10 Man Infantry Squads?

[MeltaRange]

Specifically, talking about Intercessors and Sternguard, but to a lesser extent also 10 man Devastator Squads (w/ heavy bolters) or even Tactical Squads.

 

Anyone using them to try and take better advantage of Bolter Drill or other unit-wide buffs like Masterful Marksmanship or Veil of Time or the Rhino Primaris buff?

 

Intercessors in particular become quite deadly with Bolter Drill, in a re-roll aura or 2, with Storm of Fire...you can pile on a few more things if you want.  But is it worth it?

 

If I were to list out the pros and cons, admittedly the cons would be larger.  But there are some relatively decent pros as well that might not look good on paper but gamewise are actually not bad.  Like, being able to spread out a unit very wide while keeping 1 model in range for an aura ability, being harder to wipe out for opponent's objective cards...stuff like that.

 

Wondering if anyone has any opinions before I try out 2x 10 man Intercessors + 1x 10 man Sternguard squad this weekend.

[Kallas]

10x Sternguard with a Storm of Fire Chapter Master nearby, using Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship:

 

20x shots at BS3+, that's(*):

• 13.3 hits
• 4.256 Bolter Drill triggers, for an extra 3.736 hits, making 17(.036) hits total
• 8.5 AP-2; 5.61 AP-3 wounds vs T3 -> 12.75 unsaved wounds vs T3 Sv4+ (eg, Scions)
• 5.61 AP-2; 5.61 AP-3 wounds vs T4 -> 10.3 unsaved wounds vs T4 Sv4+ (eg, Tyranid Warriors)
• 5.61 AP-2; 5.61 AP-3 wounds vs T4 -> 8.4 unsaved wounds vs T4 Sv3+ (MEQs)
• 2.72 AP-2; 5.61 AP-3 wounds vs T5-7
• Hive Tyrant (T6 Sv3+/5++) -> 5.5 unsaved wounds
• Bikers (T5 Sv3+) -> 6.5 unsaved wounds

Honestly, Bolter Drill is a little weak. It's essentially gambling on the odds to roll more 6s than average. Masterful Marksmanship and Storm of Fire are great, however, especially with a Lieutenant nearby (which the above calculations haven't included.)

 

 

 

 

 

* Standard disclaimer: my maths may be wrong. Please correct me if so!

[Brother Sgt Kartr]

You forgot the re-rolls for the Chapter Master.

 

13.3 hits before re-rolls another 4.5 hits after re-rolls gets you up to 17.8 hits.

3.3 Bolter Drill triggers before re-rolls, another 0.75 triggers after re-rolls so 4 extra shots.

2.7 extra hits before re-rolls, another 0.86 hits after re-rolls for about 3.5 extra hits.

You should have about 21 hits with a CM and Bolter Drill.

 

That said you're spot on about Masterful Maksmanship and Storm of Fire being more useful than Bolter Drill. Bolter Drill is very un-reliable since you're fishing for 6s, while Masterful Marksmanship is a guaranteed +1 to wound and Storm of Fire is essentially free, making the fishing for 6s less painful.

 

One thing to note about Masterful Marksmenship paired with Storm of Fire, it procs on a roll of 6+ which means you check for it after modifiers! Which means that if you have a Storm of Fire Warlord next to Sternguard who are using Masterful Marksmenship they trigger Storm of Fire on 5s & 6s not just on 6s!

 

As for the OPs question, I use the Rhino Primaris in every 2000 point game I play. But I generally use it to buff my Plasma Cannon Devastators so that they can overcharge without worrying about getting hot. 4D3 S8 Ap -3 D2 shots hitting on 2s, ignoring gets hot and re-rolling misses and wound rolls of 1 will delete pretty much anything short of a Super Heavy in one turn of shooting.

 

As for Sternguard and Intercessors, Sternguard are hands down the better unit for killing things. They have the same range as Intercessors, better Ap and better melee and leadership. The things that Intercessors bring is Objective Secured and a second wound, which can be really useful in certain situations, but just hope you're not going up against a plasma cannon squad  like mine, cause they will delete a squad of Intercessors every turn.

[Kallas]

Gah, I did a bunch of math mistakes

[Lemondish]

I would love it if you're deleting a squad of my Intercessors each turn. Means you're ignoring literally everything else, so they're doing their job.

[Brother Sgt Kartr]

I would love it if you're deleting a squad of my Intercessors each turn. Means you're ignoring literally everything else, so they're doing their job.

Not really, since it only takes 1 squad of Devastators with Plasma Cannons to do it. The other 2 Devastator squads, the Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Las Cannons, the 10 man Sternguard Squad, the 2 Assault Razorbacks, 2 tactical squads (5 man) and Rhino Primaris are all free to shoot at other things....

[anarchistscourge]

I feel its quite unlikely a squad of plasma devs will wipe a squad of intercessors (especially a 10 man squad). Even with a captain and overcharging the plasma. Granted an average roll will do 5 wounding hits, so its possible, thats an average roll and we all know dice never roll average. And as lemondish said, if your shooting that plasma at my intercessors, it means they are not targeting my tougher units and you are wasting them

[Lemondish]

 

I would love it if you're deleting a squad of my Intercessors each turn. Means you're ignoring literally everything else, so they're doing their job.

Not really, since it only takes 1 squad of Devastators with Plasma Cannons to do it. The other 2 Devastator squads, the Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Las Cannons, the 10 man Sternguard Squad, the 2 Assault Razorbacks, 2 tactical squads (5 man) and Rhino Primaris are all free to shoot at other things....

 

 

I highly doubt a squad of Devastators will wipe out 20 wounds a turn on a 10 man squad, but if they could, they should be firing at something far more dangerous than a squad of Intercessors - perhaps "anything short of a super heavy" for example. It's still a benefit to me that you chose that target, regardless of what the rest of your army will do. There's no such thing as excess firepower - no army tables another in the first turn, so target priority matters, and if you've chosen the Intercessors as your focus, then they have absolutely done what I intended - hold a position and take fire. T'was all I was saying.

[Brother Sgt Kartr]

 

 

I would love it if you're deleting a squad of my Intercessors each turn. Means you're ignoring literally everything else, so they're doing their job.

Not really, since it only takes 1 squad of Devastators with Plasma Cannons to do it. The other 2 Devastator squads, the Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Las Cannons, the 10 man Sternguard Squad, the 2 Assault Razorbacks, 2 tactical squads (5 man) and Rhino Primaris are all free to shoot at other things....

 

 

I highly doubt a squad of Devastators will wipe out 20 wounds a turn on a 10 man squad, but if they could, they should be firing at something far more dangerous than a squad of Intercessors - perhaps "anything short of a super heavy" for example. It's still a benefit to me that you chose that target, regardless of what the rest of your army will do. There's no such thing as excess firepower - no army tables another in the first turn, so target priority matters, and if you've chosen the Intercessors as your focus, then they have absolutely done what I intended - hold a position and take fire. T'was all I was saying.

 

Ahhh yeah on the first turn I probably won't be shooting the Intercessors unless we're going Hammer and Anvil and there's nothing else within 36". That said, 20 wounds on a T4 unit isn't terribly difficult to achieve with a tuned gunline, especially from a squad of plasma cannon devastators. If anything that should be only slightly above average.

 

 

4d3 shots averages out to 8, pop the Armorium Cherub for d3 more and you should have 10 shots. Primaris Rhino gives +1 to hit so now we're hitting on 2s ignoring "gets hot" and re-rolling 1s. That should be everything hits (usually is). Then since we're overcharged we're wounding on 2s and the Lieutenant re-rolls 1s to wound, should be everything to wound. We ignore cover and have ap -3 giving those Intercessors a 6+ save at best. Each failed save is 2 wounds which means each failed save is a dead Intercessor. It takes about average rolling for the plasma cannon devastators to do it to a 10 man squad, and they have to fail 10 6+ saves, but it's doable. A 5 man squad on an objective will be melted.

 

Obviously not a first turn thing, but if they've got a squad of Hellblasters or something... Heck anything below S8 you can dish out 6-8 wounds to pretty reliable and possibly higher. Plasma cannon devastators are brutal with the right support.

[Lemondish]

I suppose it is doable.

 

Still, I think you just spent a turn using twice as many points to wipe out a unit who's entire purpose is to make its points back by taking fire and holding a position, so I think that's still a huge benefit to me. Now, that's a simplified way to think about it because the Rhino and LT will help other units and aren't just for them, but if they're in the back field supporting those guys, then there's at least board control to consider.

 

I'm also not so sure a unit like that will remain intact for more than a turn if they are as easy mode as you are describing. That's super powerful, though, and if we're to bring it back to the topic of 10 man vs 5 man, then a 5 man Intercessor unit just got overkilled for a 4th of the points, which again, benefit goes to me I think. Hell, even better if they were any 5 man infantry squad. Out of curiosity, if you did decide that was a primary target, would you consider split firing to try and take out multiple?

 

Edit: Another question about the plasma devs. While shooting, since a 1 always misses, regardless of modifiers, that doesn't mean they explode, right? I think it's that the modifier applies when determining overcharge, but the shot would still miss, though I think you would have more experience in this.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Lemondish

[Brother Sgt Kartr]

I suppose it is doable.

 

Still, I think you just spent a turn using twice as many points to wipe out a unit who's entire purpose is to make its points back by taking fire and holding a position, so I think that's still a huge benefit to me. Now, that's a simplified way to think about it because the Rhino and LT will help other units and aren't just for them, but if they're in the back field supporting those guys, then there's at least board control to consider.

 

I'm also not so sure a unit like that will remain intact for more than a turn if they are as easy mode as you are describing. That's super powerful, though, and if we're to bring it back to the topic of 10 man vs 5 man, then a 5 man Intercessor unit just got overkilled for a 4th of the points, which again, benefit goes to me I think. Hell, even better if they were any 5 man infantry squad. Out of curiosity, if you did decide that was a primary target, would you consider split firing to try and take out multiple?

 

Edit: Another question about the plasma devs. While shooting, since a 1 always misses, regardless of modifiers, that doesn't mean they explode, right? I think it's that the modifier applies when determining overcharge, but the shot would still miss, though I think you would have more experience in this.

If all I had to shoot at were a pair of 5 man infantry squads I'd probably split fire in order to try and either kill both off or kill enough to force leadership. And yeah my Plasma Devastators get a lot of hate sent their way when they deploy. At least from people who have faced them before, people who haven't tend to focus on the las cannons, which is why I always run 10 man squads with an Ancient and Apothecary. One game the Apothecary brought back 4 plasma cannons in 6 turns! :D

 

That was faqed in the Developer notes. A 1 will always miss regardless of modifiers, but they stated that if you have a +1 modifier you can never "Gets Hot" as the "result" is a 2. Which is the main reason I run a Rhino Primaris and it gives the Plasma squad a +1 to hit so I can overcharge and not worry about "Gets Hot." Or if I want to shoot them at something with a -1 to hit like Tau Stealth Suits then I only "Gets Hot" on a 1 not 1-2. Plus with the Ancient there if they do kill themselves on a 4+ (3+ if using the Banner of the Emperor Ascendant) they get a second shot. Then the Apothecary can try to heal them back at the end of the next Movement Phase. It's pretty dirty.