The Troops question

[Raven1]

I agree with you if its not in the codex and it's in the Index you can use whats in the index.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I think what we're seeing in 8th edition is the elimination of astartes uniqueness across the board in favor of streamlining. None of the Loyalist armies have any troops that can really be considered CC specialist and most of their punch (pun intended) comes from the elites and FA which is the same you could say of CSM. I'm glad our troops are decently cheap as they're mostly going to be fulfilling the control objectives duties. 

[Raven1]

That and deep strike mitigation

[ChaosReigns]

I don't have any skin in the game personally since I don't play Emperor's Children or World Eaters, but I absolutely cannot fathom the notion that Games Workshop would include the ability for the Cult Legions to take Cult Marines as troops in the index only to take it away a couple months later when the codex drops. Moreover it seems highly unlikely that the Death Guard are going to be deprived of Plague Marines in the troops slot when their codex drops. The good news I suppose is that the army list page for the World Eaters and Emperor's Children isn't replaced explicitly in the codex, and both Legion Traits/Relics/Stratagems etc. and the capacity to take the relevant Cult Marines as troops is dependent on keyword as far as I can tell. No reason you can't do both RAW. 

 

Still, this is a major oversight by Games Workshop's design team and it better be errata'd quickly and they'd better render the correct verdict. If they don't I hope their customer service department gets inundated with complaints until this is errata'd properly. Props to Games Workshop where props is due but this is totally unacceptable. There shouldn't even be a question regarding whether or not the Cult Legions get Cult Marines as troops.

 

As for Phil Kelly, after the abomination that he penned in 6th edition he can keep his commentary about Chaos to himself.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I don't have any skin in the game personally since I don't play Emperor's Children or World Eaters, but I absolutely cannot fathom the notion that Games Workshop would include the ability for the Cult Legions to take Cult Marines as troops in the index only to take it away a couple months later when the codex drops. Moreover it seems highly unlikely that the Death Guard are going to be deprived of Plague Marines in the troops slot when their codex drops. The good news I suppose is that the army list page for the World Eaters and Emperor's Children isn't replaced explicitly in the codex, and both Legion Traits/Relics/Stratagems etc. and the capacity to take the relevant Cult Marines as troops is dependent on keyword as far as I can tell. No reason you can't do both RAW. 

 

Still, this is a major oversight by Games Workshop's design team and it better be errata'd quickly and they'd better render the correct verdict. If they don't I hope their customer service department gets inundated with complaints until this is errata'd properly. Props to Games Workshop where props is due but this is totally unacceptable. There shouldn't even be a question regarding whether or not the Cult Legions get Cult Marines as troops.

 

As for Phil Kelly, after the abomination that he penned in 6th edition he can keep his commentary about Chaos to himself.

Wasn't the OP's point in this thread not to focus on the cult troops? I don't know why people keep bringing it up. 

[ChaosReigns]

I was simply responding to the prior comments on page 2 regarding the question of Cult Marines. If the Cult Legions aren't able to take Cult Marines as troops anymore they're also screwed in the OP's opinion, so I think there's some relevance to the discussion there.

 

At any rate, since my post was the one quoted I guess I'll contribute my thoughts on Undivided troops too.

 

With Legion rules and an expanded list of stratagems I would say that both Chaos Space Marines and Cultists have a niche that they can reasonably fill. MSU Cultists are cheap and alright for camping on backfield objectives, but they have absolutely no staying power, even when they're in cover. If your opponent has any capacity to strike at the MSU Cultists they'll fold, end of story. Massed Cultists on the other hand can be an annoyance to remove if they're properly supported with leadership mitigation and can achieve decent results in melee if they're backed up by an Exalted Champion or Dark Apostle (or both). It's also a win-win for the Chaos player in that if your opponent is shooting at your Cultists as they move up the board they're not shooting at the units you actually care about.

 

I think Chaos Space Marines have become more worthwhile with the release of the new codex too though. They give us a more robust troops option that's also fairly cheap, and because of Despoilers of the Galaxy numbers are irrelevant for the moment. They do have some staying power especially in cover - certainly they're not going to be removed as easily with small arms fire. They have some flexibility with their special and heavy weapons, so you can basically tailor them to whatever battlefield role you're hoping they'll fulfill. I can say from personal experience that a big squad with chainswords can do some work when properly supported, but of course you have to be careful about not charging into dedicated assault units. Four bolter bros and a heavy bolter is only ten points more than the basic squad's cost and is a decent objective camper if you can get them in cover (thanks to others on this forum for pointing that out to me). It's been said in this thread before, but I think the simple answer is that Chaos Space Marines bring other things to the table besides straight up firepower. From that angle, yeah, Chosen and Havocs are vastly superior (as they should be, otherwise no one would take them), but Chaos Space Marines give you some tactical flexibility with Despoilers and their diverse loadouts and can also be used to bulk out your army in support of your more specialized soldiers.

 

Obviously some of the Traitor Legions are going to get more use out of Chaos Space Marines than others. I think an attrition based army using the Iron Warriors special rules would be both very fluffy and at least has potential to be decent. No morale tests with the warlord trait and if you're ramming big squads of Chaos Marines down your opponent's throat they'll draw fire away from your Havocs and vehicles, especially considering Despoilers. It goes without saying that massed Cultists are a lot cheaper but the changes to cover rules have hurt their durability substantially. MSU Cultists will generally be ignored unless they're sitting on an objective or one's opponent is trying to get first blood because they're (rightly) not perceived as a threat. Small squads of objective camping Alpha Legion Chaos Marines will be a pain to remove if they're in cover between the 2+ save and -1 to hit. etc. etc.

 

In conclusion I think a mixed composition for the troops slots is going to achieve the best results in most cases, and ideally you're going to want to have a plan regarding what you want your Cultists and Chaos Marines to do from a tactical perspective beyond simply removing enemy models. However, if you find yourself in a meta where you need to spend every last point on firepower to be successful either skip the troops altogether or do three MSU Cultists if you want the extra command points because no, Chaos Space Marines cannot compete with Havocs and Chosen in terms of raw damage dealing potential.

Edited August 12, 2017 by ChaosReigns

[Iron_Within]

20 marines+Prescience+veterans of the long war.

Hitting on 2's wounding on 3's (vs t4) in rapid fire range the equivalent to 10 heavy bolters if you also have special/heavy weapons. That'd put 17-18 wound on T4 and 22-23 on T3 and that's before special weapons.

Are Noise Marines with sonic blasters, yes. But they don't get obsec.

[Brother Aiwass]

Here's the extrapolation I promised.

 

Troops are, and indeed have always been at least since I started playing in 3rd Edition, the poor relation of almost every faction's army in the damage-dealing department.  I made them work in my 3.5 Chaos 'dex, but that was due to Legion rules and the fact that they were second-wave forces that arrived after my Raptors and Terminators had softened up the enemy.  In the age of double-firing Havocs and first-turn charging Heldrakes, of super-heavies and mortal wounds, the OP is right.  In the lethality department, basic Chaos Marines and Culltists cannot compete.

 

The kicker is, they don't have to compete.

 

Troops in the Chaos armies, whether they're basic Marines or Cultists (I have no experience with Tzaangors and daemons I will get to later), have one overwhelming advantage that serves their most basic purpose quite well.  They are cheap and their purpose is literally to take up space on the battlefield.

 

 

1. Troops can hold objectives better than anyone.  Thanks to Despoilers of the Galaxy, our Troops can now hold objectives against the likes of vanguard formations from other armies.  Deep strikers and outflankers and infiltrators (oh my!) are a threat to backfield objectives.  Most such units are not Troops and thus, regardless of their numbers.  For those enemy Troops that do achieve penetration against mid-field and backfield objectives, who holds the objective defaults back to numbers.  Because our Troops are relatively cheap, that means we can ostensibly put more Troops onto an objective than the enemy can push into our lines and thus maintain our hold on said objectives.  Chaos Marines are better than Cultists in this vein, since in the close defense of an objective, their better armor save and better armaments not only allow them to survive enemy attacks better but also to repel those attackers.  Bolters and chainswords may not be the end-all, be-all of armaments, but in sufficient numbers they can deal enough damage to capitalize on the damage done by special and heavy weapons within the squad (which again, I'll get to).

 

2. Troops can perform area denial.  In modern military terms, "area denial" refers to any means to prevent an enemy from occupying a specific point of ground.  Due to the relatively cheapness of our Troops, they can perform this function quite ably.  Here, Cultists perform better than Chaos Marines.  You can deploy them to cover empty ground internally to your lines and along the forward edge of your deployment zone.  Here, they serve either to prevent enemy deep strike, infiltration, and outflanking, all of which requires an open zone free of the enemy within 9" to utilize.  Alternately, they serve as a buffer or "speed bump" to force such enemies to expend their alpha strike damage on what are cheap and ultimately expendable models rather than ripping the heart out of your army by directly attacking your heavy hitters.  In this role, lethality or lack thereof is of almost no importance; all that is required in that models exist and are properly placed to forfend your lines.  Ancillary to this is the fact that flyers -- the fastest, most maneuverable unit type in the game -- have fairly large bases.  Spreading Troop units out to occupy empty space within your internal lines effectively turns off part of that maneuverability by denying "landing zones" for the large flying bases.  While you're unlikely to keep units with lascannons and missile launchers out of range this way, you can potentially force a flyer off the table by dictating the direction in which they must fly, or in the case of the Baledrake in particular, you can actually keep them away from their preferred targets by preventing them from closing within range of what they want to kill.

 

3. Troops can provide incidental fires.  Lethality isn't their strong suit, we already covered that.  Havocs and Terminators and Predators are going to provide heavier and more effective fires than anything a Cultist squad or Chaos Marines can bring to the table.  But what these units do bring to the table is the reverse of the "all eggs, one basket" approach.  Heavy weapons and tanks are expensive in points, and the heavy hitting units tend to mass them in order to provide saturation.  This means that every Havoc who dies, and every wound taken on a tank, hurts you more than just losing a model.  Troops -- Chaos Marines in this instance -- provide back up heavy weapons.  A single missile launcher or heavy bolter or lascannon will, on its own, help you destroy the enemy but it won't provide a game-changing effect on its own.  However, check your Index: Chaos and you will see that Chaos Marine squads can take two heavy weapons at ten men or larger (and as of this writing there's been no indication that this has changed in the about-to-be-dropped codex).  Two heavy weapons of a type is a serious threat on its own, providing half the firepower of a minimum Havoc squad but with a greater durability due to numbers.  Since we have to take multiple Troop units to pull the biggest Command Point benefits, then multiple such squads provide incidental firepower to back up the massed guns that come from the Elites and Heavy Support branches.  Losing a lascannon Havoc squad to some bad dice rolling isn't such a harsh blow to your army's lethality if you can make up for it with your Troop Marines and their lascannons.  And while some might malign the humble bolter or autogun, remember that any weapon can potentially kill any model in the game now.  This is the age of bolters using numbers to squeeze that wound onto a Vindicator or lasgun volleys taking down a Daemon Prince.  If you don't believe, watch any decent player push Imperial Guard around the table.  Those bolter shots are not "rounding errors," they're the means to swamp your opponent's ability to roll armor saves which was the entire meta response to armor throughout 6th and 7th Edition.  Ignore twenty bolt rounds at your own risk.  I learned that lesson the hard way when stormbolters killed one of my Razorbacks.

 

4. Troops can be used to affect the enemy's actions on the battlefield.  This one is harder to explain.  Again falling back on my military experience, I want to point out what is referred to as the "OODA Loop."  OODA stands for "Observe, Oriente, Decide, Act," and the OODA Loop is the most basic delineation of human decision making that I've yet encountered.  Interrupting the enemy's OODA Loop is seen as extremely important.  People go into situations with a plan, and interrupting that plan -- ie, interrupting the Loop -- is how you ensure that their plan does not survive contact with the enemy (as the saying goes).  This matters because if you can take actions that your opponent is not expecting, you can force them to deviate from their plan in such a way that they cannot recover.  Humans often do not make the best decisions when under pressure, after all, and usually seek the best short-term solution to the immediate and unexpected rather than absorb the situation in the current time and plan around said obstacle for future gain.  How can our Troops do this?  Well, first of all, they can pop up in unexpected places.  The Tide of Traitors stratagem allows you to basically teleport a squad of Cultists to virtually any point along the board edge.  Whether they do damage once they're there is incidental.  Their sheer presence -- either because they magically appeared near an objective or because they're gearing up to charge a ranged firepower unit and thus turning off it's shooting for a turn -- can be a critical point of failure in the enemy's plan.  Chaos Marines can provide an alternate OODA Loop interruption so long as they are kept mobile.  This can mean constantly Advancing, or by being mechanized.  In either case, they can be used as a second-wave force to place pressure on the enemy in a way they didn't anticipate.  Your primary striking force should be utilized against the highest-priority targets to ensure that enemy keystone units are engaged effectively.  You then send your Chaos Marines after secondary targets.  Stick them on a mid-field objective, even if you don't need that one currently.  Position them to threaten a flank march so you can engage the enemy battleline from a different direction than your primary thrust.  Use them to denude enemy formations performing area denial missions so that your own deep strikers can land in the best spot without utilizing your primary firepower formations on what amounts to chaff.  Now any unit can do these sorts of ancillary missions, but Troops are good choices for them for two reasons.  First: see point 1.  Raptors and Bikes are faster, but that speed is wasted sitting on an objective for two turns, especially when a Tactical Squad shows up and can take it from them without ever rolling a single die.  Second: they're expendable.  You need at least three such squads to run a Battalion Detachment anyway.  The very system builds a measure of redundancy into your army build.  In most cases, you can afford to gamble a squad of Cultists on a Tide of Traitors move or running a Chaos Marine squad across open ground to babysit an objective or tie up those Fire Warriors because you should have at least another two units waiting for orders elsewhere.  It's better to gamble with cheap and redundant Troops than it is with more lethal and less numerous formations like Terminators.  Use them to force your opponent into making bad decisions, and it lessen the burden on your army.

 

5. Daemons.  Daemons are a special case for us.  First, I want to say that you should never take daemons at army construction unless you're taking a whole detachment of just daemons.  Doing otherwise eliminates your Legion Trait bonuses and is thus a very silly thing to do.  However, if you short-change yourself at construction and thus leave room for summoning a few daemon squads during the course of the game, you're in a good spot.  Daemons, as Troops, benefit from Despoilers of the Galaxy (or at least from Objective Secured via the recent errata).  The ability to summon them provides them with a similar advantage as deep strikers, as they can be brought to the critical points on the battlefield without first being denuded by ranging fire from the enemy.  And because you don't need to buy them at army construction, you can tailor what daemons you end up dumping onto the field to the enemy you're facing or to the situation at hand.  Failing to push through enemy armor saves?  Shove some Bloodletters into the melee.  Pesky Objective Secured Troops camping an objective you need, in numbers?  Throw a veritable wave of Brimstone Horrors at them.  The strength here is your ability to tailor what type of squad you need to the situation at hand.

 

 

So.  That got a bit more long-winded than I intended.  Hope I made some good points.

I didn't plan to use any troops, until now. Gods be damned, you convinced me. Now I need to change the army list

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're welcome.  Properly employed, they can make a serious impact on the battlefield.  You just have to remember that the measure of a unit's worth should never, ever rest solely on how lethal it is on the tabletop.

[dansupvi]

so how does summoning work here? i dont have my rulebook on me (and have not used it in any games yet). 

 

you leave x points off your roster, which allows you to summon x points of daemons? or do you need to take another detachment, filled up with daemons and summon them?

 

thanks for the troops write up, very helpful for my word bearers 

[Plaguecaster]

Summoning doesn't use up or are counted towards detachments or unit organisation but are part of a reserve / summoning pool where you put aside as much points you want so you can practically summon whatever you want which has the daemonic ritual rule, if taken as part of an actual detachment then the daemons in that detachment can't be summoned Edited August 13, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Bluthusten]

I'm gonna use:

 

-Abbadon

-20 CSM

-20 Cultists

-20 Cultists

 

To flood the board and try to get "boardcontrol" the cultist-stratagem is pretty nice. I'll try to take 3 Sorcerers with Jumppacks to support them with Defence buffs (1 of each god) so you got:

 

-fearless CSM with fnp (Slaanesh)

-fearless Cultists with 5++ (Tzeentch)

-fearless Cultists with -1 Hit for the enemy (Nurgle)

 

Up to 1-2 rounds and it's enough to reach the midfield to stand there and fire. (Twice with the marines (Slaanesh)

 

And while they're running through the field, my Terminators etc can do their work

 

 

/edit: think about Abaddon with all Defence buffs :D :D

 

3++,fnp, -1 Hit for the enemy, halve the incoming damage.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Bluthusten

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm gonna use:

 

-Abbadon

-20 CSM

-20 Cultists

-20 Cultists

 

To flood the board and try to get "boardcontrol" the cultist-stratagem is pretty nice. I'll try to take 3 Sorcerers with Jumppacks to support them with Defence buffs (1 of each god) so you got:

 

-fearless CSM with fnp (Slaanesh)

-fearless Cultists with 5++ (Tzeentch)

-fearless Cultists with -1 Hit for the enemy (Nurgle)

 

Up to 1-2 rounds and it's enough to reach the midfield to stand there and fire. (Twice with the marines (Slaanesh)

 

And while they're running through the field, my Terminators etc can do their work

 

 

/edit: think about Abaddon with all Defence buffs

 

3++,fnp, -1 Hit for the enemy, halve the incoming damage.

Sounds pretty good to me.. I'm still trying to figure out if 20 is worth it over 15 at 2k. Over I'd definitely go 20. 

[Closet Skeleton]

I'll use two blobs of 20 chaos marines and a blob of 20 autogun cultists because I've got the marines, can proxy the cultists and I'm saving up for deathguard.

 

Big cultist squads are easier to focus fire in case of charge, you have the whole unit boged in, and you may still need some chaff on the next turn. And I don't  the cultists blob with 2-3 characters in support taking on a knight thing.

 

 

That's why you take both Havoks and Cultists. Buff characters can buff multiple units at once because they have auras and there's no joining units anymore. Of course you can just spam one option if you want to make the most boring army possible but the object of the game is to have fun.

 

You don't take two characters on the off chance that they can make cultists into an effective melee unit. You take two characters to buff your possessed and khorne berzerkers and then have the option of buffing 30 cultists who just re-appeared at full strength behind the opponent.

 

Veterans of the Long War works well on everything, but you don't always get to control your opponent's target priority.

 

 

My thake on it is simpler.

 

It doesn't matter what manner of rules lawyering you wrangle if the FAQ says "no".

 

Of course the Codex is supposed to replace the Index completely. GW don't want you using palanquin lords because they don't sell them. There are contradictory rulings otherwise so you can get away with certain things for now but I wouldn't put down any cash on something that might get ruined by an FAQ in a few weeks.

 

 

I think what we're seeing in 8th edition is the elimination of astartes uniqueness across the board in favor of streamlining. None of the Loyalist armies have any troops that can really be considered CC specialist and most of their punch (pun intended) comes from the elites and FA which is the same you could say of CSM. I'm glad our troops are decently cheap as they're mostly going to be fulfilling the control objectives duties. 

 

New Deathguard and Thousand Sons codex says no to that as does chapter tactics and stratagems. The only melee troops unit loyalists have lost was Blood Angel Assault marines and that happened in 7th.

 

Moreover it seems highly unlikely that the Death Guard are going to be deprived of Plague Marines in the troops slot when their codex drops.

 

The difference is that Death Guard and Thousand Sons don't get regular Chaos marines and are getting cult terminators for their elite slots. Noise marines and berzerkers both have two attack elite profiles now while Rubrics and Plague marines do not. TS aren't going to get stuck with just Tzaangors in troops and then have Rubrics and Scarab Occult in the same slot.

 

World Eaters and Emperor's Children might be getting codexes and daemon primarchs at some point but clearly are not on the near future release schedule.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

Of course the Codex is supposed to replace the Index completely. GW don't want you using palanquin lords because they don't sell them. There are contradictory rulings otherwise so you can get away with certain things for now but I wouldn't put down any cash on something that might get ruined by an FAQ in a few weeks.

 

 

Don't think youve read this then: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

 

 

 

I just bought Index: Imperium 1 – what should I do with it?

You’ll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Space Marines doesn’t include rules for playing with Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch or Grey Knights armies, so you’ll still need Index: Imperium 1 to play with those.

I just bought Index: Chaos - what should I do with it?

You'll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't include rules for playing with World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or Chaos Daemons armies.

 

So no, offcourse the Codex is not replacing the Index completely. GW just told us we can still use the Index for rules that arn't covered in the Codex...

 

[Brother Aiwass]

 

I just bought Index: Chaos - what should I do with it?

You'll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't include rules for playing with World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or Chaos Daemons armies.

 

So no, offcourse the Codex is not replacing the Index completely. GW just told us we can still use the Index for rules that arn't covered in the Codex...

FTFY

[Bluthusten]

But at least it's not "a troop question" :D

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I just bought Index: Chaos - what should I do with it?

You'll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't include rules for playing with World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or Chaos Daemons armies.

 

 

Where did you see that (about World Eater & Emperor's Children) ?

 

The codex clearly inclure rules for Emperor's CHildren & World Eater 

[Commissar K.]

 

I just bought Index: Chaos - what should I do with it?

You'll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't include rules for playing with World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or Chaos Daemons armies.

 

 

Where did you see that (about World Eater & Emperor's Children) ?

 

The codex clearly inclure rules for Emperor's CHildren & World Eater 

 

The Codex does not include the following:

- World Eater Army Rules (Index page 45)

- Emperors Children Army Rules (Index page 63)

- And many more but that's outside of this particular discussion.

 

What the Codex has included is additional rules for Datasheets that have specific Keywords. Additional is not overruling the old unless it is the same (which it isn't as there is not a single page called Army Rules for X and Y in the Codex). As per the FAQ in regards to Index and Codex there is nothing that states these two Army Rules have become invalidated, or others for that matter.

[Leonite]

 

 

I just bought Index: Chaos - what should I do with it?

You'll want to keep hold of your index. Codex: Chaos Space Marines doesn't include rules for playing with World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or Chaos Daemons armies.

 

 

Where did you see that (about World Eater & Emperor's Children) ?

 

The codex clearly inclure rules for Emperor's CHildren & World Eater 

 

The Codex does not include the following:

- World Eater Army Rules (Index page 45)

- Emperors Children Army Rules (Index page 63)

- And many more but that's outside of this particular discussion.

 

What the Codex has included is additional rules for Datasheets that have specific Keywords. Additional is not overruling the old unless it is the same (which it isn't as there is not a single page called Army Rules for X and Y in the Codex). As per the FAQ in regards to Index and Codex there is nothing that states these two Army Rules have become invalidated, or others for that matter.

 

... It contains World Eater Legion rules and Emperors Children LEgion rules. It has WE and EC army rules.

[Castigator]

While I want what you're saying to be true Commissar K, we simply do not know yet. You're quoting the Space Marine Codex as if it is the Chaos Space Marine Codex and we all know that just because they have ruled it that way for the lapdogs, it doesn't necessarily follow that it will work that way for Chaos.

 

Phil Kelly has been quoted as saying that Berserkers (and by extension, Noise Marines for EC) are Elites for World Eaters. This is the guy that has written the Codex, anything he says will carry some weight. I really want him to have misunderstood the question or for him to change his mind (I have 36 Noise Marines that might not see the battlefield for a very long time), but until we get a FAQ stating how this works, I don't think that anybody can confidently predict what will happen.

 

I agree with your interpretation about Cult troops, but ultimately it is just that, your interpretation.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah we really need a FAQ ruling to solve this issue. Hopefully GW will rule in favor of letting EC/WE keep their cult units troops but we really can't say for sure. If the marine codex is anything to go off of we'll have a FAQ within 2 weeks. 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Yeah we really need a FAQ ruling to solve this issue. Hopefully GW will rule in favor of letting EC/WE keep their cult units troops but we really can't say for sure. If the marine codex is anything to go off of we'll have a FAQ within 2 weeks. 

 

To be honest i was quite disapointed with the loose of this rules.

But as i try to build a V8 EC army list i came to this conclusions : 

- Brigade Detachment for SMC is impossible to achieve. Or to put it in other term : 

If you take Brigade Detachment is to make an army list based on Stratagem use. Those Stratagem like Endless Cacophony, VotLW or Excess of Violence.

 

So you will take full size squad. I don't want to spend "Endless Cacophony" on a 5 standard SMC squad. I want it for 6 bikers, or 5 Terminator, all with combi-weapon. Same goes for Excess of violence : i dont want it on a single spawn, i want it on 10 Possessed with Icon of Excess.

 

And good luck to get your 3HQ, 6 troops, 3 Elite, 3 FA and 3 support with big squad. 

 

Add the necessity to get a cover unit, preventing deepstriking.

 

I came to the conclusion you need Cultist if you want to play with Stratagem. You need MSU cheap troops to get Command Point for you big badass full size squad. Getting Noise Marine in troop sloot won't make much of a difference : If you take 3 or 6 MSU Noise Marine for your detachment, you won't get many points left. A 5 man Noise Marine is 116 point (with 3 Sonic and 1 Blastmaster). Brigad detachment with Noise Marine as troop : 700 points, you got 1300 points for 3HQ, 3Elit, 3FA, 3 support. Not worth it imho. 

[Sception]

The 'not all eaters are zerkers / not all children are noise' line is complete bs, because you know as soon as gw gets around to them they'll get cult releases same as the sons and death guard, where suddenly all the units from the cult legions are cult troops after all, and all the cultists and CSMs and whatnot you're supposed to buy to play them now won't even be legal choices for your army.

 

 

On topic, note that non-csm troops don't just cost you your legion trait (which, honestly, isn't a huge loss if you aren't playing alphas or maybe renegades) and obsec (much more of a penalty), it will also cost you your stratagems (unacceptable loss), unless you have another pure-CSM, non-auxiliary detachment in your army to unlock them.

[oreaper84]

Cultists are the clear winner in the troop category as far as versatility and effectiveness. This befits the fluff as they are by far and away the most numerous agents of the dark gods across the galaxy. I believe that EC and WE will need regular troops to supplement their legions, and the point that all WE are berserkers now is a valid one. I also recall WE story i have ever read denote the use of droves and droves of fanatical blood worshiping cultists soaking up bullet while the berserkers spring off their shattered spines to launch themselves at the enemy. I mean 1 min squad costs less than the turret of a predator. For less than the cost of a  helbrute you have your min 3 troop squads to get a battalion...i mean its not really that big of a deal.....