The Troops question

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't like cultists always replacing standard chaos marines and feeling like they are our best troop choice is silly, but if you're filling up a battalion I don't feel like you need 3 squads of csm. One squad of cultists is acceptable, maybe even two sometimes just not for every single troop choice.

[MoK]

Yeah if I needed to fill the points/slots, I might go for a basic Cultist squad to throw at the enemy. Certainly in 7th I did see a cultist squad hold up a powerful unit or two in H2H for a turn or two.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I don't think cultists have much staying power anymore since unless you're iron warriors you can't make them fearless, but you can still make a big unit to dent deep striking space which is handy.

[MoK]

Not worth it then.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I disagree blocking deep strikers and protecting your most valuable units is quite important.

[MoK]

What do you mean by 'blocking deep strikers'? Edited August 11, 2017 by MoK

[Panzer]

What do you mean by 'blocking deep strikers'?

If you have a Cultist screen infront of your valuable units the enemy won't be able to deep strike as close to them as he would without that screen. Even better when you play Alpha Legion so you could infiltrate them into the middle of the board before the game begins.

 

I've made the experience that you really need a bunch of cheap units in any army in 8th. Going full elite rarely works out.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah sfPanzer has it right. Especially because deep striking in 8th is now restricted to 9" from enemy units insulating your important units is far easier, but on the other hand deep strike is also so powerful now because of no scatter or reserve rolls so it's quite essential to have cheap cultists as meat shields.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Here's the extrapolation I promised.

 

 

Troops are, and indeed have always been at least since I started playing in 3rd Edition, the poor relation of almost every faction's army in the damage-dealing department.  I made them work in my 3.5 Chaos 'dex, but that was due to Legion rules and the fact that they were second-wave forces that arrived after my Raptors and Terminators had softened up the enemy.  In the age of double-firing Havocs and first-turn charging Heldrakes, of super-heavies and mortal wounds, the OP is right.  In the lethality department, basic Chaos Marines and Culltists cannot compete.

 

The kicker is, they don't have to compete.

 

Troops in the Chaos armies, whether they're basic Marines or Cultists (I have no experience with Tzaangors and daemons I will get to later), have one overwhelming advantage that serves their most basic purpose quite well.  They are cheap and their purpose is literally to take up space on the battlefield.

 

 

1. Troops can hold objectives better than anyone.  Thanks to Despoilers of the Galaxy, our Troops can now hold objectives against the likes of vanguard formations from other armies.  Deep strikers and outflankers and infiltrators (oh my!) are a threat to backfield objectives.  Most such units are not Troops and thus, regardless of their numbers.  For those enemy Troops that do achieve penetration against mid-field and backfield objectives, who holds the objective defaults back to numbers.  Because our Troops are relatively cheap, that means we can ostensibly put more Troops onto an objective than the enemy can push into our lines and thus maintain our hold on said objectives.  Chaos Marines are better than Cultists in this vein, since in the close defense of an objective, their better armor save and better armaments not only allow them to survive enemy attacks better but also to repel those attackers.  Bolters and chainswords may not be the end-all, be-all of armaments, but in sufficient numbers they can deal enough damage to capitalize on the damage done by special and heavy weapons within the squad (which again, I'll get to).

 

2. Troops can perform area denial.  In modern military terms, "area denial" refers to any means to prevent an enemy from occupying a specific point of ground.  Due to the relatively cheapness of our Troops, they can perform this function quite ably.  Here, Cultists perform better than Chaos Marines.  You can deploy them to cover empty ground internally to your lines and along the forward edge of your deployment zone.  Here, they serve either to prevent enemy deep strike, infiltration, and outflanking, all of which requires an open zone free of the enemy within 9" to utilize.  Alternately, they serve as a buffer or "speed bump" to force such enemies to expend their alpha strike damage on what are cheap and ultimately expendable models rather than ripping the heart out of your army by directly attacking your heavy hitters.  In this role, lethality or lack thereof is of almost no importance; all that is required in that models exist and are properly placed to forfend your lines.  Ancillary to this is the fact that flyers -- the fastest, most maneuverable unit type in the game -- have fairly large bases.  Spreading Troop units out to occupy empty space within your internal lines effectively turns off part of that maneuverability by denying "landing zones" for the large flying bases.  While you're unlikely to keep units with lascannons and missile launchers out of range this way, you can potentially force a flyer off the table by dictating the direction in which they must fly, or in the case of the Baledrake in particular, you can actually keep them away from their preferred targets by preventing them from closing within range of what they want to kill.

 

3. Troops can provide incidental fires.  Lethality isn't their strong suit, we already covered that.  Havocs and Terminators and Predators are going to provide heavier and more effective fires than anything a Cultist squad or Chaos Marines can bring to the table.  But what these units do bring to the table is the reverse of the "all eggs, one basket" approach.  Heavy weapons and tanks are expensive in points, and the heavy hitting units tend to mass them in order to provide saturation.  This means that every Havoc who dies, and every wound taken on a tank, hurts you more than just losing a model.  Troops -- Chaos Marines in this instance -- provide back up heavy weapons.  A single missile launcher or heavy bolter or lascannon will, on its own, help you destroy the enemy but it won't provide a game-changing effect on its own.  However, check your Index: Chaos and you will see that Chaos Marine squads can take two heavy weapons at ten men or larger (and as of this writing there's been no indication that this has changed in the about-to-be-dropped codex).  Two heavy weapons of a type is a serious threat on its own, providing half the firepower of a minimum Havoc squad but with a greater durability due to numbers.  Since we have to take multiple Troop units to pull the biggest Command Point benefits, then multiple such squads provide incidental firepower to back up the massed guns that come from the Elites and Heavy Support branches.  Losing a lascannon Havoc squad to some bad dice rolling isn't such a harsh blow to your army's lethality if you can make up for it with your Troop Marines and their lascannons.  And while some might malign the humble bolter or autogun, remember that any weapon can potentially kill any model in the game now.  This is the age of bolters using numbers to squeeze that wound onto a Vindicator or lasgun volleys taking down a Daemon Prince.  If you don't believe, watch any decent player push Imperial Guard around the table.  Those bolter shots are not "rounding errors," they're the means to swamp your opponent's ability to roll armor saves which was the entire meta response to armor throughout 6th and 7th Edition.  Ignore twenty bolt rounds at your own risk.  I learned that lesson the hard way when stormbolters killed one of my Razorbacks.

 

4. Troops can be used to affect the enemy's actions on the battlefield.  This one is harder to explain.  Again falling back on my military experience, I want to point out what is referred to as the "OODA Loop."  OODA stands for "Observe, Oriente, Decide, Act," and the OODA Loop is the most basic delineation of human decision making that I've yet encountered.  Interrupting the enemy's OODA Loop is seen as extremely important.  People go into situations with a plan, and interrupting that plan -- ie, interrupting the Loop -- is how you ensure that their plan does not survive contact with the enemy (as the saying goes).  This matters because if you can take actions that your opponent is not expecting, you can force them to deviate from their plan in such a way that they cannot recover.  Humans often do not make the best decisions when under pressure, after all, and usually seek the best short-term solution to the immediate and unexpected rather than absorb the situation in the current time and plan around said obstacle for future gain.  How can our Troops do this?  Well, first of all, they can pop up in unexpected places.  The Tide of Traitors stratagem allows you to basically teleport a squad of Cultists to virtually any point along the board edge.  Whether they do damage once they're there is incidental.  Their sheer presence -- either because they magically appeared near an objective or because they're gearing up to charge a ranged firepower unit and thus turning off it's shooting for a turn -- can be a critical point of failure in the enemy's plan.  Chaos Marines can provide an alternate OODA Loop interruption so long as they are kept mobile.  This can mean constantly Advancing, or by being mechanized.  In either case, they can be used as a second-wave force to place pressure on the enemy in a way they didn't anticipate.  Your primary striking force should be utilized against the highest-priority targets to ensure that enemy keystone units are engaged effectively.  You then send your Chaos Marines after secondary targets.  Stick them on a mid-field objective, even if you don't need that one currently.  Position them to threaten a flank march so you can engage the enemy battleline from a different direction than your primary thrust.  Use them to denude enemy formations performing area denial missions so that your own deep strikers can land in the best spot without utilizing your primary firepower formations on what amounts to chaff.  Now any unit can do these sorts of ancillary missions, but Troops are good choices for them for two reasons.  First: see point 1.  Raptors and Bikes are faster, but that speed is wasted sitting on an objective for two turns, especially when a Tactical Squad shows up and can take it from them without ever rolling a single die.  Second: they're expendable.  You need at least three such squads to run a Battalion Detachment anyway.  The very system builds a measure of redundancy into your army build.  In most cases, you can afford to gamble a squad of Cultists on a Tide of Traitors move or running a Chaos Marine squad across open ground to babysit an objective or tie up those Fire Warriors because you should have at least another two units waiting for orders elsewhere.  It's better to gamble with cheap and redundant Troops than it is with more lethal and less numerous formations like Terminators.  Use them to force your opponent into making bad decisions, and it lessen the burden on your army.

 

5. Daemons.  Daemons are a special case for us.  First, I want to say that you should never take daemons at army construction unless you're taking a whole detachment of just daemons.  Doing otherwise eliminates your Legion Trait bonuses and is thus a very silly thing to do.  However, if you short-change yourself at construction and thus leave room for summoning a few daemon squads during the course of the game, you're in a good spot.  Daemons, as Troops, benefit from Despoilers of the Galaxy (or at least from Objective Secured via the recent errata).  The ability to summon them provides them with a similar advantage as deep strikers, as they can be brought to the critical points on the battlefield without first being denuded by ranging fire from the enemy.  And because you don't need to buy them at army construction, you can tailor what daemons you end up dumping onto the field to the enemy you're facing or to the situation at hand.  Failing to push through enemy armor saves?  Shove some Bloodletters into the melee.  Pesky Objective Secured Troops camping an objective you need, in numbers?  Throw a veritable wave of Brimstone Horrors at them.  The strength here is your ability to tailor what type of squad you need to the situation at hand.

 

 

So.  That got a bit more long-winded than I intended.  Hope I made some good points.

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah chaos marines still can take 2 heavy weapons in the new codex so they seem a lot better for the fact you can easily squeeze a couple of lascannons for extra damage to vehicles or autocannons/ heavy bolter for better infantry killing. A 10 man squad with heavies should prove very good for camping on an objective

[MoK]

See I was not aware Chaos Marine squads could take two heavy weapons. 10 men, combo-melta and Powerfist on Champ, two autocannons. Objective holders. Hmmm.

What is Despoilers of the Galaxy?

[Plaguecaster]

See I was not aware Chaos Marine squads could take two heavy weapons. 10 men, combo-melta and Powerfist on Champ, two autocannons. Objective holders. Hmmm.

What is Despoilers of the Galaxy?

Basically just means all troops in a chaos battleforged detachment have objective secured

[MoK]

Do troops not get obsec anyway?

[Plaguecaster]

Only with chapter approved which isn't out until the end of the year so for now until more codex books come out only codex space marines can contest a chaos marine or cultist squad on an objective Edited August 12, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[MoK]

Really? Only Marines and Chaos Marines have Obsec? None of the Xenos or other Imperial forces have Obsec?Lol, if so these rules get worse! Edited August 12, 2017 by MoK

[Azekai]

Really? Only Marines and Chaos Marines have Obsec? None of the Xenos or other Imperial forces have Obsec?Lol, if so these rules get worse!

Yes. 'Update failure' it is a pretty dumb reason to gain such a significant advantage for our troops. If I were a xeno player I would be pretty unhappy. 

 

Now, I am glad ork, nid, and guard blobs don't have ObSec; morale-immune hordes don't need any buffs, indirect or otherwise. However, giving only two armies the ability to claim objectives with relative impunity seems particularly unjust. It almost makes me want to stick with the Indices, despite how cool many of the Legion traits are. At least the Index did a good job of (briefly) leveling the playing field after the zany unbalance of previous editions (Eldar, ugh).  

[MoK]

So to 100% confirm. You need the Index and the Codex to get the full rules and you can still use Berzerkers as Troops?

[Panzer]

So to 100% confirm. You need the Index and the Codex to get the full rules and you can still use Berzerkers as Troops?

According to the articles on WarCom yes, according to what Kelly said on the stream no.

Since it's kinda hard to check what someone said somewhere on a stream which you can only see if you subscribe for $5 the month and since it's not even clear he understood the question properly (as it often happens on the stream) I'd go with 'yes' for now.

[Commissar K.]

I echo that sentiment. Especially because the Codex reveal article on the Warhammer Community website explicitly also stated that the Index where not invalidated by the Codex. What is something that is suggested to be used is the latest Datasheets and costs attached to models and equipment. Something that is quite logical when you think about it. However it would indeed make the Codex more of an update as something that is mandatory by itself.

Personally I hope we retain the Army rules for World Eaters and Emperor's Children. I don't feel they gain any drastical massive benifit if it's still allowed whatsoever. World Eater traits are not bad but not filling any particular weakness they had. What I see is that they became better at what they did (killing in melee) but didn't get the boost in the areas where they where weak before, such as Movement bonuses, Morale or even massive drastic any Psyker abilities. Even the possibly great Artefact is still linked to a Power Axe meaning a Daemon Prince cannot obtain it etc.

So all in all, unless GW says so (because the Codex doesn't prevent allowance) I would use the Army rules shown in the Index. As before, if you couldn't you couldn't play Death Guard and Thousand Sons right now, as they are the two Legions you cannot use with this Codex specifically. 

[the jeske]

This means that every Havoc who dies, and every wound taken on a tank, hurts you more than just losing a model.  Troops -- Chaos Marines in this instance -- provide back up heavy weapons.  A single missile launcher or heavy bolter or lascannon will, on its own, help you destroy the enemy but it won't provide a game-changing effect on its own.

 

 

That is only true if you have taken not enough of havocks/predators to overhelm your opponents ability to kill enough of his army, before you cripple his. And taking higher point cost csm units does lower the pool of points you can spend on those support or alfa strike units. This is one of the two things that makes cultists better then csm as troops, the other thing is cultists being better chaff. There is just no way to protect a fire base with msu csm  squads. And while infiltrating is a good tech, it worked in 3.5 because of speed lords/Lts and the fact that the whole army was infiltrating. For a single squad to be able to contest an objective alone one of three things would have to happen: ton of LoS/impassible terrain being used, opposing army being static and slow, opposing army being melee and slow.

[Closet Skeleton]

This thread seems a bit silly. Of course troops choices aren't as elite as elites choices, what else would you expect?

 

I think a lot of posters in this thread are suffering from not using 8th ed thinking. The veterans of the long war stratagem, the ("lackluster") Black Legion trait, that Slaanesh shoot again stratagem, these things all benefit 20 strong chaos marine squads.

 

Cultists will be best in units of 20-30 as well, that's how you best make use of that "get all your losses back and reposition" stratagem. 30 melee Cultists with prescience lead by a Dark Apostle and a Exalted Champion can use the veterans of the long war stratagem to wound knights on 5s.

 

That's 60 attacks, 53 average hits that generate another 20 attacks which is 18 average hits against imperium. Against t4-5 you're then going to get 52 average wounds (that's 17 dead space marines or 8 dead primaris, which is usually all of them), against t3 thats 63 wounds and even against 6+ its 39 wounds (after saves that's 13 wounds on a knight, enough to drop its BS which is kind of critical).

 

From a unit that may have already been reduced to a handful of models and then brought back to full strength in charge range.

 

So all in all, unless GW says so (because the Codex doesn't prevent allowance) I would use the Army rules shown in the Index. As before, if you couldn't you couldn't play Death Guard and Thousand Sons right now, as they are the two Legions you cannot use with this Codex specifically. 

 

Of course you can play Death Guard and Thousand Sons by raw, the chaos codex doesn't replace their rules like it does with World Eaters. Just like you can play Blood Angels still despite the Marines Codex replacing half the rules they're supposed to use.

 

By RAW interpretation of the FAQ you can use the World Eater's Berzerker datasheet from the Index in your troops slots, but if that's not what the designer intended then don't be surprised if the next FAQ says otherwise.

 

Saying that Khorne Berzerkers are now elite World Eaters and most World Eaters should be regular marines is a mild retcon but if that's what they're going for I suppose it makes some sense. World Eater marines are still berzerkers, they're just not as elite. You can still take vanguard detachments to have a pure berzerker army, you just get penalised for it.

[the jeske]

 

I think a lot of posters in this thread are suffering from not using 8th ed thinking. The veterans of the long war stratagem, the ("lackluster") Black Legion trait, that Slaanesh shoot again stratagem, these things all benefit 20 strong chaos marine squads.

And they do no benefit, quad AC havocks, combi plasma big terminator squads or EC noise marine units? Shoting twice a limited number of time is and will always be less efficient then shoting twice with 10 plasma or 4 AC.

 

Cultists will be best in units of 20-30 as well, that's how you best make use of that "get all your losses back and reposition" stratagem. 30 melee Cultists with prescience lead by a Dark Apostle and a Exalted Champion can use the veterans of the long war stratagem to wound knights on 5s.

 

Big cultist squads are easier to focus fire in case of charge, you have the whole unit boged in, and you may still need some chaff on the next turn. And I don't  the cultists blob with 2-3 characters in support taking on a knight thing. For the same points you can buy multiple units of havocks that do not have to do melee, or worry about terrain, losing models on the way to melee , having efficient down time turns[as they can shot from turn one, while a cultists blob will maybe engage the knight in turn 2]. Plus the squads do not suffer diminishing returns if the buffers die [and again if you are using some many buffing units, why not use the buffs on strong units like terminators for example, heck even possessed or zerkers if there has to be some sort of melee involved].

[Commissar K.]

 

 

So all in all, unless GW says so (because the Codex doesn't prevent allowance) I would use the Army rules shown in the Index. As before, if you couldn't you couldn't play Death Guard and Thousand Sons right now, as they are the two Legions you cannot use with this Codex specifically. 

 

Of course you can play Death Guard and Thousand Sons by raw, the chaos codex doesn't replace their rules like it does with World Eaters. Just like you can play Blood Angels still despite the Marines Codex replacing half the rules they're supposed to use.

 

By RAW interpretation of the FAQ you can use the World Eater's Berzerker datasheet from the Index in your troops slots, but if that's not what the designer intended then don't be surprised if the next FAQ says otherwise.

 

Saying that Khorne Berzerkers are now elite World Eaters and most World Eaters should be regular marines is a mild retcon but if that's what they're going for I suppose it makes some sense. World Eater marines are still berzerkers, they're just not as elite. You can still take vanguard detachments to have a pure berzerker army, you just get penalised for it.

 

The Codex also doesn't replace rules like it does with World Eaters my friend. As the Codex has no World Eater army coverage whatsoever and doesn't state you explicitly cannot use the World Eater Army rules found in the Index.

 

As before, the Codex, in terms of easy anology is an update, for Datasheets, Wargear points and more. When you use the Index and Codex (which you will have to because World Eaters do not have their own army Codex) you use the latest versions of those Datasheets etc. As per source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

Point remains, the Codex in itself doesn't replace anything. The latest Datasheet and costs do replace the older ones. 

 

Cheers,

Edited August 12, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Raven1]

I just understand why not let cult units be troops I think that's the whole point of the cult legions. Really you can't even use the argument for Thousand Sons you are either a sorcerer or dust.

[Commissar K.]

I just understand why not let cult units be troops I think that's the whole point of the cult legions. 

My thake on it is simpler.

 

The Codex does not cover any specific Army rules, it's a collection of new things and updated Datasheets. With the information we've gained from GW themselves we know we can still use the information from the Index that is not in the Codex. So by all accounts I do not see any rule or reason from the Codex that would not allow the player to use those Datasheets with those from the Index and the Army rules from the Index. 

 

In addition I also wonder if GW will allow Death Guard players to use the latest Datasheet found in this Codex for Plague Marines (they gained a lot of new equipment). The prime reason I wonder about this is because the Codex does say that you can't change the Legion Keyword from the Datasheets in the Codex to either Death Guard, Thousand Sons or Fallen...