The Troops question

[OnboardG1]

Cultists are the clear winner in the troop category as far as versatility and effectiveness. This befits the fluff as they are by far and away the most numerous agents of the dark gods across the galaxy. I believe that EC and WE will need regular troops to supplement their legions, and the point that all WE are berserkers now is a valid one. I also recall WE story i have ever read denote the use of droves and droves of fanatical blood worshiping cultists soaking up bullet while the berserkers spring off their shattered spines to launch themselves at the enemy. I mean 1 min squad costs less than the turret of a predator. For less than the cost of a  helbrute you have your min 3 troop squads to get a battalion...i mean its not really that big of a deal.....

 

I ran three min cultists in a 55 pp game against eldar the other day. They were decent enough. They held the middle long enough for my Havocs to shoot his troops off the board and for the rest of the army to do their things. I lost because I was stupid with my objective placement but that wasn't the cultists' fault.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Cultists are the clear winner in the troop category

 

 

So Cultist are better than Daemonette for getting those Command Point ? 

[Raven1]

For netting command points alone I dont think anything can beat brimstone horrors. With horrors and really malefic lords or a the changing, tzeentch Herald you can get +3 command points for under 400 points even with the FAQ.

[Panzer]

As if I had 400 points left to get 3CP.....Marine units are expensive enough. :D

[the jeske]

Using csm in a csm army, what is this 4th ed ?

[Sception]

I'll always run at least 20 in two rhinos, for aesthetics if nothing else.  The only concession I'm considering making for 8e is splitting those marines into four units of five instead of two of 10 by converting some new champions.  That and a couple units of cultists makes enough for two battalions at 2k+ points.  I will say that I wish I could still get troop cult marines, chosen, or terminators for my Black Legion, but so it goes.

[micahwc]

2 malefic lords and 30 mutant rabble costs 180 points and gives you 3 command points in a battalion detachment.

[MoK]

I know this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Battlescribe now only has Berzerkers as Elites

[Sception]

I feel like I'd want at least a chimera (those are still transport 12, right?) to carry those malefics and a retinue of their mutants around in.  Smite's nice, but it isn't long ranged.

[Guiltysparc]

I know this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Battlescribe now only has Berzerkers as Elites , I know this doesn't necessarily mean much but it does potentially completely screw up my WEs army.

 

Thats because they aren't troops in the codex.  Take a vanguard detachment, problem solved.

[MoK]

Less CPs for less versatile units. Talk about getting screwed over.

[Khornestar]

So it goes. Not happy with it either, but cultists will do fine and serve the purpose of being on the table while other things are deep striking.

[MoK]

Don't have Cultists. I'm power armour only.

[Khornestar]

Well, one must adapt in some way, be it fewer CP or using some other units to fill slots. There's also the slim chance GW will change their minds/clarify things in favor of cult troops.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

There are a couple of interesting situations where at least one large squad of basic CSM can make sense. Most involve the centralization of buffs:

 

1. Fabius Bile

2. Let the Galaxy Burn

3. Iron Warriors (Cold and Bitter Warlord trait, plus stacking other buffs and ignoring cover against enemy soft infantry....field in tandem with Cultists to provide an anchor unit while the Cultists make up the rest of the line).

4.Alpha Legion....get a lot of cheap guys with chainswords in very close for 1 Command Point. Charge 1st turn and pop Vets of the Long War or something similar to blow a hole in an enemy's screen for other units to exploit.

5. Basically any situation where you'd use a big unit of Cult troops, but don't want to make the point investment and can make it up with temporary buffs instead. Given that those buffs will often be going on more productive units instead, calculations need to be made carefully.

 

On the other end, small 5 man squads with a single heavy weapon seem to do fine for filling up Troop slots and raking in Command Points.

 

World Eater fluff mentions Heavy Bolters a fair bit. This might be a good place to get them. 5 dudes, with 1 Heavy Bolter, Champ with Combi-Bolter and Chainaxe, Chainswords on everybody else. Keep moving forward and pulling the trigger at -1BS for the HB, then provide second wave bodies for CC. Repeat 3 times to fill Troop Slots in a Battalion. 78 points a pop and doesn't care much about Morale.

 

For EC, it might be a good place to get Missile Launchers while leaving Lascannons concentrated in Preds and Havocs and everything else for Noise Marines.

Edited August 16, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[DreamIsCollapsing]

For netting command points alone I dont think anything can beat brimstone horrors. With horrors and really malefic lords or a the changing, tzeentch Herald you can get +3 command points for under 400 points even with the FAQ.

 

Yea but I'm Slaanesh only so it's Cultist, Daemonette, CSM or Renegade Gard

[Sersi]

 

For netting command points alone I dont think anything can beat brimstone horrors. With horrors and really malefic lords or a the changing, tzeentch Herald you can get +3 command points for under 400 points even with the FAQ.

 

Yea but I'm Slaanesh only so it's Cultist, Daemonette, CSM or Renegade Gard

 

 

I'd just take a Battalion with 30 Daemonettes and either two heralds for 372 pts; or a herald and Masque for 384 pts for +3 CP.  You could even take two Slaaneshi Daemon Battalions and a EC Vangaurd. for 10 CP.  

[OnboardG1]

Aren't cultists only 3 points a model in the new dex? You could take 6 units of cultists and go for a full brigade. 

[Commissar K.]

Aren't cultists only 3 points a model in the new dex? You could take 6 units of cultists and go for a full brigade. 

They are 4. But I think Daemons are better but typically just very difficult to include as basic troops. 

The one thing that bugs me the most is that the Word Bearer Legion Trait doesn't allow you to ignore part of this rule for say Daemonic Infantry. To me their Trait doesn't even make sence in the context of this Troop topic. It's even more redundant when you think about the narrative design they made for Dark Apostles who seem extremely Word Bearer-ish and allready allow you to boost Morale...

 

Back to the topic! 

 

Cultitsts seem really fine to me however to date I'm not convinced that the Codex would render the Army Rules found in the Index irrelevant. Point being that it would make them all irrelevant and not just World Eater and Emperor's Children. I've read through the Codex a dozen times now and really there is nothing that would indicate that the Army Rules in the Index cannot be thaking, not a page, not a sentence not even a basic rule that suggests as such. 

What I like about Cultists though is that they too can benifit from all the Despoilers of the Galaxy rules and Legion Traits, giving us a small cheap edge over how this rules reflect on regular Space Marines who do not have acces to such cheap choices with those abilities.

Black Legion Cutists as a result seem fine to me, same can be said for those of the Alpha Legion and even a swarm of World Eater Cultists (with Butcher's nails) might be capable to do something provided they arrive in a larger quantity. So there are really some decent choices there.

 

Regular Chaos Space Marines to me largely follow the same principle but there is generally less reason to thake them I feel. The basic reason being that their choices are just very limited. While it's allright to give one Heavy or Special weapon, if you want that, thaking Havocs instead is almost always the better choice. In that aspect close to nothing changed to previous editions where both these units act the same and cost the same but one just has more Weapon choices. So I can't really see myself thaking them...

 

If the Army Rules presented in the Index are relevant (and I fully believe they are despite what some social media cat said on Facebook) I do believe that Emperor's Children have some fantastic options available to them provided you can sling some Power Weaponry on those units. Likewise World Eaters seem in a really decent place if their Troop choices are available aswell, like their other Army Rules.

 

When we just focus on the Codex though I think that Black Legion, Night Lords and Alpha Legion in general have the better 'troop support'. Big BL part in this is Let the Galaxy Burn, which is just a good reason to have at least one massive unit (though your more likely to use it on Havocs anyway), NL Terror Tactics add up really well and AL's Forward Operatives again can be a massive annoyance if you decide to drop a giant Cultists unit exactly where your opponent doesn't want it. 

[micahwc]

I'm very tempted to run 40 cultists with brutal assault weapons and a dark apostle with the Black Mace in my upcoming tournament. As alpha legion I can spend two command points to drop both units off 9" away from an enemy before the game begins. First turn either I go first and get a 40 man cultists squad into close combat, or my opponent goes first and has a really big distraction to worry about. Either way, it helps me. 

 

I'm trying to figure out the best way to buff them more. Veteran's of the Long War for 1 command point to reroll wounds will be nice as with the Dark Apostle I would be re-rolling hits and wounds on 80 attacks. Marking them with Khorne and using Furry of Khorne would be nice, but it's really expensive to use on cultists. Personally I think using Tide of Traitors would be really entertaining once the unit is broken down a bit.

[Panzer]

I honestly don't see any point in running melee Cultists. Their damage output isn't that much higher in melee and should balance out with what damage they could cause at range with the Autoguns. They also cost the same amount of points. ^^

[Trevak Dal]

I'll always run at least 20 in two rhinos, for aesthetics if nothing else. The only concession I'm considering making for 8e is splitting those marines into four units of five instead of two of 10 by converting some new champions. That and a couple units of cultists makes enough for two battalions at 2k+ points. I will say that I wish I could still get troop cult marines, chosen, or terminators for my Black Legion, but so it goes.

Yeah I definitely want to take advantage of the new "clown car" vehicle rules with multiple units able to roll in one.

 

I was thinking 5 csm, 5 havocs with autocannons or heavybolters and a brute as counter assault with a raptor squad as the "door kickers" that hop over or around a rhino.

 

Can I say how much I love that heavy bolters feel like SAWs now? That is so cool, I don't really care if it isn't the best choice, I love how they look-they were a pain to put together (loyalist devestator ones, I don't want to imagine the pain of putting a metal devestator together )

 

I'm probably going to hold off getting the codex until September, I still haven't played anybody but myself, but I've had fun dinking around my apartment building maps and fighting my guys. Reminds me of playing with my Legos back when I was a kid but with proper rules to how to fight them.

[MoK]

 

I'll always run at least 20 in two rhinos, for aesthetics if nothing else. The only concession I'm considering making for 8e is splitting those marines into four units of five instead of two of 10 by converting some new champions. That and a couple units of cultists makes enough for two battalions at 2k+ points. I will say that I wish I could still get troop cult marines, chosen, or terminators for my Black Legion, but so it goes.

Yeah I definitely want to take advantage of the new "clown car" vehicle rules with multiple units able to roll in one.

 

I was thinking 5 csm, 5 havocs with autocannons or heavybolters and a brute as counter assault with a raptor squad as the "door kickers" that hop over or around a rhino.

 

Can I say how much I love that heavy bolters feel like SAWs now? That is so cool, I don't really care if it isn't the best choice, I love how they look-they were a pain to put together (loyalist devestator ones, I don't want to imagine the pain of putting a metal devestator together )

 

I'm probably going to hold off getting the codex until September, I still haven't played anybody but myself, but I've had fun dinking around my apartment building maps and fighting my guys. Reminds me of playing with my Legos back when I was a kid but with proper rules to how to fight them.

I use BoC/BoP heavy bolters. Easy. For auto cannons I got hold of some Heavy Stubbers, cut the Barrels off and stuck them on the end of tne barrel of heavy bolter, again, easy. Got the parts off eBay.

Edited August 17, 2017 by MoK

[Sception]

I use underslung belt fed FW autocannons, though i would recommend the drum fed ones instead since the ammo boxes from the belt fed guns don't fit so great on CSM packs without a lot of chopping hassle. Alternatively, evilcraft makes some cool chaosy third party autocannons. Lascannons, too.

 

The suggestion of a party wagon with five CSMs for obsec plus five havoks for dakka seems like a pretty decent set up, with up to seven plasma guns, or three plasma guns and four heavy weapons of some kind. Though the cost of all those guns does add up.

Edited August 17, 2017 by malisteen

[Closet Skeleton]

Daemons are more powerful when you summon 20-30 than when you set up units of 10. That's the problem with Daemon detachments.

 

I'd love to run this list in a few games just to see what its like

 

Battalion

Abaddon

Exalted champion with power maul (black mace)

 

20 Marines

2 plasma guns, icon of vengeance, power fist and plasma pistol

 

20 Marines

2 plasma guns, icon of vengeance, power fist and plasma pistol

 

30 Cultists

autoguns

 

Battalion

Sorcerer with force stave

 

Sorcerer with force stave

 

20 Marines

2 heavy bolters, icon of vengeance, power sword and plasma pistol

 

20 Marines

2 plasma guns, icon of vengeance, power sword and plasma pistol

 

30 Cultists

brutal assault weapons

 

2000 points exactly

 

But I'll never have the models and don't have enough opportunities to play.

 

 

Aren't cultists only 3 points a model in the new dex? You could take 6 units of cultists and go for a full brigade. 

They are 4. But I think Daemons are better but typically just very difficult to include as basic troops. 
The one thing that bugs me the most is that the Word Bearer Legion Trait doesn't allow you to ignore part of this rule for say Daemonic Infantry. To me their Trait doesn't even make sence in the context of this Troop topic. It's even more redundant when you think about the narrative design they made for Dark Apostles who seem extremely Word Bearer-ish and allready allow you to boost Morale...

 

The WB rerolls synergise well with the Dark Apostle leadership buff while the otherwise superior Black Legion +1 buff doesn't so much. So that's fluffy from that sense.

 

 

I honestly don't see any point in running melee Cultists. Their damage output isn't that much higher in melee and should balance out with what damage they could cause at range with the Autoguns. They also cost the same amount of points. ^^

 

With prescience and icons of excess, infiltrating melee cultists are a LOT better than autoguns. If you're infiltrating a shooty unit you're better off with bolt or plasma guns.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Closet Skeleton