership. Cenobyte Servitors might seem the obvious choice, but consider spending a CP for Chapter relics to put the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant and the Crusader's Helm on an Ancient. See how they like that 9" bubble.

[Firepower]

I don't think you can put two relics on one model.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Firepower

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

The LRC is a must right now, not just because it is our signature vehicle, but also because they are amazing!

 

Has anyone tried out SS+TH Terminators yet? I'm thinking about trying them in an LRC rather than deep strike so I can send them along with Helbrecht for that juicy S10 and reroll to hit.

They will be S9 not 10 because you do addition after multiplication.

 

They hid this rule in a sidebar on page 175 with the heading "Modifying Characteristics"

Without getting into a long post about it, GW released a Designer Notes FAQ that clarified this, basically contradicting the rulebook, due to the wording of specific special abilities. It is STR 10. The full thread can be found below:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337338-helbrecht-observation/

[Ciler]

What of demon summoning?  Is it a psyker power?  Because Abhoring the Witch and stopping a Word Bearer from dumping a horde on the table would feel delicious

It is not, as far as the index anyway. It's an ability that can be used by any character at the end of the movement phase. There is no psyker requirement, so we can't deny it. On the plus side, this is considered reserves so your opponent must have budgetted the points for them.

 

I don't think you can put two relics on one model.

You can't.

[Schlitzaf]

As others have said; fight where we are strong and they are weak. My current army 'core' is composed of 2 Intercessor and 2 Crusader Squads. Crusaders in front absorbing the charge, Intercessor behinds providing suppression Fire.

 

Zerkers 19 points a model with Ax, a 10 man squad pre-upgrade is 190 Points. My 13 Man Crusaders are 217. It's a difference of essentially three models, 2 Melta Gun and 3 Power Fist attacks. If and when I engage, I will kill 1/2 Zerker from Melta. Another from Pistol. 2/3 Zerkers and if I can charge my fists will likely accounting for another 2/3. Let us say 5 Zerkers. If I can charge, if I lack a Marshall, 14 hits and 7 points. Killing another 2 Zerkers. 7 dead. If they charge us, my squad will be wiped.

 

But what my goal I am illustrating with the above, Zerkers are still Marines. And my lowly Crusader Squad brought down a mighty Berzerker Squad to 3 men in admittedly in slightly optimal circumstances. And they have no movement buffs.

 

Because WE Zerkers cannot warp time. Unless they take allies. Which brings me to something else. Beside Daemons, CSM have limited ability to deploy into Reserve. Meaning that what they have on the table is what they have.

 

The exception to the above are Raptors (and Talons) and Terminators, if they are AL they can forward deploy a unit. In contrast we have Reivars, Scouts, Drop Pods, our Vang/Assault, Terminators and if we desire the Imperial Soup. We can force them to spread their lines or bunch up. Then engage on a front of our choosing.

 

The best advice vs Chaos, is because both our armies are Assault/FireFight (we want to get in 12" magic and be in combat), is force the terms of engagement on our terms. Use our surperior deployment options. Take them on not on their terms but with a combined arms. They want to melee pull back and deploy our trusty bolters.

 

Then move in to finish them off using our chargers. If they want to shoot, pressure them, give them a lot of targets press the left or right flank. Noise Marines are just Necrons that hit before us. If they want to battle shock, we have three ways of mitigation in addition and they shall know no fear. Rites of War, Emperor Ascendant, and Cenobytes. In addition to good old and "they shall know no fear".

 

They want to eat characters for rolls on the boon table, while it is dishonorable. Our relic, Crusade Helm, gives us 9 buff bubbles. Combined with Rites of War or Angel of Death/Rites of Battle we can buff from long range.

 

Meaning they cannot consolidate into our Marshalls. Unless they spend two CP. And unlike us they have little ways of moral negation on bigger squads. You don't need to wipe Squads, using my Crusader Squad. I just killed 6-8 Berzerkers. They are LD 8. They are gonna battle shock and lose another 1-3 models. Using Rites of War/Emperor Ascendent/Reivars we can get a -3 on Squads. Or more often -2.

 

Meaning killing even 3 guys from a squad results on a 4+ someone bolting. And beside WB and BL, Chaos has very few means of negation of battle shock beside spending 2 Command Points and Dark Apostles (whom themselves will suffer the -2 listed above.). Remember "We Shall Know No Fear."

 

Chaos Marines? Oh they know fear. They know it well. It's why they fled into the Eye of Terror.

[Stemplar]

Good timing as I have a 1200 point game against Chaos tomorrow. Not sure what's coming BUT need to figure out how to do this.

 

Question. With the Stormraven ... if I want it to benefit from Helbrechts buffs for shooting, do we measure 6 inches from the base of the Raven?

 

So he would disembark with the unit(s) and stay within 6 of the base for the Stormraven to get all the re rolls? Does that work?

[Gendo]

Had a game against some sort of Chaos army, was a mix of two and not sure which ones as they all look the same filth to me.

 

As I knew he wanted to charge in as well I didn't move a single unit in my first turn, LRC was in range of two units and with Helbrecht disembarked it did quite the damage.

Then fired an Orbital Bombardment getting 5 units caught up, my Ven Dreadnought with Lascannon and Autocannon used it's new reroll 1s stratagem on himself and a Las Predator.

 

That little strategy helped a lot as I wasn't left too far in for my precious LRC to get charged and I had all of the firepower at full BS plus all the bonuses, on his turn he moved a little as he wasn't able to make the charge so i went first on the second turn with LRC shielded by charging units and 3 Rhinos down for him.

 

Bezerkers are scary even when we go first so I had to fall back (sorry) with 2 Initiates left and dish out the punishment with the LRC in rapid fire range to the now 2 disengaged units, worked very well.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Good timing as I have a 1200 point game against Chaos tomorrow. Not sure what's coming BUT need to figure out how to do this.

 

Question. With the Stormraven ... if I want it to benefit from Helbrechts buffs for shooting, do we measure 6 inches from the base of the Raven?

 

So he would disembark with the unit(s) and stay within 6 of the base for the Stormraven to get all the re rolls? Does that work?

Yeah. Although if the Raven is hovering you can move Helbrecht 9, then position the Raven wherever you want.

[Stemplar]

So ... HELP!!

 

I've loaded up the LRC and a razorback and I'm taking the new Redemptor.

 

My big issue is, do I take my Chaplain in terminator armour so he can wear the helm? OR for fewer points take a Lieutenant and give him the helm? That way I can squeeze in am extra couple of weapons too.

 

Thoughts?

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Fast question: can repulsor transport just primaris, or all other normal marines too? Edited August 9, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson