To chop all the weapons of my Zerkers or not?

[stev]

So after having a very sub-optimal World Eaters army (zerkers and rhinos basically) I am quite excited about this new edition/codex. An effective close combat phase!! Skulls for the skull throne!!!

 

Also exciting is having weapon options for the berserkers. This is where I would like to ask some advice.

 

O have 30 or 40 dudes. Mostly sword/pistol or axe/pistol. 4 or 5 plasma pistol. Might be a few with dual close combat weapons.

 

I know the general concensus is sword + axe but is their a place for other loadouts?

 

I dont mind changing some weapons round and am def more of a narrative gamer but still. Its nice to win ☺

 

I'll probably end up running 3 squads (or proxying a few times to see how they do) and was thinking:

 

Squad 1: axe/sword

Squad 2: axe/pistol

Squad 3: sword/pistol

 

8 dudes per squad with 1 or 2 plasma pistols cuz they seem good now. Champs would have power weapon versions of whatever.

 

Are there situations where the pistol load out may be better suited than the dual cc weapons?

 

(In a slightly related note I gather from reading online the sword/axe combo gives 2 axe attacks + 1 extra sword attack? When I innitally read it in the index I just assumed 1 axe attack and 1 sword attack which generates the + 1 extra sword attack. I'm happy to be wrong, just wanted to clarify!)

[Gen.Steiner]

Sword/Axe combo is two chainaxe attacks and one extra chainsword attack.

 

Personally I feel that you should resist using the chainsword/chainaxe combination just because it's good; stick with how you've built them. :)

[Extropian]

Tbh, the actual damage output between Axe/Sword and Axe/pistol isnt THAT different, since you can still shoot pistols in melee.

it is worse since you lose a point of str on the pistol shot, and you can't use the "fight twice with it".

But in exchange you get to shoot before charging, or if you can't charge. It's not huge, but some shooting is still better than no shooting.

 

Personally i wouldn't bother changing them all.

[Commissar K.]

Go with how you visually like it! I made new ones with sword and axe, because I like the unique design :)

[stev]

Thanks guys, that reassures me. Still might need a few weapon swaps to make a full squad of each but thats fine.

 

Or is there any benifit in mixing it up within a squad?

[Gen.Steiner]

Variety is good, but only across an army; I think it's best to focus a squad's role - all the same sort of weapon, or at least weapons that synergise well together.

[Commissar K.]

Thanks guys, that reassures me. Still might need a few weapon swaps to make a full squad of each but thats fine.

 

Or is there any benifit in mixing it up within a squad?

Well the benifit of being able to do it all But in "competitive terms" not really.

 

The way I use the Berzerkers is to have an agressive melee part of the army but there is still very little reason to go full melee. Despite me loving the new additional attacks on top of everything for Berzerkers the Morale issue potential remains. Likewise getting them faster in there is also only available with transports and those ideally come from Forge World because Flying stuff and drop pods just matters a lot more as all of the above. 

 

My 2 new units (which will eventually have a 3rd) are simply 8-10 guys with Chainaxe, Chainsword and Champion with Power Fist. To me only the Champion with Power Fist is really mandatory because you get a great heap of power out of the guy for the cost, especially now the Powerfist has become a little bit cheaper also. 

 

 

[Megadoomer]

accidental double post

[Megadoomer]

In my opinion it's well worth giving every Berserker in the unit the Chainaxe/Chainsword Combo. Its so much more useful than the Bolt Pistols. On  paper, the pistols seems like a fine trade off, getting to shoot before charging and getting to shoot them while in melee but in my experience this rarely works out.

 

First off, shooting the pistols before charging gives your opponent the opportunity to remove the closest models, making you have to roll higher for a sucessful charge. Not worth it. 2nd, with Berserkers, the unit you charged most likely won’t be there in your next shooting phase to fire pistols. The Berserkers will have either shredded them completely or the unit would have fallen back. Very few units in the game will survive/want to stay in combat against a Khorne Berserker charge.

 

The Axe/Sword combo gives you two Str 6, AP-1 attacks, plus a free Str 5 attack per Berserker. Twice. If you’re running World Eaters that’s three Axe attacks on the charge plus one Sword attack. To me, that’s a lot scarier than an extra Str 4 pistol shot you’ll rarely want to/get to fire.

[Commissar K.]

Certainly true from a more competitive standpoint. In addition we have the options now to make more attacks on the charge and option to Fight again and option to re-roll wounds in the Fight phase so all in all I do think that the best kit out for Khorne Berzerkers in particular is the Chainaxe and Chainsword combo.

There is one "however" in the sence that not all players 1. play competitively, 2. play the game at 1K-2K or 3. use WYSIWYG in all games. To me these 3 things are enough to consider not doing it for the sake of it not mattering for you locally.

If you do play competitive, at 1K-2K and use WYSIWYG then I would go for the combo.

[Gen.Steiner]

What Commissar K said. That is exactly my stance on the issue.

[stev]

For Champs the concensus online seems to be power fists? Any merit in the other power weapons (which I have modelled) or twin lightning claws (which look awesome and I'll probably give my 3rd champ)?

[Commissar K.]

For Champs the concensus online seems to be power fists? Any merit in the other power weapons (which I have modelled) or twin lightning claws (which look awesome and I'll probably give my 3rd champ)?

I think any Power Weapon will make you happy. The prime advantage of Strenght 10 however is that you will find a lot of "marine opponents" with Toughness 4 which you can wound on a 2+ on and the other prime advantage is that most Vechicles do not have Toughness 10 so you'll also always will wound those on 3's. 

 

Most of the other Power Weapons excell at killing Infantry, Bikers and the like but that's something any regular Berzerker can also do. Plus all those regular Berzerkers will have to go down before you lose your S10 6+ attacks and that really matters in my opinion. It's 4's to hit but that's still 3 hits on average which a very likely all succesful wounds.

[McGibs]

My old berserker squad has pistols/axes, and the new 10 I just made have swords/axes, and I've used them together in a few games now.

Swords are "better", but at least in my meta, they're not a huge difference. Berserkers mulch pretty much anything just fine wither they get the extra sword attacks or not.

Some of my thoughts:

-Swords/axes are more of a pain in the ass to roll for. 18 axe dice, 10 sword dice, and then 3 champion dice, and then do that twice. It can get annoying to keep track of.

-The way to use pistols is to shoot them at another nearby unit you arent charging. They can be good for whittling down the squads that will shoot at you after your target falls back or dies.

-Don't forget about grenades!

[Azekai]

By the way, I agree with Gen.Steiner et al, in that I would not jump the gun on this; keeping the pistols should be fine.

However, if you are going to alter your 'zerkers, I would not actually chop their weapons off, or even remove the hands at the wrist. I would pop off the whole arm at the shoulder, and replace it with a chainsword-equipped arm. That will be way sturdier and likely look better too.

[Sception]

unfortunately, i think axe/sword really is enough better on berzerkers - both for the increased strength on the sword vs the pistol and for getting to swing it twice - that you really should strongly consider swapping out your generic equipment for it.

 

Plasma pistols can probably stay - either with an axe or a sword in the other hand.  They have enough extra utility to them to be worth the loss of attacks, imo.  killing yourself out of charge range can be an issue, but remember that you can shoot one unit and charge another in 8th, and those plasma pistols are probably better spent targeting nearby vehicles or the like before you charge in against infantry, so that should be fine.

 

For champion I'd go fist at the new lower points value, plus either plasma pistol, chain sword, or combi plasma, assuming the faq allows is.  Or combi melta or flamer for renegade 'zerkers.  Again, assuming the faq allows us to take a melee weapon and a combi weapon on our unit champs, which remains unclear.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

For champion I'd go fist at the new lower points value, plus either plasma pistol, chain sword, or combi plasma, assuming the faq allows is.  Or combi melta or flamer for renegade 'zerkers.  Again, assuming the faq allows us to take a melee weapon and a combi weapon on our unit champs, which remains unclear.

Latest Codex is quite clear in my opinion. You get up to two options from list A for Champions (which are the non-Combi weapons) or one option from list B (which are the Combi weapons). So you could go Plasma Pistol and Power Fist if you wanted or Combi X. However Combi weapons are still just 1.

 

Im also eager to test the Exalted Champion with World Eaters, those re-rolls to wound can really make a large difference I feel. The real question remains if I really want to keep the points open for that and the likely awnser is no. :(

[Sception]

That interpretation would disallow the bolter/bolt pistol equipment set which is the standard default equipment set for units like CSMs and Chosen.  I agree that the most natural reading of the wording is as you describe it, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that that's what the rules intend, and would personally give 50/50 odds on the first faq changing it.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Looking at things, I would run a few squads of 8 in a Rhino alongside an Apostle and Aspiring Champion.

 

Kit layout would be:

Champ with Fist and Plasma Pistol

Icon with Chain Axe

2 with Chain Axe and Plasma Pistol

4 with pair of Chainswords

 

Re-Rolling 1's to Hit and Wound. Reckon they could go toe-to-toe with most elite infantry, save maybe a blob of Genestealers backed by a Broodlord.

[Amon777]

Unless your group is a bunch of tools who demand WSYWIG just say your berserker squads have chainaxe/chainsword. Given my near 15 years of playing 40k GW invalidates builds all the darn time. BP and a weapon will always be kosher because that's what comes in the box. I have a feeling chainaxe/chainsword is a gimmick that will change later on so really not worth ripping your models apart when you can still use them the way you want. Just my $.02

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Yeah, I'll agree with Anon. Then again, Berserkers aren't likely to get rules until an eventual World Eaters codex, and I doubt we'll be seeing that until they finally get around to Angron. With the new rules will surely come new models, and you won't want the old ones anyway, so illegal gear options will be an excuse to upgrade.

[the jeske]

Do not remodel your army until you get a new codex. As Amon said, just say that all your dudes are armed with chains and swords. WE are not high enough on the power curve for people to mind too much[well aside for the natural disliked people feel for each other of course].

[Sonminiser]

How do you guys get the bits to do Chain Axe & Sword? The box comes with only 6 of each. D

[Gederas]

How do you guys get the bits to do Chain Axe & Sword? The box comes with only 6 of each. D

 

The Chaos Marine kit comes with 10 chainswords. There's also the Forge World Chainaxes set which comes with 10 axes, iirc.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Looking at things, I would run a few squads of 8 in a Rhino alongside an Apostle and Aspiring Champion.

 

Kit layout would be:

Champ with Fist and Plasma Pistol

Icon with Chain Axe

2 with Chain Axe and Plasma Pistol

4 with pair of Chainswords

 

Re-Rolling 1's to Hit and Wound. Reckon they could go toe-to-toe with most elite infantry, save maybe a blob of Genestealers backed by a Broodlord.

Apostle + Exalted champ is reroll ALL failed hits and wounds.  The exalted champ is the better value if you want to use your zerkers to bash larger stuff but since they are both dirt cheap, always run both.

 

How do you guys get the bits to do Chain Axe & Sword? The box comes with only 6 of each. D

 

The Chaos Marine kit comes with 10 chainswords. There's also the Forge World Chainaxes set which comes with 10 axes, iirc.

 

Shapeways has some nice chainaxe bits now also.