Optimising our Alpha Strike

[Holier Than Thou]

I am quite playing on alpha strike right now and I also think it's one of the directions the game is going at the moment.

Personally, I think the issue of alpha strike should be considered together to the one of going first, or at least trying to do so (alpha striking going second is not the same think, like, at all!).

For this reason, I am making some experiments with a quite low unit count armies and see how they perform.

The one I am playing at the moment is this one:

GK Vanguard detachment

GM (vortex, hammerhand)

Apothecary (sanctuary)

10 paladins w7 4 psilencers (gate)

10 paladins w7 4 psilencers (gate)

SM Vanguard detachment (raven guard or iron hands)

techmarine

venerable shooty dreadnought

venerable shooty dreadnought

venerable shooty dreadnought

 

I'd say I quite like the interactions betwenn shooty dreadnoughts and alpha strike units. Compared to other vehicles, they can stay where they are and shoot until wrecked, and combining venerable 2+ with the reroll stratagem you have a quite reliable shooting platform to support your alpha. Then things get so hot in you ds zone that your opponent usually hasn't all the time and resources to deal with them immediately (techmarine can help with spare wounds).

About the ds units, I chose paladins to minimize unit count. This way you have a much smaller number of shots but have good chances of going first greatly compensates for that in my opinion.

Boosted vortex of doom has also been quite a good surprise. Definitely, my favored psychic power at the moment together with gate.

When not getting first I try to separate and hide the dreadnoughts from first fire.

When got initiative stolen... well, that roll always sucked anyway! :P

PS: I really wanted to make it full gk, but going psychic with dreadnought for its cost makes really no sense compared to the free ability of chapters. And let's not even compare techmarines!!

Are you taking the Loremaster trait? If not, the Grand Master only knows 1 power.

[Sweetcurse]

But it'd be nice to completely hide those psychic venerables and use astral aim. Though less shooting without two las.

[Seizeman]

Rolling for initiative is a lot better than getting it automatically, as it makes deployment a lot more strategic and interesting. Knowing who plays first before deploying leads to predictable and extreme deployments, with no real strategic choices.  Not knowing who's playing first favours interaction and forces to carefully think every deployment.

 

Also, having the first turn is not very relevant to alpha striking. You almost never do it on the first turn and is better to wait for a good possition. In fact, it is very often the best option to give the initiative to the opponent, specially if the objectives are closer to your zone. The opponent will have to close the distance and his first turn will be wasted, as he will be too far (maybe he will have to advance too), you will have cover and some of their units won't have good targets. You don't have anything good to do first turn anyway most of the times, and having the last turn is really powerful, specially when it comes to grabbing objectives.

 

About your list, shooty dreads go just in the opposite direction than GK armies want to go. Shooty dreads are fine in shooting-centered armies, as you will want to play defensively, waiting for the opponent to close the distance, which gives you some turns to shoot at them, while their melee and close-range shooting units can't do any real damage, but you defeat the whole purpose by having a close combat force on top of the enemy just as the game start. You are putting targets just in front of the enemy for them to shoot and charge, which nullifies any advantage thet the dread's long range might give you. Not only that, you are going to lock their units in combat, so the dreads won't be able to shoot them. Also, what are you going to do if the opponent drops some tau suits with fusion, Imperial Guard Scions or something similar on your backline and attacks your dreads? You have no way to protect them as your army is on the opposide side, so they can't help, or,  if your deep strikers respond by deploying to protect the dreads, then you have to reach their main army with terminators on foot, which is not going to happen. If the opponent seizes the initiative (or just goes first if you are using the new rules), you just loose on the spot. Also, shooty dreads are in general pretty inefficient, as you are paying for attacks and WS which you are not going to use (in your case you are not even going to take advantage  of their range).

 

There's no point in having your army split in two halves wich work in completely opposite ways, with no sinergy between them. Have you ever heard of "divide and conquer"? If you divide yourself even before starting the game, you stand no chance.

 

On a side note, 10 man paladin squads are not very good, as you are loosing a paragon and a psychic power for no real gain. Also they are a lot more difficult to manoeuvre and less tactically versatile. Four or five-man units with 2 or 3 hammers work a lot better. Also, that's too many paladins in general. Paladins, while very good at their job, are just not as efficient as strike squads. A couple of units totalling 10 or less are more than enough (at 2000 points at least). Oh, and using nothing but paladins for melee damage is pretty risky, as they get screwed by heavy hitting mosters and vehicles like dreadnoughts, demon princes, NDKS or tyranid monsters. You need some heavy hitters of your own.

 

If you want a list that's more synergistic and effective, with a similar strategy and the same unit (deployment) count (and 7 CPs), please try this one:

 

2 x GMDNK. Psilencer, Psycanon, sword

1 x Grand master voldus

2 x Paladin squad (4) 3 hammers,1 falchion, bolters

1 x Apothecary. Hammer

3 x Strike squad (5) bolters and falchions

3 x Razorback. Assault cannons, 2 storm bolters.

[sirk]

Thanks for the suggestions, anyway I have to say that I'm doing quite fine with mine and will for sure adjust something but, in general, I like how it synergizes and reacts (this, unless of course I am completely unable to play some game, that, for the moment, it's not happening).

Respectfully, I don't agree with your analysis. Shooty dreadnoughts works really fine with first turn deepstike alpha in my experience. If you want to do an alpha strike, there is really no point most of the times in delaying it, you are eating enemy fire meanwhile. The whole idea behind alpha, to me, is removing as much as you can in your very first turn and capitalize that advantage in later turns. For this reason shooty dreads are my first choice to have on field: they are the unit that can shoot with everything from turn one doing the most damage per point (most of the times).
About engaging, I'm not going to engage every opposing unit, dreads will just shoot something else! And if my opponents answers by deepstriking something to kill the dreads (happens almost all the time) I either let him do it if there are no objective there or I gate a paladin unit back. That's what gate is for

Anyway, don't want to sound pretentious, I'm not. I am just stating that I am doing really well with that list against several opponents. I will anyway try yours, but, as long as rules stays as they are, I really like the fact of knowing I will get the first turn most likely because this allows me to design the list on that strategically.


By the way, I have been playing paladins heavy lists as long as they have existed, so I am also quite used in that kind of game and probably I play it better than other kind of armies.

Oh, and yes, I was trying trait Lore Master. First to the Fray is also good, but since I am making only two charges, I prefer the command point reroll as it allow me to keep the highest die. I had also tried with First to the Fray, but then I like to have gate on both paladin units, and I want also hammerhand, doom and vortex,


Hide the dreads and use Astral Aim is interesting, but as long as the rule of one power stays, it would only work for one on three :(

Edited August 13, 2017 by sirk

[Seizeman]

You are probably playing against bad players. There's absolutely no way you can alpha strike first turn against any decent list. Every army has scouts/gaunts/kroot/conscripts/etc to deny your deep strike. You are going do deploy too far from the good targets, you are going to kill some chaff and then the opponent will counter-attack and blow you to pieces. You have to remove the bubble wrapping first or force it to disperse, and you are not going to achieve that with some dreadnoughts.

 

And shooty dreadnoughts being inefficient is just fact (specially if you add a techmarine). Just compare them to predators, devastators or stormravens. They barely surpass lascannon razorbacks.

 

About wanting to go first, my list has exactly the same number of deployments as yours (there's still several armies that will go first, tho).

[sirk]

I'm not so sure about per point efficiency at long range, expecially now that we have the dreddy reroll.
I will run against the math but I'm pretty sure they are superior to several of the choices you mentioned. Of course Space Marine dreads, not ours.

Edited August 13, 2017 by sirk

[Seizeman]

Yes, space marine ones, they are less efficient than those three alternatives. In fact, compared to the predator and the raven, they are less efficient both offensively AND defensively. Of course, with GK dreadnoughts it is even worse.

[Waking Dreamer]

Are you taking the Loremaster trait? If not, the Grand Master only knows 1 power.

Did that change in the codex? In the Index a GM can use 2 Sanctic Powers and 1 DtW.

[hairojin]

In both the index and codex he can use two powers but he can only take one extra power.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

Are you taking the Loremaster trait? If not, the Grand Master only knows 1 power.

Did that change in the codex? In the Index a GM can use 2 Sanctic Powers and 1 DtW.

He can use 2 but only knows 1 plus Smite.

[sirk]

Yes, space marine ones, they are less efficient than those three alternatives. In fact, compared to the predator and the raven, they are less efficient both offensively AND defensively. Of course, with GK dreadnoughts it is even worse.

Intuitively that didn't sound to me, so I ran the math.

If your math comes out different, you must have been using different target statistics or different range, or used someonelse's (wrong ) math. I'm speaking about antivehicle shooting with 30" or more range.

 

Wounds inflicted against vehicle stats (T7, 3+) per 100pts

 

- Stormraven (twin lascannon, typhoon, 2x stormstrike) 2,19

- Predator (twin lascannon, two lascannons) 2,73

- Dreadnought (twin autocannon, twin lascannon) 2,84

- Predator (same as above) using 1 command to reroll a hit 2,96

- Predator (same as above) once per game hunter-killer missile turn 3,18

- Predator (same as above) next to a reroll 1 aura 3,18

- Dreadnought (twin autocannon, twin lascannon) with command point rerolls 3,31

 

Also, among the options listes, they are the unit with the narrower gaussian (because of rerollable 2+), that means the most reliable chance of doing around the average, which, to me, is a great plus instead of relying on all those 3+.

 

If you have different results, please show me.

Edited August 14, 2017 by sirk

[Seizeman]

You are using suboptimal configurations for the raven. Raven works better with plasma and melta (and hurricanes, of course), which puts it at 3,45 wounds per 100 pts (2.9 if shooting at more than 12"). Also it is the option that's most likely to have GM rerolls (or astral aim) and, of course, it also acts as a transport and it is more durable.

 

I miscalculated the predator's damage, it comes just a little behind the dread's 2,8 wounds per 100 points (it is just a bit more durable, but it also degrades, so all in all I'd say the dread is better). Still, the lascannon devastators come ahead of the dread with 3,1 wounds per 100 points. Of course, both the predator and the devastators have the same problem than the dread has about being totally unsinergistic with the rest of the army. Also all of these options force you to take a Space marine HQ, which adds to their cost.

 

So, to wrap it up, if you want some extra firepower for your GK army, just pick a Stormraven.

[skarn]

Ive been mucking around with using a small inquisitorial henchmen unit to help with my gk alpha strike. 6 units of 1 plasma henchmen plus an inquisitor in an aquila is 275pts and means I can keep 8 gk units in reserve.