Stormraven Strike Teams

[chapter master 454]

What are the thoughts on, in small games (1000points/51PP) the idea of instead of bringing say a more standard army but a compact 'strike team'?

 

When I refer to this I do so from experience: having faced space wolves using wulfen aboard stormfangs(or whichever one carries 16 dudes), they are extremely effective to the point of silliness. So I thought, what about the more standard marines, can we effectively deploy a killer 'strike team'?

 

Naturally we don't have the godlike wulfen (or it feels like it when i face them...stormfangs on their base are so long they can hide behind trees far too easily) however we do have access to various elite choices that pack some mean wallop along with one other benefit: our sky bus can carry a full tin can of ancient butt kickery (a dreadnought who preferably doesn't mind heights XD).

 

So the options are varied on what can be brought within a strike team but our totals are such: 12 standard marines slots + 1 non-redemptor dreadnought. So naturally lets ask about which dreadnought to bring (if we do): Ironclad, Venerable, Contemptor or vanilla. Naturally 3 of them are more of a toolbox can vary their armaments and come with various degrees of durability (from vanilla to contemptor with venerable being a middle ground imo) thus meaning we can support our strike team with heavy guns if they need them for some reason however this can be covered largely by the sky bus. This pushes a question to why bring those dreads, main reason being their ranged power can be devastating while still holding a good grip on arm wrestling. Ironclads get a lot going for them with this: our main tactic is to run up and punch them in the face ether with bullets or large sharp and blunt instruments of varying shapes. Certainly no one choice is perfect for everything but the question is what would you think is best?

 

 Following on we have to pick what flavour of boots we dropkick the enemy with. Now naturally there is a preference for melee here however the two options I largely see are between the three veteran types: Company, Vanguard and Sternguard. We could take terminators but considering their price and space they take up they are largely not meant for sky bus travel...they put their bags on the seats apparently. So going from least to most preferred (personally) we have Sternguard: Bolter Blitz Special. Slap yourself with an imperial fist seal of approval and drop in next to some poor saps and let loose. Those boltguns tagged with AP-2 can make even marines have a bad time and being followed by a charge can easily leave the shattered remains in shallow graves.

 Next up is Company Veterans: being free to carry whatever they like from special weapons if their unique calling card for this role thus meaning you can tailor as you feel needed but the main armament in my opinion would be plasma gun central with maybe a few meltaguns for those bigger targets. Similar to Sternguard these guys drop in and let loose with firepower. The main draw to these guys over sternguard is the superior punch but at risk along with points cost.

 Top of my picks is vanguards: Tailor these boys with a mix of paired lightning claws and storm shield thunder hammer combos and you have yourself a certified butcher squad. The main loss is range but when we are dropping in for tea and biscuits we don't care for the hallway greeting and our handshake game is fairly strong. Coupled with melee being extremely strong this edition so far, these guys will likely tear up a fair few lists before being stopped.

 

 Naturally we now need some leadership and maybe a spare elite choice to fill out the elite choice on the vanguard FOC. This does vary between Captains, librarians and chaplains depending on what you bring backed by ether the company ancient or apothecary. Chaplains favour the melee focused vanguard while captains form a good buff for the shooty elements. This section is really dependent on your call but my call is chaplain with apothecary. Reason for that is since my thoughts are to go vanguard, you pack re-rolls for hit in melee raw and the apothecary is there to give the shields a quick elast-a-plast on the Storm shields who ate the lascannon/wulfen axe to the face.

 

Finally is the choice of how to arm your sky bus. It varies wildly but I would believe it best to arm up with anti-tank as if you face an army that wants to hide in metal bawkes you'll need to open those up so in my eyes you bring twin lascannon + Multi-melta and then strap hurricanes on purely because they are cheap. This gives you a very killy sky bus while making it able to handle most problems. 

 

What are your thoughts on this idea of strike team tactics? What would you bring? How would you counter it within reason (no tailoring, more like how to deploy and what weapons would you have brought with this list in mind along with various other lists)?

 

Edit: forgot to mention the wording on this post is meant to keep a light tone. Quite a long post so a smile here and there helps keep you guys interested

[Alcyon]

I just posted this elsewhere but my 2¢ is it really depends on the army. For RG for example I think the -1 to hit outside of 12" means melta- and plasma guns are worse, and they also have SftS so midrange units can deploy that way instead. In that type of list, I think the skybus is best as a way to pick up units that have already deployed but have limited mobility, and fly them to another objective; say Terminators who already teleported in, or a unit deployed with SftS that no longer needs to hold the objective they're on. I would maybe start Assault Terminators inside a Stormraven but that'd be it.

 

IMO Blood Angels get the best use out of Stormravens with Death Company, a relatively inexpensive and very killy unit that doesn't have any unique buffs to jump packs the way RG do (Shrike's re-roll charges). Librarian Dreadnought along for the ride can grant both +1 attack in CC and a 4+ invulnerable which is amazing and it's a character so it can't be easily targeted by A/T, and then you can take Corbulo who grants not only +1 Str but +1 attack on 6s AS WELL as being an apothecary himself, and he can't take a jump pack so it's the best way to get him near CC. I'm actually considering running a BA detachment for just this combo with an RG battalion for everything else.

[uldrick]

for the price of 10 vangurads vets with uprgrades, you could get some centurion assault squad ( they take 3 space each). a 3 man squad with 4 flamers ans 2 meltaguns and hurricanes bolters

wouldn't they be good candidate?

[chapter master 454]

for the price of 10 vangurads vets with uprgrades, you could get some centurion assault squad ( they take 3 space each). a 3 man squad with 4 flamers ans 2 meltaguns and hurricanes bolters

 

wouldn't they be good candidate?

 

Sadly they get the cut. While they are durable and certainly hit hard however they only have 7 attacks vs. 21 attacks from vanguard (with the loadout I mention you get 26 because of paired lightning claws). The aim of the unit is to be able to murder anything and that includes possible larger units (10+) and thunder hammers are most than enough to murder larger targets (10 attacks with re-roll to hit with 50% wound rate at -3 means unless they have invunerables out the rear they are about to eat a lot of damage at 3 per failed save) while even lighhtning claws do still chip away. This isn't also factoring in the dreadnought support so yea. The main reason for my options were melee to be effective however I feel centurions are better carried by land raiders (if we had a stormfang capacity of 16 and this could have 5 of them + a HQ or 4 + buff squadron special then maybe but they are too fat really).

 

They certainly hit hard but not enough times. More a case you need number of attacks rather than hard hitting.

[uldrick]

i beg to differ.

your squad loadout cost a minimum of 360 pts for 10 VV with TH, add a bare captain and you are near 400 pts

for 379  pts, you can have 3 assault centurions with 6 flamers and 3 hurrican bolters and vulkan. that gives you less attack on melee BUT, you have 6D6 flamer shots and 18 to 36 bolter shots (thanks to vulkan, you re-roll 1's to hit on bolters and re-roll all wounds with flamers) add the 1 CP flamecraft stratagem (which hgas no equivalent for melee i believe) and you get the following stats:

assault centurions(flamers and hurricane bolters)+vulkan+flamecraft (1cp) stategium, lots of flamer wounds (re-rollable), add to that a lot of shooting from the HB (with re-rolls of 1's from vulkan) and then a very scary charge!

will deal on average:  

vs Orks:
26.3 dmg on shooting
8.14 dmg on melee (24.4 if targets have 3 wounds)
a potential of 50.7 wounds, (or 34 dead orks of 1 wounds each, a whole squad)
 

vs MEQ:
10.5 dmg on shooting
6.78 dmg on melee (20.3 if targets have 3 wounds)
a potential of 30.8 wounds (or 17.28 dead marines), which is scary at the very least. 

VS TEQ:
5.2 dmg on shooting
5.42 dmg on melee (16.28 if targets have 3 wounds)
a potential of 21.48 wounds (or about 8 dead terminator)

vs tanks (T8, 3+)
4.66 dmg on shooting
16.28 dmg on melee (assuming lots of wounds capacity)
a total of 20.94 wounds, which can kill everything short of some super-heavies and lord of war.

you could even swith 2 flamers for 2 meltaguns on one of them to add flexibility at the cost of horde killing power, and tyhis does not take into account vulkan shooting and assaulting with them or the master artisan chapter trait, which would iomprove this even further)

compairaing them with 10 VV with TH. you get:

VS orks:
11.7 wounds on melee (or 35.1 if target has 3 wounds)
clear disadvantage vs assault centurions with only 11.7 dead orks vs 34

vs meq:
9.7w on melee (or 29.17 dmg if targets have 3 w) 
notice how it's less dmg than the assault centurions and even less dead marines (10)

VS TEQ:
7.8w on melee (or 23.4 dmg if targets has 3 wounds)
here, you are at parity vs the assault centurions

VS tanks (T8, 3+)
29.25 wounds (assuming lots of wounds)
here, you have a clear advantage, but we are at pure overkill setting, overshooting even landraider by almost double, BUT quite usefull against lords of war vehicule and can help when you begin the take causaulties by maintaining the ability to kill such targets even with disminished squad.
 

once again, not counting the direct ouput of the characters In here, only their aura.

now, for the overall comparaison, we can add that centurion will be more vulnerable to high str and high dmg attack such as lascanon or thunder hammers since that could kill models more quickly but they are a LOT more resilient against small arms. VV, will be more vulnerable to small arms,  but will be less affected by hig str and multiple dmg weapons since only 1 can die to each wound of these weapons. You can always give some of them storm shields, but that make the VV even more expensive but still as vulnerable against small arms.

also, the VV can move 6’’ where the assault cent can only do 4’’, which can change a situation a lot, BUT the centurions also bolster a quite impressive shooting capability which can be very usefull, especially with split fire that everybody has now and the fact that they ignore cover with their omniscope. Plus, they can be quite deadly to assault since their overwatch can be quite deadly, even if you are not in flamer range, those hurricane bolters will pump a lot of shots.

I seriously think they are one of the best thing to put inside a raven, especialy if you give them an apothecary to support them and use te rest of your army to remove the big guns of the enemy (or if you present them with enough tough targets o confuse their targeting priority), those guys will be deadly and they are much more versatile than the VV with hammer.

[chapter master 454]

i beg to differ.

 

your squad loadout cost a minimum of 360 pts for 10 VV with TH, add a bare captain and you are near 400 pts

 

for 379  pts, you can have 3 assault centurions with 6 flamers and 3 hurrican bolters and vulkan. that gives you less attack on melee BUT, you have 6D6 flamer shots and 18 to 36 bolter shots (thanks to vulkan, you re-roll 1's to hit on bolters and re-roll all wounds with flamers) add the 1 CP flamecraft stratagem (which hgas no equivalent for melee i believe) and you get the following stats:

assault centurions(flamers and hurricane bolters)+vulkan+flamecraft (1cp) stategium, lots of flamer wounds (re-rollable), add to that a lot of shooting from the HB (with re-rolls of 1's from vulkan) and then a very scary charge!

 

will deal on average:  

 

vs Orks:

26.3 dmg on shooting

8.14 dmg on melee (24.4 if targets have 3 wounds)

a potential of 50.7 wounds, (or 34 dead orks of 1 wounds each, a whole squad)

 

vs MEQ:

10.5 dmg on shooting

6.78 dmg on melee (20.3 if targets have 3 wounds)

a potential of 30.8 wounds (or 17.28 dead marines), which is scary at the very least. 

 

VS TEQ:

5.2 dmg on shooting

5.42 dmg on melee (16.28 if targets have 3 wounds)

a potential of 21.48 wounds (or about 8 dead terminator)

 

vs tanks (T8, 3+)

4.66 dmg on shooting

16.28 dmg on melee (assuming lots of wounds capacity)

a total of 20.94 wounds, which can kill everything short of some super-heavies and lord of war.

 

you could even swith 2 flamers for 2 meltaguns on one of them to add flexibility at the cost of horde killing power, and tyhis does not take into account vulkan shooting and assaulting with them or the master artisan chapter trait, which would iomprove this even further)

 

compairaing them with 10 VV with TH. you get:

 

VS orks:

11.7 wounds on melee (or 35.1 if target has 3 wounds)

clear disadvantage vs assault centurions with only 11.7 dead orks vs 34

 

vs meq:

9.7w on melee (or 29.17 dmg if targets have 3 w) 

notice how it's less dmg than the assault centurions and even less dead marines (10)

 

VS TEQ:

7.8w on melee (or 23.4 dmg if targets has 3 wounds)

here, you are at parity vs the assault centurions

 

VS tanks (T8, 3+)

29.25 wounds (assuming lots of wounds)

here, you have a clear advantage, but we are at pure overkill setting, overshooting even landraider by almost double, BUT quite usefull against lords of war vehicule and can help when you begin the take causaulties by maintaining the ability to kill such targets even with disminished squad.

 

once again, not counting the direct ouput of the characters In here, only their aura.

 

now, for the overall comparaison, we can add that centurion will be more vulnerable to high str and high dmg attack such as lascanon or thunder hammers since that could kill models more quickly but they are a LOT more resilient against small arms. VV, will be more vulnerable to small arms,  but will be less affected by hig str and multiple dmg weapons since only 1 can die to each wound of these weapons. You can always give some of them storm shields, but that make the VV even more expensive but still as vulnerable against small arms.

 

also, the VV can move 6’’ where the assault cent can only do 4’’, which can change a situation a lot, BUT the centurions also bolster a quite impressive shooting capability which can be very usefull, especially with split fire that everybody has now and the fact that they ignore cover with their omniscope. Plus, they can be quite deadly to assault since their overwatch can be quite deadly, even if you are not in flamer range, those hurricane bolters will pump a lot of shots.

 

I seriously think they are one of the best thing to put inside a raven, especialy if you give them an apothecary to support them and use te rest of your army to remove the big guns of the enemy (or if you present them with enough tough targets o confuse their targeting priority), those guys will be deadly and they are much more versatile than the VV with hammer.

 

You only armed my unit with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields while I did state my choice was 5 TH/SS & Paired lightning claws for the reason of dealing with lighter targets.

 

However I do see your point but unfortunately it does take very little to knock centurions + they have little in the way of defense once anything heavier than bolt fire comes there way. The toughness is nice but is far to easy to punch over with a few high D weapons with are common among armies even in smaller points costs. The reason for the VV having the Storm Shields is actually to be a buffer and eat high strength weapons to allow a counter swing from another elite unit to be less effective. Can't exactly make light gun fire ineffective (as it normally comes in buy 1 get 5 free sort of sale package).

 

Won't argue, the salamander addition is pretty nasty but begins to fall apart past the first assault. Not hard to stay away from 4" movement and not hard to whittle down when your range is 24" at best with boltguns. On top of that your unit is far more likely to begin to lose effectiveness past the first charge not only because of of movement issues but a single loss is a 1/3 of your unit and a 1/3 of your power. This means the unit begins to breakdown almost immediately once it loses a guy. Using the VV I present, one could take iron hands CT meaning you can increase your durability further by making it harder to kill these guys (stats indicate that 1 wound negated with a high chance for a second, not counting apoth revives).

 

A further issue is your damage is combo based, if you get to dump your entire arsenal then yes, you will murder squads with it easily but if you get stuck in melee for one turn too long or just get counter charged then you are up the creek. Your centurions only have 7 attacks total per combat and since you put most of your power into range (6 flamers and 3 hurricane bolters are your primary source of DPS) which means they start faltering as now they can only kill 7 infantry a turn (thus becoming tarpitted by yourself effectively as you can't cut through the horde fast enough. That assumes they hit all 7 times and wound all 7 times) or a counter charge from another elite unit.

 

Comparing to the VV squad, while not as explosive their DPS is constant and are a terrifying thing to charge by any unit that can't assure an OTK on them (and with Storm Shields + Iron Hands CT that is a VERY hard idea to assure). The only answer is Small Arms fire en mass which might be difficult depending on enemy deployment. Even if I don't murder an entire ork boys squad in one turn, I can be sure I mangled them hard and even in following turns I can take more out quite easily, in fact my DPS never drops unless I take losses. I have my attacks every turn unless they die which isn't the same for the centurion squad who most undoubtably blew up something hard with the force of an atomic bomb but need their full combo to do so and thus past their first charge I never expect them to get it again (the Stormraven at this point of the game I would wager is ether done for or too far away to be of any use at that point).

 

Now naturally both squads drop into a key point of the enemy army but the question is: can the centurions follow-up. yes, turn 2 is going to be a murder pit of glorious slaughter for them but past that, not much else. Unlike the VV, the opponents options are quite large: Charge with chaff units, shoot to bits, charge with their own melee specialists who will tear them up due to no invulnerable save (a key weakness of the unit) or simple leave well enough alone by focusing on taking down the stormraven to fully ground them and remove the now only real threat on the board now as the assaults only have an effective range of 12" to do their damage.

 

Now I do yield some things: First off the kiting game does apply to the VV as well, just not as much (an average range of their threat is 13", 6 + 7 average and you are losing 2" on the VV every turn. The centurions is 11" which means it's doubly encouraged to stay out of 12") as well as I do lack reach in the form of range. However, two factors arise: what sort of dreadnought would you back your Centurions with and as a note you do get advantage in character choice, you get an extra one over me (if you can afford it). Also we mustn't discount the stormraven from the supporting factor of the army: what I lack in range I make up for with my stormraven, similar to you. The question is who benefits more? (as you siphon melee power for range power/combo damage power).

 

So lets humour a simple thing: lets compare a list against each other for the sake of argument. The idea of a strike team group is to be all in one sky bus meaning we take turn 1 in 1000pt games (and in larger games we maybe mix it up with 2 lots of it. Maybe different kinds of strike teams but for argument, 1000pts on whichever FOC you want). 

 

Here is what I would put forward as my list using the Vanguard FOC (1 HQ, 3 Elites mandatory):

 

Chaplain 72pts

- Combi-Melta 19pts

Total: 91pts

 

Apothecary 55pts

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad (10 man) 160pts

- 5 Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers 105pts

- 5 Paired Lightning Claws 60pts

Total: 325pts

 

Ironclad Dreadnought 80pts

- Hurricane Boltgun 4pts

- Dreadnought Chainfist 46pts (side note: what kind of person are you? Take the neg on the hammer for +1 damage or not?)

- Meltagun 17pts

- Ironclad Assault Launcher 5pts

-2 Hunter Killer Missiles 12pts

Total: 164pts

 

Stormraven Gunship (the Sky Bus) 172pts

- Twin-linked Multi-Melta 54pts

- Twin-linked Lascannon 50pts

- 2 Stormstrike Missile Launchers 42pts

- 2 Hurricane Boltguns 8pts

Total: 326pts

 

Believe that is 961 points. So not exactly squeezing out all the points but close enough for what I intended. Kind of curious to see what you would run as this would focus the strike team towards going into melee while having back-up so just wondering what would back-up the centurions (as they wouldn't be alone nor I would think just Vulkan The'Man He'Stan). Just for humours sake since this is question of VV vs. Centurion (assault). Certainly would be interesting to make some lists for Imperial fists with Sternguard or maybe try and be fruity with plasma party company fast ball special.

[uldrick]

i see your points, all very valid, but, i made this exercise because i wanted such a unit in a 2000 pts army with supporting element (especially fast assaulting bike and deep striking terminators to add multiple pressur points and forcing uneasy decision)

but, i will try and post what i think could fonction as stand alone 1000 pts stormraven bus ride as i find the idea extremely entertaining and fluffy.

so here is what i propose:

-vulkan (154pts)

-lieutenant with jump pack, teeth of terra and master crafted boltgun ( this guys has the range the rest of the unit doesnt and he's quite competant at hitting stuff with his hammer) (78 pts)

-3xassault centurions ( flamers and HB) (241 pts)

-apothecary (55pts)

-ironclad dread, DCCW, chainfist, meltagun and heavy flammer, 1 HK (171pts) --- i do not lie the hammer, i prefer a reliable hit to a slightly harder hit, but i do prefer to take both CC weapons to get the re-rolls to 1's to hit, that allows me to spread further from the captain and the HB part is handled quite well by the centurions

-stormraven, TWAC, TWMM, SSML, 2x HB. (311 pts) ---- i prefer the TWAC since i have already a good deal of anti-tank firepower spread between my guys, but it does lack range.

i do realise that this list have less staying power VS powerfull weapons, but i believe that with all the alpha strike power squeezed inot that stormraven, anything threathning ( in a non optimized list specificaly designed to counter this) will be dealt with (or tied in melee) before they can fire back. assaulting centurions armed with 4 flamers and 36 bolters shots (not mention meltaguns) is dangerous at the very least.

while centurions lack in number of melee attacks,  they gain in accuracy with 77% hit rate (with captain re-roll) (vs 60% for VV)  and easier wounding time (still wounding on 2+ against T5) and by completly erasing 3+ or worse saves with their AP-4 weapons (which hammer doesnt since it's only AP-3).

add to that the fact that the apothecary can automaticly heal one of them each turn instead od having 50% chance of raising one back form the grave and i still believe that the centurions might outclass the VV, espescialy agaisnt more elite ennemy ( fewer in number, which allows to more easily apply their great killing power without too much overkill).

and dont forget the goodness of free split fire in this edition. with them, you could (if the dice gods ar in your favor), blow up a light to medium tank with the meltaguns, erase a squad of light to medium infantry with HB, torch an other one with the flamers an then charge a 4th one.

that specific scenario might allows you to deal the following (counting all re-rolls and bonus form captain, LT, salamander tactic)

get out of transport and move within 6'' of  a tank. 

-fire the meltaguns at the tank (T7 3+) and deal approx 5.3  dmg (not sure how to deal with choose better of 2...i fudged that number a bit)
-fire the flamers at a nearby (let's say marines) squad for 3.5 dmg
-fire the HB bolters at another (marines again) squad within 12'' for 5.8 dmg
-charge a squad of terminator with AC (and loose 0.25w to overwatch) for approx 8 dead terminator

with vulkan, the LT, the dread and the SR all doing their things in conjonction of the centurions, i feel that they will not only damage what they charge, but they can damage a lot more units around them, weakening them and then tying one of them in melee. 

with the (admitedly ideal) set-up above, the centurions (worth 241 pts) have destroyed 221 pts of terminators (let's ssay a squad of 5 was wiped), they destroyed a 5 man squad of marines (about 105 pts, depending on loadouts), they half killed a razorback of around a 100pt (and droped him inspeed and BS) and seriously damaged a squad of marines. they dealt for about 420 pts of damage in a single round, BEFORE the ennemy had the chance to spread. with the vanguards, you can attac only 1 of those targets, overkilling it and then you sit right in the open while the 3 units the centurons would have weakened will be firing back into your VV with full strenght.

and if someone try to assault you after you wiped the terminator (let's say an other buch of termies) then they have to face 36 bolter shots , 2 meltaguns and (possibly) 4d6 auto hit flamer strike which would average (with vulkan and LT around) between 2.1 wounds  (without flamers) and  3.85w (with flamers) with overwatch, killing 1 or 2 termies. then the termies are expected to cause between  1.32w to 1.77w, not even killing a centurion. then the centurion would proceed to mash'em to paste (again). if you throw chaff units at them, just watch those flamers burn you up before you mae contact, the few stil living to touch those centurions will be drilled into there next life in the ensuing melee.

so, overall, the VV might be more resilient to ig guns, but they have nowhere the same killing power than the centurions simply as they lack the multiple weapons tht the centurions bear, allowing them to engage and seriously damage multiple targets at the same time, thus limiting the ennemy returning fire. the VV would be very exposed to this kind of return fiire and since they are only (all thing relatives...) 3+ save, they will suffer a lot more.

to all that, add vulkan tht boost amost all the weapons of the group and the fact that he his 2+, 3++ with a good melee weapon and armed with a heavy flamer gautlet and add the ironcald just doing the same multi-tageting and assaulting the centurions did, (or have the apoth and the LT serves as delaying eleent by charging dangeourous unit and stalling them  for a turn) and you have a very, very, very dangeourous team to deal with.

unless there is something i can't see here, i would bet on my assault centurions over the VV almost everytime ASSUMING i get to eliver them where i want. if the bird crashes, then....i'd rather have the VV for their extra mobility and storm shields.

****it's realy late in here, i'll post as his and edit any incoherence in my post tomorow*****
 

[chapter master 454]

I see, you meant that strike team for 2000pts not 1000pts which means we were both building for something different however both can function well in 2000pt games (both are a terrifying selection of units to deal with) however there are two points to this that kind of become one: 2000pts make it very likely the strike team tactic will fail due to increased firepower. The main crux of this is that at 1000pts the opponent is unlikely to have the output to down a stormraven turn 1 (and even they do, hiding it if able is always an option) even if they seize and on top of that if we go first it is unlikely they can down it even in point blank range unless they somehow have a pocket melta squad ready or a battery of lascannons. To this end, we both assume the bird will get to the target but in 2000pts is very likely they opponent can down the bird easy as now instead of being the army, it is half the army ready to be made less effective and the amount of big stuff killing weaponry increases proportionally.

 

That being said, it is still likely the sky bus will get across the board without issue as the -1 to hit is what makes them so good (marines only getting a 50% hit rate against a unit shows why IG spam guns XD). However I comment you seem to be discounting my VV thunder hammer hit rate a little, getting a 66% hit rate on the thunder hammers (only half the squad and the sarge isn't one of them). The lightning claws however are getting 14.2 hits a turn which is far above normal hit rate (bear in mind that the chaplain re-rolls any fail to hits however I accounted for rolling 3s for the thunder hammers so they do take a slight hit).

 

I think another thing we are not factoring in for these units is AP. It is true you are laying out a scary salvo but it does get hindered by good armour where as all my attacks are backed by AP (the chaplain if he gets involved is the weakest at this at -1 but he does deal 2 damage a wound). Lightning claws have AP-2 which means even marines roll at 5+ against me (and lighter units suffer further) while terminators roll 4+. As mentioned, making a units success rate 50% hurt a lot so making terminators who rely on it roll 4+ stings. Meanwhile my thunder hammers (which do outnumber your drill attacks by 3 attacks) slam home with -3 and dish out 3 damage a wound which murders a lot of things (not putting them against your guys but it kills centurions in one hit per failed save and drops a dreadnought in 3 successful connections (that being a hit and wound going through)).

 

Now we can't argue which would win, both are meant for alpha strike so it is assure that if I charge you, I am confident I would destroy your centurions and vice versa. I would expect some losses but even through that, I still have enough steam to put them down. Only real consideration I would have to have is do I take the risk and charge from <8" or not (to be honest, I really want to put a librarian on the VV for veil of time but not enough space). Naturally it is a difficult call however I suppose that is negated from having my dread lead the charge then charge with VV followed by selecting VV to fight first (which stops you from counter charging with stratagem. 

 

Certainly hard to say, however I would comment the centurions feel more designed for light infantry clearing than elite clearing (as you mathed out, their volume of wounds is huge which is better suited to light infantry clearing than elite duty). They could clear elites with those wounds but it seems overkill, as the other big issue would be if they killed the target unit before the charge which is part of what would help their movement issue (getting to move more than 4" then get a 3" consolidation after clearing stragglers). I suppose it would be a case at this point of table testing really. The centurions are near enough bulky against light fire but once heavier stuff comes in they start to crumble (even one lascannon could be enough to ruin your day). The reason for my apothecary is purely on the basis to revive a marine, possibly 2 in a game which would of been the storm shields as they died from eating a lascannon to the face.

 

Also in regards to the stormraven, the reason it is kitted out as it is is because the vanguards don't want to charge the target's tin can so it gets gear to crack those wide open.

 

To be honest the inspiration for this was a space wolve storm fang with 6 wulfen, a wolf lord and arjak. That is not funny and that is a unit I would take your centurions for over my VV (because  death frenzy). Those guys with great weapons are just stupidly powerful and mobile to the point of idiocy. Coupled with the fact their stormfang gets 2 twin-multi-meltas, twin helfrost and 2 lascannons make it a great anti-tank buster to get rid of big stuff then each wulfen has 3 attacks base + charge bonus (since hey, they already has death frenzy why not let them have more CC power).

The intention however was not to beat this team, merely to create our own version of it with vanilla marines. Might put another list of a theory for strike team that uses possibly sternguard with IF CT.

[uldrick]

as i can see, both loadout are totaly fonctional (and scary) and i guess that we both built something with our meta in minds.

where i play, i do not face pure "elite" army ( i am that guy usualy) so i tend to have squad geared toward medium to light infantry slaughter and you seem to face more elites army, pushing your design to counter those specificaly.

i am confident that both list would be quite effective and both have major strenght and major weakness depending on what your are facing.

and, i did neglect the chaplain, my bad, i didnt thought of it ( i don't usualy run them)

if you ever get in a match to use those tactics, could you report the results here, or to me? (i'll do the same) i am eager to know how well that strategy fare.

[uldrick]

as promised, i am here today to report the results of my team.

i played with the following list:

vulkan (154pts)

-lieutenant with jump pack, teeth of terra and master crafted boltgun (78 pts)

-3xassault centurions ( flamers and HB) (241 pts)

-apothecary (55pts)

-ironclad dread, chainfist, and heavy flammer and hurricane bolter, 1 HK (171pts)

-stormraven, TWAC, TWMM, SSML, 2x HB. (311 pts) 

total: 1000 pts

i played it against adeptus mechanicus list, in maelstrom of war ( the night mission, not sure of the name)


roughly, he had:

-1 dunecrawler with icarius array
-2 vangaurd squad
-1 techpriest dominus (warlord)
-2 kastellan robots with datasmit
-1 ranger squad (with transuranic sniper)
-1 sicarian infiltrator squad
-1 techpriest

he played lucius forgeworld, (making AP1 into AP0, whiche really hindered my heavy flamers and assualt cannon) and allowing him to put units in reserves to automaticly arrives at the end of his movement phases. he used that stratagem on his infiltrator.

turn 1

i had first turn, rushed to its lines ( he was seted-up in a semi-gunline), destroyed one of the kastellans robot with the Twin MM and the SSML of the raven and then killing some of the rangers with the HB. then, i braced the raven for return fire.

the raven took 10 wounds on it's first turn, thats icarius array is terryfing with the stratagem thats gives it +2 to hit for 1 CP. i admit i was a bit lucky as i saved a lot of those hits,the raven should (at least statisticaly) have been destroyed right there, but it endured. the adeptus players spread a bit to avoid whats was about to unload.

turn 2:
the raven did nothing, either missed it's shot or failed to wound. BUT, it unloaded its cargo, and oh boy, the things they did....

vulkan got out, activated the flamecraft stratagem to give more punch to those flamers and then fired at and charged the techpriest, which removed it from the board

the LT used it's superior move speed to shoot and charge the rangers with the transuranic arquebus, killed a few and tied them in melee

the ironclad shot at a vanguard squad, erasing them, then charged the techpriest dominus and stomped it to the ground

the centurions fired everything at the kastellans, damaging it, then charged and wiped it out of existance

the adeptus then used its dunacrawler to destroy the raven and grabed some objective withe the infiltrator and the everything else managed to put 1 wound on my ironclad

turn 3

i erased everything from the board except the infiltrator who are very far away, he concede.


that strike team is absolutly murderous, i'd try it agaisnt almost anything, the only way to defeat it is to keep some powerfull counter units in reserve to use against the centurions or the ironclad after they got on the ground. it's absolutly gorgeous!

 

[UnkyHamHam]

That's pretty awesome! We're you able to keep everything in Vulkan and the Lt's bubble of rerolls? Also doesn't adding the jump pack make the LT take up two transport slots? Which would mean your raven was carrying an extra guy.

[Cpt Rana]

Forgive me for being late to the party.

This a very interesting discussion but I must say that I'm on the centurion boat even though they are terrible slow. 

I only ever played 2000pt games in 8th so I can only theories about smaller armies.

 

Even-though VV will have lots of punch you might be forgetting a thing. A competent opponent will bubblewrap his tank, characters, monster etc with load and loads of conscripts, boyz or cultists. That means that if you don't have the firepower to kill them all in the shooting pahse (you only have 2x hurricane bolters) you will have to charge a cheap meat shield before you get to swing at the juicy targets.

The cool thing about the centurions is that they will single-handely wipe out what-ever is blocking their way because of the sheer number of wounds they dish out.

 

What I do is using Raven guards stratagem "strike from the shadows" and deploy them 9'' away before the game starts. They then move 4'' closer the the target in the movement phase. The sky bus flies next to them (within 12''), Shrike and a Lt lands next the the storm raven and the centurions and everything rerolls to hit and rerolls 1's to hit.

 

This tactic requires some finesse if going second but it means that fewer eggs is laying in one basket as only the dread is in the Raven. If the one Storm Raven with both dread and 10 VV or 3 cents is going down in your DZ you will have a huge problem getting them into the fight. 

 

The ability to shoot helps mitigate the slow movement of the cents. I once destroyed a Baneblade in the shooting phase which left a long run for my cents to the next tank. I instead advanced them and then shot with both flamers and hurricane bolters which help taking several wound of a Leman Russ.

 

Regarding the thing with high str shots going into the cents as they have multiple wound. Its just fewer shots going into the Raven which helps it to survive.

[Knoffles]

Is it purely a points restriction thing that prevents the VV using jump packs to support a different strike team in the raven. It seems a waste to put a unit with deep strike capabilities in a transport. Or does it also mean they can deploy closer than 9" away when exiting the vehicle?

Sorry if this is obvious but still new to 40k.

[uldrick]

That's pretty awesome! We're you able to keep everything in Vulkan and the Lt's bubble of rerolls? Also doesn't adding the jump pack make the LT take up two transport slots? Which would mean your raven was carrying an extra guy.

oh....dang...that means i cheated, the jump pack does indeed make him take 2 spaces in the raven bringing the total to 13, my bad, i will have to deepstrike it.

 

for the bubbles, i managed to keep everyone (except the LT as he was chasing other targets around the board with his superior speed) in Vulkan bubble. that combined with the Salamanders re-rolls made the re-rolls of the LT quite redundant, i did not miss a lot of hits / wounds during that match with the heavy hitting weapons.

 

 

 

Is it purely a points restriction thing that prevents the VV using jump packs to support a different strike team in the raven. It seems a waste to put a unit with deep strike capabilities in a transport. Or does it also mean they can deploy closer than 9" away when exiting the vehicle?

Sorry if this is obvious but still new to 40k.

 

while deepstriking, you have to be at 9'' of any ennemu units, while disembarking from a vehicule, you only have to follow the 1'' rule form ennemy, making it easier to land an assault

 

 

 

 

This tactic requires some finesse if going second but it means that fewer eggs is laying in one basket as only the dread is in the Raven. If the one Storm Raven with both dread and 10 VV or 3 cents is going down in your DZ you will have a huge problem getting them into the fight. 

 

 

that is the biggest weakness in this list, if the stormraven is killed while not in position, i am done. 

 

i also figured an easy counter to this list. if the opponent puts some heavy hitting units in reserve (like kastellans robots, other cents, tanks, etc) and deploy close to his table edge, he can force you to land your guys on the gound to kill less valuable targets and then uses his reserves to hit hard and seriously reduce your threat level.

 

or he can also deploy in 2 separate gunlines as far as possible to make it hard for you to reach both half of his army.

 

anyway, i liked that list, it is a ton of fun to play with

 

 

[tychobi]

Fully loaded raven at 2k is pure liability. Fully 2/3rds of quality opponents will casually swat your raven from the sky leaving your assault load floundering mid map at best. My most success for assault loads has been 5 choppy scouts and mephiston. Not a large enough load to worry opponents but enough to tickle. Still gets shot down early by savvy opponents. Too many eggs in 1 basket makes for low flexibility and easy counter strategy. Pretty scary if the tactic works but what is the back up plan?

[STTAB]

Fun discussion.

 

While thinking about making mono Grey Knights work post big FAQ, the best I could think of was 2-3 stormravens loaded with interceptors.

 

Interceptors can move 12" through other models and have a free shunt move for redeploy and only take 1 space in transport. If one of the ravens is killed turn 1, then the surviving interceptors can shunt up to join the party.

 

Turn 1, the ravens move up into the opponent's face. Turn 2, interceptors disembark 3" then move 12" through opponent's screens and can charge down charachters or shut down tanky things behind enemy lines.

 

Also, GK charachters can use gate of infinity to keep up with the storm ravens to provide re-roll buffs