What Should Things Really Cost?

[The Unseen]

More Specifically, our unique wargear and units that are basically all over-costed by a ridiculous margin, especially when compared to other factions. My local friends/opponents are letting me adjust some points costs with their approval for our games, after I showed them some of the disparity, including using the new codex points. These include:

 

{

Angelus Boltguns, which are somehow almost the cost of a heavy bolter, despite being basically just a worse master-crafted bolter, which costs 1/3 as much.

 

Encarmine Weapons: Now cost more than a vanilla marines power fist, which means (if your using new points values, which I assume will be ported over to the BA codex whenever it comes out) its just always the right choice to take a power fist, which doesn't make any sense. The Encarmine Axe costs more than a thunder hammer for crying out loud.

 

Inferno Pistols, Ours cost 20, everyone else's cost's 12, unless your a dirty pointy-eared elf, in which case theirs is 9 points

 

Hand Flamers, though their cost is fine if they were Pistol D6, you know, like the ones SoB get. Which cost's 2 points less even.

 

And finally the one that no one really cares about, Blood Talons, which for some reason cost 15 points more than the Furioso Fists, so you go from re-rolls to hit with a flat 3 damage, to no re-rolls and a D6 damage, or in other words basically a straight downgrade unless you feel really really lucky.

}

 

Please note that this is not me "venting" or anything, I've done that elsewhere, I just want to get a feel for what the community thinks are fair points for our options.

 

In all honesty, I kinda just want to use the sister's points exactly for our pistols, so 6 point D6 Pistol Hand Flamers, and 12 point inferno Pistols, especially since other factions get even more use out of "Inferno" pistols in the form of fusion pistols, and theirs cost 9. Damn elven clowns especially.

 

Angelus Bolters I would seriously cost them the same as a special issue bolter. They then trade a point of ap and 30" Rapid Fire 1, to 12" Assault 2, which still isn't the best thing ever, and the plasma pistol is still really tempting, but at least it isn't an absolute no-brainer choice to take the plasma if the bolters cost 2 vs the plasmas 7.

 

And the hardest to judge for myself, Encarmine Weapons. Could GW just hurry up and make Encarmine=regular relic blades already? Le sigh. Anyway, I know that Encarmine weapons cost the same as the equivalent force weapon, but there is no way that an encarmine sword is worth 13 when a power fist is 12, and you can almost buy a proper relic blade for the cost of the axe, which has +1 Str and Ap for 21 vs 16.

Idk whats actually fair, since their definitely better than Lightning Claws, which are 8 points, but worse than fists, at 12. but I also don't know why single lightning claws are so expensive, since they perform like 10% better than power axes most of the time. So maybe 8 pts for the Sword and 9 for the Axe?

 

What do you guys think?

 

[Commander Dawnstar]

GW errata'd Sisters' Hand Flamers to do D3 hits. Obviously that doesn't affect your complaint about differing points costs, but at least they're not cheaper and better.
 

I sympathise with you on all this though; it definitely sounds like you guys could use some attention. Hopefully GW will give you a hand when you get your Codex.

[Silverson]

Tho not a perfect fit for what your asking, a little while back there was this thread

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335981-ba-a-gathering-of-suggestions/

 

That went through a few things that need changing and I think a few point values were suggested.

 

We all know that when doing the indexes (at least from a blood angels perspective) that the blood angels unique units were left in the wilderness. But we have a real good possibility in the near future that our codex will abbress a lot of these issues.

[Spagunk]

My opinion?

Angelus pistols should cost similar to the equivalent Primaris weapon. So looking at between 2-4 points. If they were 2 damage, maybe 6 points but definitely not 9 ( )

 

Infernos pistols need to be lower. I don't remember if Sisters are +3 to hit but if they are, then we need to match their price.

 

Hand flamers are absolutely over cost. There really isn't much use for them since they only wound on 5's against marines. D3 hits just aren't worth the exorbitant price. Match sisters pricing.

 

Blood Talons? Not certain. They definitely need to come down in price (as well as fists) as I equate them to be similar to Iron Clads which saw a huge reduction. Let's say half their current price and the same for fists.

 

Now, for Encarmine weapons. If they want to keep the same points, they need better rules. I vote add in an extra attack if the unit charges that turn to the weapons to keep the points. If not, then they need to be 8pts for swords and 10 points for axes.

[Boudan]

Blood Talons need a reworking if the upgrade is intended to capture the spirit of Blood Talons from earlier codex (codicies?).  Blood Talons made Furioso dreads more expensive, but insane in melee against elites.  I don't think the current benefit reflects that which made Blood Talons fearsome in 7th ed.  2d6 wounds without a re-roll maybe, but I don't see that happening.  So cost-wise as currently written, I'd say no point increase, but rather an option to take instead of Fists without additional cost.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Boudan

[Karhedron]

Maybe allowing Blood Talons to generate extra attacks when they roll a 6. That would be fairly fluffy.

[Father Mapple]

2d6 damage per wound only if taken as a pair of Dreadnought CCw might work but prepare to keep the price the same instead of seeing a price difference like the ironclad.

 

2 lascannon shots per model are 50pts, and still have to hit, roll armor save, etc. This would be more lethal than that, but no cover and must be in melee.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Father Mapple

[The Unseen]

Maybe allowing Blood Talons to generate extra attacks when they roll a 6. That would be fairly fluffy.

 

That's what they used to do, actually. Fists hit harder, but Talons blended.

 

And 2d6 wounds flat is absolute insanity. A Knight Reaper chainsword does a flat 6. There's no way giving a dreadnought an average of 7 damage per hit is feasible.

[Father Mapple]

2 lascannon shots that wound do 2d6, and you can be 48 inches away. Not getting much armor save either against them. I can get an average of 2d6 damage on any point Target with T7 and 3+armor save with... Two razorbacks, or a harder to hit option of 5 devastators. 2 Razorbacks with twin lascannon are way more mobile and survivable than 1 Dreadnought that has to be in close combat. For not even 15% points more if i remember right.

4 lascannon shots means against a 3+ armor and T8 or lower target, the shooting causes 1.5 unsaved wounds for 1.5x d6 damage. 1.5x average roll of 3.5, you get 5.25 damage.

Dreadnought in close combat with same opponent, Sx2 talons, and 5 attacks, will cause 1.7x unsaved winds with 1.7x 2d6 damage. or 11.9 damage on average. No meaningful shooting more than 12 inches, and you have to be in combat, which in most situations is Turn 2 at earliest. This can be mitigated by making the Talons a lower strength than x2 bonus, like in 5th edition. That means hitting T7 and above mitigates the damage and keeps a dreadnought with them at an elite infantry blending role. 

I don't think it's unreasonable, as it's a dreadnought without the survivability of other options who shoot much further or are Knight Titans. 

Knights get 4 attacks, hit on 3s, S12 so they wound almost anything on 3+, and cause 1.4 unsaved wounds on similar high T targets, but cause 6 damage. 

EDIT: I edited this like 10 times. Dumb phone.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Father Mapple

[TheHarrower]

Here's how I would do it.

• Angelus Boltgun 2 (I would argue for 0 points here. They aren't as good as a Bolt Rifle having shorter range.)
• Encarmine Sword 12 (Same stats and cost as a Force Sword.)
• Encarmine Axe 16 (Same stats and cost as a Force Axe.)
• Infernus Pistol 12
• Hand Flamer 6 (Should probably be 4, but I'd keep them in line with SoB.)
• Blood Talons 45 (Should probably be 40, but don't want to tilt too far one way. Ironclad Close Combat weapon is 0. Our Dreads are due for a hugh decrease in points, but I think that goes too far with what you are trying to do and you don't want to go down that rabbit hole.)

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I would argue Angelus Bolter should be free.

Storm Bolter 2 pts... Hurricane Bolter 4 pts ...

 

I doubt I would pay more than 1-2 pts for a hand flamer. They are pretty worthless even then, but maybe bettter than a chainsword so 1 pt?.

 

Inferno Pistol no more than 3-4 points as is. Unless the range is fixed; or we get some useful ability to apply them. I prolly won't use them otherwise.

 

Our dreadnoughts need to come down in price.

As does the Baal Predator.

 

It was kinda tolerable when it was index on index. Now... bleh.

So much stuff needs adjusting/fixed... I just hope they make a good codex. =)

[tychobi]

While it is disheartening to have codex marines leapfrog us in the rules race I am going to remain hopeful that our codex will bring us to an acceptable level.  For now we fight uphill when dueling our blue, green, yellow(not so much), black (-1 to hit? seriously?), also black(reroll charge would have been sweet), pink, chartreuse, beige, etc brothers.  Most factions still have only their indexes to go on so we are far from being left in the dust overall. 

 

There are some really silly point discrepancies that could use an adjustment from our list (dreads, baal pred, pfist, hand flamer, inferno pistol, land speeders) but I feel like these are inevitable easy fixes and patience will solve our issues. Some things go the other way (razor backs are too cheap/good, devastators, some characters)

 

My hope is that the units that were gutted into complete uselessness and given odd rules that change how the fundamentally work are going to be changed.  A bit more of a challenge for the GW designers this.  I have noticed far less press/attention on this aspect of balance.

 

Drop Pod: old pricing may have been cheap but new price and stats are just bad.  100+pts is a monster premium to deep strike.  Leading to my next point.

Frag Cannon/Furioso:  8" is just silly.  10" and it has a role. 12" is more like it.  Or let us fire the alt ammo from Death Watch. For now Storm Raven is the only way to field the thing and even then I am skeptical.  Why GW why?!?!?!? For an edition that seems to allow rather than restrict this change was odd and poorly thought out.  You can charge from deep strike but no flamers!  golly gee!?!?!?  

 

Sorry the salt is real.

 

I for one would like to see a small points hike for infantry, our dreads left alone, and a really bad ass "chapter tactic".  Oh and fix flamers.  8" is just insulting.

[Spagunk]

While it is disheartening to have codex marines leapfrog us in the rules race I am going to remain hopeful that our codex will bring us to an acceptable level.  For now we fight uphill when dueling our blue, green, yellow(not so much), black (-1 to hit? seriously?), also black(reroll charge would have been sweet), pink, chartreuse, beige, etc brothers.  Most factions still have only their indexes to go on so we are far from being left in the dust overall. 

 

There are some really silly point discrepancies that could use an adjustment from our list (dreads, baal pred, pfist, hand flamer, inferno pistol, land speeders) but I feel like these are inevitable easy fixes and patience will solve our issues. Some things go the other way (razor backs are too cheap/good, devastators, some characters)

 

My hope is that the units that were gutted into complete uselessness and given odd rules that change how the fundamentally work are going to be changed.  A bit more of a challenge for the GW designers this.  I have noticed far less press/attention on this aspect of balance.

 

Drop Pod: old pricing may have been cheap but new price and stats are just bad.  100+pts is a monster premium to deep strike.  Leading to my next point.

Frag Cannon/Furioso:  8" is just silly.  10" and it has a role. 12" is more like it.  Or let us fire the alt ammo from Death Watch. For now Storm Raven is the only way to field the thing and even then I am skeptical.  Why GW why?!?!?!? For an edition that seems to allow rather than restrict this change was odd and poorly thought out.  You can charge from deep strike but no flamers!  !?!?!?  

 

Sorry the salt is real.

 

I for one would like to see a small points hike for infantry, our dreads left alone, and a really bad ass "chapter tactic".  Oh and fix flamers.  8" is just insulting.

 

Because, and this is pure speculation, the initial play testers didn't field a good BA force. I am wildly guessing but I think they ran mostly dreads in pods and death company. The testers thought it was too powerful and so they got nerfed/priced pretty hard this edition.

 

Given the unit abuse I see from "tournament organizers" and tournament winners (who are one of the main stake holders for codex balances), I suspect we are going to see some really odd price increases in places. Common weapons and units may see a normalization but our unique units are likely to see more issues than less.

 

I guess our main thing is to actively provide feedback to GW instead of just waiting for them to do something. We need to out weigh those who have the most say in re-balances.

 

6 storm ravens and Dante...what a load of :

Edited August 10, 2017 by Spagunk

[Karhedron]

Given that the Codex is due to drop in November, I would be surprised if there is going to be time for any adjustment now. Given the time it takes to print and distribute, I suspect that if it is not finalised, it must be very close.

[Spagunk]

Given that the Codex is due to drop in November, I would be surprised if there is going to be time for any adjustment now. Given the time it takes to print and distribute, I suspect that if it is not finalised, it must be very close.

 

I still doubt this will happen in November. I am assuming that BA, DA and SW are going to be 2018.

[Jolemai]

Given that the Codex is due to drop in November, I would be surprised if there is going to be time for any adjustment now. Given the time it takes to print and distribute, I suspect that if it is not finalised, it must be very close.

Have you a source for that please? Last leak I saw said diddly squat for us this year.

[Blindhamster]

there was one going about on some of the 40k groups on facebook which had us and tyranids in november - which would make sense with devestation of baal, and the fact that doing all the marine codexes close together should be pretty easy for them as most of it is copy paste work.

But nothing reliable.

[Tonius]

A new boxed set: "devastation of Baal" including new BA minis and ruined BA temples !!!

That would be cool !

[Karhedron]

Have you a source for that please? Last leak I saw said diddly squat for us this year.

This is what I have seen. Take with a big pinch of salt naturally.

 

[Tonius]

Hope it's a real GW leak :)

[Blindhamster]

Well, the gk/chaos dates out by a week. So we shall see I guess

[Boudan]

 

Maybe allowing Blood Talons to generate extra attacks when they roll a 6. That would be fairly fluffy.

 

 

That's what they used to do, actually. Fists hit harder, but Talons blended.

 

And 2d6 wounds flat is absolute insanity. A Knight Reaper chainsword does a flat 6. There's no way giving a dreadnought an average of 7 damage per hit is feasible.

I think blood talons granted Shred in 7th, re-rolls to wounds for melee. It also lacked Unwieldly, unlike power fists. So a Furioso with Talons hit faster and generated more wounds.

 

Perhaps for 8th a better rule would be d6+reroll and some additional rule reflecting the more agile nature of the talons.

 

This sort of rule would warrant paying more points.

[TheHarrower]

I would argue Angelus Bolter should be free.

Storm Bolter 2 pts... Hurricane Bolter 4 pts ...

 

I doubt I would pay more than 1-2 pts for a hand flamer. They are pretty worthless even then, but maybe bettter than a chainsword so 1 pt?.

 

Inferno Pistol no more than 3-4 points as is. Unless the range is fixed; or we get some useful ability to apply them. I prolly won't use them otherwise.

 

Our dreadnoughts need to come down in price.

As does the Baal Predator.

 

It was kinda tolerable when it was index on index. Now... bleh.

So much stuff needs adjusting/fixed... I just hope they make a good codex. =)

 

Everything you said I agree, but if he is making point adjustments in good faith with his gaming group you have to point cost things similar to gear that already exists. Otherwise you end up going down the rabbit hole of needing to recost everything and then redoing points for other people's armies as well. That's why I went more conservative. With the Predator dropping 10 and the changes to Power Fists and Thunder Hammers I was able to eke out a lot more in my list. Even these slight adjustments would help out a ton.

[Jorre]

I also heard November... in slightly related/unrelated news I was listening to a Guy Haley interview and he mentioned the next Dante/devastation of Baal book is coming out in November to.

 

Might be gw trying to tie everything together for us and the bugs

[Hillslam]

Can I be Debbie Downer and say I've never seen GW right-size the BA costs with releases or faqs since 6th. So I have low expectations for the codex. BA just seems to be getting costlier and costlier since before 6th Ed.

 

I worry the index will be as good as it gets.