GUILLIMEN when do you play him?

[Hopper21]

I understand he's a point sink, but I love gman and his rules/buffs that he brings. What points levels do you all use him at? Do you have a threshold to which he's included?

 

I've Got a 2 v 1 battle tomoz with 1250 for my friend and I and our opponent at 2.5k.

 

So far I've included him but as you can imagine model count is low.

 

Grateful for your thoughts!

[The Wolfguard]

Firstly, I'm not speaking from experience, I have not used him yet. However I think the main thing to remember with Guilliman is that a lot of his strength (not all, just a lot) lies within his ability to buff other Ultramarine units close by to immense feats. This means the more units you have near him that you're able to buff, the stronger he will be. However he does also incorporate multiple HQ unit buffs in one and is very efficient. For example you would need a captain and lieutenant to buff nearby units to reroll 1's on to hit and to wound. Whilst this is still very good in combination it's still not anywhere near as strong as Guilliman's aura though of course you're looking at 150 points or so compared to guilliman's 390(?). 

 

 

To that end however it depends on what you're against. Guilliman can also be used to ward off close combat units that get too close to your firing line, it seems like he'll mince most things in combat whilst also buffing your shooty units so they can hopefully do some damage before anything gets into combat. In honesty I plan to get him and use him, however maybe in 1500 point games or more in fairness. Anything smaller I plan on using Marneus + Lieutenant or Captain + Lieutenant. Also remember you can now use a command point to give tac's and intercessors the reroll to hit so..

 

Again, I've not tried it, but at 1250 I'd make use of Captain + Lieutenant. Their aura is still very good but you'll also be able to get more models within range since you'll have more in your army. I don't know though, Guilliman is very cool and maybe my opinion will change by the time I've tried him out a few times.

Edited August 8, 2017 by The Wolfguard

[Prot]

I personally wouldn't use him in under 1850. But you really don't have to either. Calgar is very good and Guilliman forces you to still take 2 HQ's in a battalion. Calgar gets you halfway there. And he's got more deployment options.

 

The playstyle changes a bit too. You're looking at a very small, immobile firebase army. This presents strategic issues in itself but at this point level protecting becomes a bit of an issue. Sure he's capable in close combat but so is a lot if stuff in the game. I've lost him to Smite ganking and Magnus. When that happens things usually turn pretty ugly.

 

I think on the surface he's easy to plop down and shoot stuff, but again I really like to ply cheap HQs and in smaller games a cheap captain with the CM strategum is really good. There's some options for you.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Guilliman's bubble is indeed powerful. It is hands-down the best turd polisher in the game. Anything with the Imperium key is better just by standing near him. However, it is not the reason to take him nor, in my opinion, is it the most powerful thing about him.

 

Guilliman is an army breaker. It is very difficult for anything but Smite spam to even put wounds on him much less put him down for a reasonable amount of points. On Any Given turn that he is in combat you can reasonably expect to put out between 9 and 15 wounds and a handful of mortal wounds. He evaporates Infantry and can break almost any vehicle over his knee without much effort. It is much safer, and very effective, to sit him in the backfield and handout rerolls. But in a non tournament environment, his sheer killing power cannot be understated. I probably would not take him at less than 1500 just because Cal gar is now pointed appropriately, but at 1250 you are very likely to run into armies that simply can't kill him before he kills them.

 

He is an ultra safe Warlord. He is unlikely to give up slay the warlord and he comes with three command points. For his point value he cannot be beaten.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Brother Captain Ed

[Hopper21]

This is what I'm running will let you all know how it goes!

 

Vanguard (CP +1) (Space Marines)

 

Troops

Intercessor Squad

 

Elites

 

3x Agressor flamer gauntlets

 

Redemptor Dreadnought

Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 2x Stormbolter

 

Rievers

5x Grapnel Launcher, 5x Riever

Rievers

5x Grapnel Launcher, 5x Riever

 

HQ

Primaris Lieutenants

Lieutenant

Power Sword

 

Heavy Support

Hellblaster Squad

5x Plasma Incinerator

 

Lord of War

Roboute Gulliman

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I have yet to paint my Guilliman (or get in a game of 8th) but my inclination is to take him only in larger games because I like having bodies on the board (that said, I love terminator Calgar's model, so I'll probably field him most often).

 

Models I like are terminators, bikes, and dreadnoughts, so I suspect I'll be trying to field a lot of those.

 

I wonder what the cheapest double Battalion I can field is.

 

Three naked Techmarines

 

Six Scout squads with bolters

 

Three squads of Honour Guard

 

Three Attack Bikes

 

Three Devastator squads with bolters

 

993 points. +9CP

Edited August 9, 2017 by Freman Bloodglaive

[Pr3Mu5]

I have run him from 50 power to 75 power all the way up to 2500 points.

 

Has anyone else build close combat armies around him?

I don't even bother building a gun line with him, there's no point. Stick Calgar, Honour guard, Lieutenant (mine takes a hammer for the fun of even more D3 damage) and Chapter Ancient with Banner of the Emperor Ascendant in a Land Raider Crusader with jump pack Vanguard vets and then stick a couple terminator units in teleport. You will still have points left over for a fire Base to lend fire support for turn one. Land Raider drives forward and fires getting buffs from Guilliman as he goes 8"+D6+1 and then turn 2 everything gets out and Termies teleport in and use Guillimans +1 charge after firing, Vanguard can get out and jump a total of 15" over any screening units to get to guard tanks or artillery or chace down fast moving Tau or eldar who might have seen the charge coming and tried to run away. I give them storm shields so good luck killing them in overwatch too. Otherwise they hop over the target units and charge them from the rear to still take advantage of the massive aura bubble you've now created... Roll some dice and watch stuff die... Die... get it ... nm

 

Made all the more amusing by the fact that what ever is left of your opponents army gets punished further if they kill anything because of the banner. Try it, it's fun.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Pr3Mu5

[Frater Cornelius]

Have not tried him, but seen him in action. That game wasn't doing him any favours though, as he got smashed into the ground against Ynnari Smite shenanigans with Soulburst. Verdict, beware of Psykers.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Smite spam is literally the only thing in the game That can reliably hurt him. And, even then, there are ways to help mitigate it.

[Ishagu]

2000 points minimum I'd say.

 

He needs support and bigger numbers of units around him to benefit from his rules.

 

At games below you're sacrificing far too much to include him, especially as you'll need another HQ on top.

 

Another question - how was he getting smited?

Smite only targets the closest unit. The Guilliman player must have played him extremely poorly.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Ishagu - No, he was doing fine. The issue was that there was nothing else left. He got defeated by a good margin. Ynnari is still one of the most idiotic factions in the game.

 

You mention 2000 at best and I tend to agree. What about Guilliman and Primaris though. Is that even worth it considering how much your average Primaris tends to cost?

[The Wolfguard]

I hope Guilliman and Primaris is worth considering as this is what my army will eventually be, they have 'better' weapons than regular marines. I say better loosely but their cawl bolters are meant to be 'better' etc, and you can put out bolter and plasma fire at a longer range. Doesn't this mean that having a buff to your hitting and wounding will make it more effective than on 'regular' marines since you can start picking the enemy off more effectively from further away? Even if there's less weight of fire? Of course this is if everything is perfectly balanced. Cause by that point the extra weight of fire from tac marines means they should equal the primaris if you're working point by point, again if everything is balanced.

 

 

I would say just cause of the range I'd love to run Guilliman with my Primaris, though I haven't used them as an exclusive army just yet. The pure weight of fire of bolter aggressors combined with Guilliman would mean that nothing ever wants to come close to your army. If playing against another shooty army the buff he gives to your pretty well ranged intercessors/Hellblasters or other units would work too well surely?  Maybe you could combine this range with some hard hitting close combat units like said above with the assault marine/chaplain idea and that way when/if they come close you can counter assault and brutalise what's left?

 

 

Quick edit because I don't know if I'm explaining this well enough but what I mean is, Inceptor bolter fire hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's for the most part, will be quite effective with the rerolls at 30 inch range. More effective than say something that hits on 3's then wounds on 2's with a lower rate of fire (like a plasma cannon?) surely? I'm not too sure if this is mathematically correct but since the 2+ is more likely to wound isn't it less deviancy rerolling that than rerolling a 4+? Again, I'm probably wrong, have no experience on him but I want to try and expand on that :)

Edited August 9, 2017 by The Wolfguard

[Ishagu]

Yinnari are definitely tough.

I just faced them at the NWO ITC tournament last week.

 

You need to be really careful about unit positioning.

 

I do think it's funny when people say Guilliman is overpowered because he makes shooting so effective, whilst ignoring the fact that Yinnari units can literally shoot twice. Fire dragons are deadly for example.

[Brother Captain Ed]

It's because he's a primarch. Not only have we been conditioned to think Primarch = incredibly amazeballs for 30 years, but he's completely unique in the entire Imperial arsenal. Magnus doesn't get the same hate because Thousand Sons are less ubiquitous and because Chaos players have had giant flying, murder psyker demons for years.

[Hopper21]

So new model syndrome well and truly kicked in.

 

Our opponent (a good friend) used his Red Scorpions and a very cool list -

 

At a snap shot:

 

Culln

Loth

Hellios land raider

Scorpius

X2 Las rapier

3 razorback

3 5 man tac squads

Vanguard assault squad

Stormraven

Calidus assassin

Incepters (bolters)

 

All my new stuff got shot up by end of turn 2 with Gman being taken down by a Las rapier to the face (rolled a 1 on save)

 

LESSONS LEARNT

Gman is to expensive at 1250...

I didn't realise how much of a baller Calgar was untill you all mentioned it, i need him now....

 

Building 3 aggressors and 10 reivers the night before game is hard work.

 

Flamer aggressors look the absolute cats sprats.

 

FORWARD

Going to pick up Calgar and run him in place of gman at sub 2.5k games. He is a HQ choice and fits in nicely.

 

Build my repulsor and new hellblasters and intercessors.

 

Drop the primaris only thing and pick up some 6 man tac squads with razorbacks

 

Not sure about Calgar honour guard.

 

Thanks for all the input!

[Ishagu]

Primaris Marines can struggle without investment in units like Predators or transports like the Repulsor.

 

You faced a pretty tough list with highly efficient units like Razorbacks.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Roboute hanging out with Terminus Ultra. :)

Speaking of which, to build Terminus I need a Land Raider, a Razorback lascannon turret, and Predator lascannon sponsons, yes?

[Frater Cornelius]

I sort of want to try 1250p and 1850p UM now. I have something in mind, the latter one possibly with Guilliman.

[Pr3Mu5]

So new model syndrome well and truly kicked in.

Our opponent (a good friend) used his Red Scorpions and a very cool list -

At a snap shot:

Culln

Loth

Hellios land raider

Scorpius

X2 Las rapier

3 razorback

3 5 man tac squads

Vanguard assault squad

Stormraven

Calidus assassin

Incepters (bolters)

All my new stuff got shot up by end of turn 2 with Gman being taken down by a Las rapier to the face (rolled a 1 on save)

LESSONS LEARNT

Gman is to expensive at 1250...

I didn't realise how much of a baller Calgar was untill you all mentioned it, i need him now....

Building 3 aggressors and 10 reivers the night before game is hard work.

Flamer aggressors look the absolute cats sprats.

FORWARD

Going to pick up Calgar and run him in place of gman at sub 2.5k games. He is a HQ choice and fits in nicely.

Build my repulsor and new hellblasters and intercessors.

Drop the primaris only thing and pick up some 6 man tac squads with razorbacks

Not sure about Calgar honour guard.

Thanks for all the input!

If you take Calgar take his honour guard. They're very cheap and if during the game he's had his wounds dropped down and you need to throw a couple wounds onto them say for example against an opponent with a cc multi damage weapon just to be safe they're very useful. Combine that with a banner and when they die... Probable free attacks (with rerolls)

[Ishagu]

Just seen that list you posted, you didn't really stand a chance against that red scorpion list. Are you sure it was 1250?

 

You don't have anywhere near enough firepower to deal with multiple high toughness, high firepower units. You were outgunned, out-manoeuvred, and his army was far tougher to boot.

Guilliman is perfect at 2k, you don't need to run him at 2.5 or above only. There are cheap HQs like Chronus you can just throw into a tank for 35 points.

Here is an example of an effective Guilliman list at 2k:

 

 

Ultramarine Spearhead detachment

 

HQ:

-Sgt Chronus

 

Troops:

-6 Tactical Marines, Combi Plasma, Plasma

-6 Tactical Marines, Combi Plasma, Plasma

 

Elites:

-Redemptor Dreadnought, 2 Gatling Cannons, Missiles, Storm Bolters

-Redemptor Dreadnought, 2 Gatling Cannons, Missiles, Storm Bolters

 

Heavy Support:

-Godhammer Landraider, Multi Melta

-Predator Annihilator, Las Cannon Sponsons

-5 man Devastator Squad, Combi Grav, 4 Grav Cannons, Cherub

 

Dedicated Transort:

-Razorback, Twin Lascannon

-Razorback, Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

This list has been tested at the highest levels of play and it performs very, very well (Has been tested against Ad Mech, DE, Yinnari, Marines, Guard, varous Spam Lists and Chaos). As you can see, everything that starts on the board is t6 - t8. The list has 10 Las Cannons, and at the right range you'll have 70+ shots to deal with infantry from the vehicles and Dreads alone.

The Grav Devastators can fire 27 Grav shots at a unit upon disembarking and using the Cherub. With Guilliman you'll be looking at 17+ hits with re rolls to wound doing d3 damage each against 3+ save targets. Enough to remove a tough infantry unit or creature running towards your lines.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

You think at 6CP and getting some back on 5+ is enough at 1850 though? Or 2k as the case may be. Edited August 10, 2017 by Immersturm

[Ishagu]

You think at 6CP and getting some back on 5+ is enough at 1850 though? Or 2k as the case may be.

With most detachments and Guilliman you'll have 7CP as even the Spearhead gives 1 Command Point. I think it will be enough as long as you're not planning to factor Orbital Bombardment into your tactics.

 

Always save 3 for a re-roll for Guilliman and the chance to attack in combat again if he's slain!

[Frater Cornelius]

You will need a second HQ alongside Chronus to get the Spearhead, at which point getting a Battalion might be better. With your setup it is impossible to get 7 unless you drop something for a HQ, which are all so bloody expensive and useless next to Gman Oo

[Ishagu]

It's only 1 HQ requirement for the Spearhead :-)

 

I do have a nice Primaris focused list I could also share that's built around a Battalion.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ishagu

[Hopper21]

Ishagu that would be fantastic if that's ok mate!? Loving last list!