The Troops question

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Now that we have the details on the new codex, I've started looking at actually building lists (mostly looking at 1500pts.) It has struck me that we have fundamental issues with our troops. To put it simply, non-cult legions appear to be screwed. We have some reasonably efficient melee troop choices, but melee in general seems to be lack luster. And it's clear that most of our best unit choices are our elites and heavies (specifically terminators, helbrutes, predators, and perhaps defilers with the points change.) Our psychic buffs are solid, but that means running a bunch of sorcerers, which have their own pros and cons. It's tempting to run a no troops list, but then you lose ObSec.

 

Here's the breakdown as far as I can tell:

 

1) Vanilla CSM aren't what they used to be. They've lost their bolter+pistol+sword combo, and bolters have generally gotten weaker due to the change in AP rules (old ap5 had them solid vs hordes, now they are not.) They are cheaper, but that does not mean they are efficient.

 

Ranged CSM seem pretty weak. 10 marines, 2x plasma, combi-plas, and powerfist will inflict some pain. But the rest of the squad is basically ablative wounds. 7 bolters is practically a rounding error as far as damage is concerned, and you're paying 91 points for them (20 cultists costs 80.) So it's not a bad unit, but I'm not sure it's worth its points, especially compared to cult units. 5 man Combi-plas+plasmagun squads are more viable. You lose out on a special weapon, but also save on 5 of those ablative wounds. But this squad has nothing on rubrics or noise marines of the same size. And again, it just doesn't seem that strong.

 

Melee builds seem more promising. 142pts for 10 guys with ccw+pistol and a powerfist champ is pretty solid. Especially as Renegades with charge after advance. But again it pales against berserkers or even melee noise marines, and doesn't hold up that well against real assault troops (like sluggas.) Taking some special weapons is probably worth it, but loses you attacks. But the biggest problem is the questionable role of footslogger melee units. Are there lists that can make use of footslogger melee at all?

 

Overall, using CSM seems like a big step down in power vs elites, fasts, and heavy. Is that step down worth it for ObSec? Do we have better options?

 

2) Cultists seem really, really good for what they do. But is what they do that useful? They're certainly a nice deepstrike shield, have an interesting stratagem, and are really cheap! But unless you are Iron Warriors, we really don't have enough fearless to hold them together in any significant amount.

 

Melee cultists are dirt cheap and are a great candidate to stack up auras and psychic buffs on. There may even be some decent list designs based around a cultist horde with aura and psychic buffs. They'll certainly have value as a deepstrike shield, but they run into the same problem as Melee csm. Except maybe in specialized lists, the role of footslogging melee is questionable at best. And then there's the morale issues. IW, Black Legion, and Word Bearers may be able to hold them together. But then we're talking about having either an IW warlord or a dark apostle near them to really pull that off.

 

Ranged cultists are basically irrelevant as far as dealing damage is concerned. The only reason to take this is if the squad's only purpose is to hide in your backline to block deep strikes and hold objectives. Which may not be a bad idea. You can grab 3 10 man cultist squads for 120 pts and easily fill up a Battalion detachment. They are there for the CP and scoring. There are useful units you can get for about 120pts though (cheap helbrutes, 5 man possessed), but overall it seems like cultists will be worth it for the CP, deepstrike shield, and Objective Holding.

 

3) Daemons got a lot cheaper, and they are not bad. But again, they suffer the problem of being mostly melee. And they don't have good saves to get them into melee, or the dirt cheap price tag of cultists. Horrors are a ranged option with some advantages over ranged cultists. They've only got a 1/3rd chance of casting Smite, but it does full damage, unlike thousand sons aspiring sorcs. And they get to Deny the witch. And they've got a 4+ invul. But they cost twice as much as cultists, and still aren't particularly large damage dealers. They can at least lend some decent support fire while objective camping, but they still seem fairly weak.

 

4) Tzaangors and Poxwalkers both seem to have some nice points, but they aren't in the codex anymore and are aligned so I'm not really counting them.

 

5) No troops at all is an option, but you give up ObSec and probably some CP. Given the cheap cost of 3 small cultist squads I don't see a huge point in doing this, but 120pts could potentially make or break a nasty elite build, so it could come up.

 

Overall, my conclusion is that if you don't have cult units as troops, then the best option is MSU cultists. Am I missing anything with my analysis? I'd really like to use some regular CSM or something, but they just don't seem worth it.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Commissar K.]

Has Games Workshop made a statement that this Codex invalidates Index Chaos? As this is not mentioned or suggested in the Codex. 

I see some rumourmonging going on about the loss of Troops, which could be true but as before, the Codex does not state we cannot use World Eater army rules or Emperor's Children army rules as found in Index Chaos. The only reason as to why we cannot really use Death Guard army rules or Thousand Sons army rules with this Codex is because the Codex specifically mentions that <Legion> cannot be changed to Death Guard and Thousand Sons for the Unit Datasheets in this specific Codex. A choice they made likely because these will recieve their own Codex which furthermore will have units who cannot change their Legion to e.g. World Eaters.

So to awnser the questions:
1) CSM are indeed pretty okay but I intend to use World Eater army rules from Index Chaos.
2) Don't really care about Cultists. 
3) Daemons are great for a secondary army composition in my opinion, however they are a bit of a hassle to use with the Legion Traits as they force us to have an army be full Legion and thus Daemons can't be part of that.
4) They are indeed not in here. 
5) An option but as before I'll use the Index with this Codex, as is suggested in the book. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Panzer]

A note to the Daemons.

If you take them as troop choice for your detachment, you won't get to benefit from the Legion traits etc. They only share the "CHAOS" faction keyword. They aren't more of a troop choice than they were with the Index rules. GW only included them so you don't have to carry two books around if you want to summon basic Daemons. ;)

 

Same with Tzaangors and Poxwalkers. If you take them as troop choice your detachment won't be a pure <Legion> detachment anymore, so no Legion traits etc. for you.

 

 

To the Cultists....why not take the ranged version? They cost the same amount of points and most will die before reaching melee anyway and when they are in melee that brutal melee weapon won't do more than the few shots from the ranged version would've done either.

 

 

 

Also I still say that the Troop choice Datasheets for EC Noise Marines and WE Berzerker are still viable so if you don't mind having no Legion traits or if you are playing EC/WE they are a good Troop choice as well.

[Extropian]

 

 

I see some rumourmonging going on about the loss of Troops, which could be true but as before, the Codex does not state we cannot use World Eater army rules or Emperor's Children army rules as found in Index Chaos. 

 

He said "non-cult legions appear to be screwed."

So regardless of whether the WE/EC Troops rules apply, its not relevant here....it's about just CSm and Cultists, which is the troops option all the other Legions have.

 

 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I have been assuming that Noise Marines and berserkers are Troops for their legions. I'm trying to figure out what to use if I'm not playing EC or WE. Good points on the Daemons breaking Legion traits.

[Extropian]

Sadly i think i agree that normal CSM's aren't great right now. 

 

Footslogging melee CSMs MIGHT work under Renegades tactics. Not sure it's effective, but it helps them a bit at least.

I feel like they are supposed to work under Black legion, but that tactic is so mediocre it doesn't make shooty ones much better.

Maybe iron Warriors?

 

But overall...yeah, i agree. It seems like Cultists to bulk out Troops slots and hold backfield objectives are the "efficient" choice.

[OnboardG1]

Two five man CSM squads in a single Rhino might not be bad for capturing objectives up the table. Arguably best for Night Lords because you can run them onto an objective late in the game and then use "in midnight clad" to reduce the incoming damage.

[Panzer]

If I had to take regular Chaos Marines, I'd probably go with 2x5 with Meltaguns and Combi-Melta on the Champions. Put both in a Rhino and intercept nasty Monster/Vehicle that are on their way to your frontlines.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

I see some rumourmonging going on about the loss of Troops, which could be true but as before, the Codex does not state we cannot use World Eater army rules or Emperor's Children army rules as found in Index Chaos. 

 

He said "non-cult legions appear to be screwed."

So regardless of whether the WE/EC Troops rules apply, its not relevant here....it's about just CSm and Cultists, which is the troops option all the other Legions have.

 

Ah okay, yeah if that was what he mend I think that the prime advantage still gained for non-cult "Legions" is that they have an extremely potent Legion Trait. Dark Raiders with advancing and charging every turn is something other "Legions" would envy (World Eaters and Emperor's Children come to mind).

 

Typically though I think that the Renegades and other Legions get their advantages out of having really cheap Troop choices, this indeed means that they arn't fantastic but that's the con to being cheap...

[Bat33.1]

I presume you can't pick and mix from the index and codex so will have to choose one or the other?

 

How is that going to work for tournaments are organisers going to insist on using the codex rules as that is the latest, greatest or will they allow a choice, thoughts?

[Commissar K.]

I presume you can't pick and mix from the index and codex so will have to choose one or the other??

What do you mean?

[Lord Asvaldir]

He's saying that you can't for example pick the rule in the index that says world eaters get bezerkers as troops, then choose to use all the rules in the codex for world eaters like their trait and artifacts. He might be right about that assumption.

 

As far as normal csm go sure they are not amazing but they weren't last edition either. I've always just viewed them as a sub par havocs squad where you can take less special weapons, which isn't great but isn't terrible.

[Commissar K.]

He's saying that you can't for example pick the rule in the index that says world eaters get bezerkers as troops, then choose to use all the rules in the codex for world eaters like their trait and artifacts. He might be right about that assumption.

 

As far as normal csm go sure they are not amazing but they weren't last edition either. I've always just viewed them as a sub par havocs squad where you can take less special weapons, which isn't great but isn't terrible.

I wouldn't know why you wouldn't be able to do that. As the Index covers some Army rules that are technically not covered in this book whatsoever. As before, I believe this Codex is more of an update than anything else. As some parts have been updated and others have not. The Chaos Space Marine codex does not cover all the Chaos Space Marine models from that line either (example given, Thousand Sons and Death Guard armies) who as far as I know also, have not been invalidated as army choices despite this Codex existing. 

Which is why I asked, where does the suggestion come from that this Codex replaces the Index?

 

Otherwise I agree on you with the CSM, cheap Troops usually arn't fantastic, which has been the case for ages. 

[Galron]

They kind of have to since there are things in the chaos index that aren't in the codex presumably. Only one that comes to mind off the top of my head from C:SM is The Imperial Marine who is viable even though he isn't in the main codex.

 

Basic Marines are the core of all of my Traitor Legion armies, this codex isn't going to change that. I cant imagine a scenario I don't bring 3 squads of at least minimum numbers for objective grabbing. Larger squads provide a good firebase. Given a heavy weapon they are relatively cheap sources of longer ranged fire without making them so dangerous they are a high priority like a Havoc squad or dakka dread.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you're basing your entire thought-experiment on "what makes good Troops" on damage-dealt-per-points-spent, you are making a huge mistake.  There's more to the game than just killing.  Numbers.  Positioning.  Objective holding.  Terrain denial.  Area denial.  I have to duck out to go to work so I can get a little more in-depth later.

[Bat33.1]

 

He's saying that you can't for example pick the rule in the index that says world eaters get bezerkers as troops, then choose to use all the rules in the codex for world eaters like their trait and artifacts. He might be right about that assumption.

 

As far as normal csm go sure they are not amazing but they weren't last edition either. I've always just viewed them as a sub par havocs squad where you can take less special weapons, which isn't great but isn't terrible.

I wouldn't know why you wouldn't be able to do that. As the Index covers some Army rules that are technically not covered in this book whatsoever. As before, I believe this Codex is more of an update than anything else. As some parts have been updated and others have not. The Chaos Space Marine codex does not cover all the Chaos Space Marine models from that line either (example given, Thousand Sons and Death Guard armies) who as far as I know also, have not been invalidated as army choices despite this Codex existing. 

Which is why I asked, where does the suggestion come from that this Codex replaces the Index?

 

Otherwise I agree on you with the CSM, cheap Troops usually arn't fantastic, which has been the case for ages. 

 

 

Jes Bickham wrote Codex: CSM and was quite specific on WHTV last night in saying you use the codex with it's detachment rules, relics, etc or you go back and use the Index Chaos if you want berezerkers as troops that was brought up as a question in the chat. He explained at that point that you can't have berzerkers as troops for WE in the codex saying not all WE are berezerkers (and not all berzerkers are WE) which I thought they were by 40k but that's not the subject here.

 

My post was about which takes precedent, Index or Codex? I think it would be fine to use points from the codex but nothing else when using the index datasheets. You can't for example decide to ignore the restriction placing berzerkers in the elite slot and benefiting from WE legion rules and using relics from the CSM codex. At least that is my take on what was said.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah that's what it sounds like which is unfortunate for WE/EC players since it makes a lot of sense to make their cult units troop choices. You can always go back to the index rules but then you miss out on the relics, strategems and legion tactics.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

He's saying that you can't for example pick the rule in the index that says world eaters get bezerkers as troops, then choose to use all the rules in the codex for world eaters like their trait and artifacts. He might be right about that assumption.

 

As far as normal csm go sure they are not amazing but they weren't last edition either. I've always just viewed them as a sub par havocs squad where you can take less special weapons, which isn't great but isn't terrible.

I wouldn't know why you wouldn't be able to do that. As the Index covers some Army rules that are technically not covered in this book whatsoever. As before, I believe this Codex is more of an update than anything else. As some parts have been updated and others have not. The Chaos Space Marine codex does not cover all the Chaos Space Marine models from that line either (example given, Thousand Sons and Death Guard armies) who as far as I know also, have not been invalidated as army choices despite this Codex existing. 

Which is why I asked, where does the suggestion come from that this Codex replaces the Index?

 

Otherwise I agree on you with the CSM, cheap Troops usually arn't fantastic, which has been the case for ages. 

 

 

Jes Bickham wrote Codex: CSM and was quite specific on WHTV last night in saying you use the codex with it's detachment rules, relics, etc or you go back and use the Index Chaos if you want berezerkers as troops that was brought up as a question in the chat. He explained at that point that you can't have berzerkers as troops for WE in the codex saying not all WE are berezerkers (and not all berzerkers are WE) which I thought they were by 40k but that's not the subject here.

 

My post was about which takes precedent, Index or Codex? I think it would be fine to use points from the codex but nothing else when using the index datasheets. You can't for example decide to ignore the restriction placing berzerkers in the elite slot and benefiting from WE legion rules and using relics from the CSM codex. At least that is my take on what was said.

 

With respect to Jes, unless that is written down formally I can't thake it as a final awnser to this question. Simply because there is nothing in the Codex stating you have to use the one or the other. I know it's a rushjob but I hope GW will come back on this aswell. 

 

Your question is something I would like to know more about aswell. As we don't know. The Codex doesn't state it thakes precedent over the Index. There is no mentioning of the Index whatsoever even. 

 

The thing with the World Eater army rules however is that you do not ignore anything. All rules within the Codex allow you to have a mono World Eater army, all rules in the Index are also still not invalidated (with current Errata) because of the recent update.

 

So my question would still be, what is the source that says the Army rules as found in the Index currently do not excist anymore? As before, this would mean that WE, DG, TS, EC, Daemons, Knights and Fortress wouldn't be viable rules anymore. As these are all covered in the Index with their seperate Army rules.

 

To make it visual, the Heretic Astartes Datasheets and Troops from several Daemons have been largely updated, but the rest has not. So I don't see those pages being invalidated from the Index yet.

 

 

 

[Panzer]

Well so now we have the designers commentary that tells us we can use the Index Datasheets if they aren't in the Codex (which would include troop Berzerker and Noise Marines) and we have Jes who randomly on a stream said we can't.

Guess we'll have to wait for an official statement in an FAQ afterall.

[Guest uk_crow]

This whole idea of being able to use the rules from the index if they aren't in new codexes was a bad idea from the start, It leads to just this situation. They should of just said as soon as your codex is released the index is obsolete. People being people will always use any advantage they can to get an edge. I understand a small proportion of peoples model would be no longer useable (my own include) but it would solve a whole lot of crap like this.

 

Back on topic, I'm planning on getting 2 squads of CSM in rhinos but the idea of massed cultists is hugely appealing to shield my iron warriors gunline. I might just keep the marines as min sized objective grabbers/mobile reserve and have 40ish cultists as cannon fodder.

Edited August 11, 2017 by TheAngryNomad

[Commissar K.]

Very solid plan The Angry Nomad. I have to say that the Legion Traits for Iron Warriors arn't that strong but I do like their 2+ armour and heal option for Daemon Princes and such. 

For those who like Predators there is a really cool CP option there, if you do want to use 3 you can really get a nice snipe out of it I feel. Killshot feels really Iron Warrior-y to me.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Troops for me seems to be 3 units of 10 Cultists. Each squad with a Flamer, if points are spare.

[MoK]

I have a problem with Chaos troops being so crap. They are supposed to be 10k years old and yet they are worse than Imperial Marines. How? I would rather pay a bit extra and have Chosen as troops, but of cause that's gone for Black Legion now. And with the Troops rules for WE changing it means that I'm going to have to use Vanguard Detachment, which means less CPs. So not only do we have crap Troops, not only can we not take Cult troops or Chosen as Troops, but to be able to take a remotely decent army we have to be at a severe disadvantage and have less CPs. So basically GW have screwed over Chaos AGAIN. I had such great hopes with the Traitor Legions book

[Panzer]

I have a problem with Chaos troops being so crap. They are supposed to be 10k years old and yet they are worse than Imperial Marines. How? I would rather pay a bit extra and have Chosen as troops, but of cause that's gone for Black Legion now. And with the Troops rules for WE changing it means that I'm going to have to use Vanguard Detachment, which means less CPs. So not only do we have crap Troops, not only can we not take Cult troops or Chosen as Troops, but to be able to take a remotely decent army we have to be at a severe disadvantage and have less CPs. So basically GW have screwed over Chaos AGAIN. I had such great hopes with the Traitor Legions book

For you as well are Cultists an option tho.

Seriously, they are cheap, useful and far from being unfluffy in any Chaos army. You just have to take the right models to fit them your narrative.

[MoK]

Neh I'm pure Power Armour. I've always disliked the idea of having Cultists. I've always gone by the case that you have to fill with Marines first, then vehicles and Cultists lady of all if you have a few spare points. I never have spare points and do I've never taken Cultists.