The Troops question

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I honestly don't see any point in running melee Cultists. Their damage output isn't that much higher in melee and should balance out with what damage they could cause at range with the Autoguns. They also cost the same amount of points. ^^

 

If you run Cultist only as Deepstriking cover maybe there is sense to give them melee weapons. Especially if your legion allow some of them to go first in battle even if they get charged (wich is their purpose). 

If you plan a HQ to support them (Dark Apostle or Exalted Champ) you get more benefit of the Aura by melee weapon rather than ranged.

 

I don't say melee weapon are better, that's just some thought. 

[Zodd1888]

I don't remember if this has been said yet but make the spammable troop options not count for detatchments.

[Panzer]

 

I honestly don't see any point in running melee Cultists. Their damage output isn't that much higher in melee and should balance out with what damage they could cause at range with the Autoguns. They also cost the same amount of points. ^^

 

If you run Cultist only as Deepstriking cover maybe there is sense to give them melee weapons. Especially if your legion allow some of them to go first in battle even if they get charged (wich is their purpose). 

If you plan a HQ to support them (Dark Apostle or Exalted Champ) you get more benefit of the Aura by melee weapon rather than ranged.

 

I don't say melee weapon are better, that's just some thought. 

 

Nah, not even then. If they get charged they'll get slaughtered. Even if they happen to be able to attack first they won't do any worthwhile damage to the unit that managed to charge them. At least not more than you could've done with overwatch as well.

 

Cultists are there to die. They die in melee just as well no matter which weapon they are equipped with. With Autoguns they can at least shoot a little bit before getting killed. I mean if the melee version were 1ppm cheaper I'd see the point in taking them, but they aren't.

[Commissar K.]

I think World Eater Cultists can be funny for melee with weapon and pistol but otherwise I see no reason to do it. Even as a WE Id skip on them unless you really want a nice horde. As above you remove them easily, they hit soft, the Flamer is neat on them and thats about it in my opinion.

[Raven1]

Berzerkers and Noise marines are back as troops, as they should be. Which is also a good indicator that DG and TS will continue to have cult marines as troops.

[MoK]

Yeah I don't care now. I've got my World Eaters Berzerkers back. So happy

[Commissar K.]

Berzerkers and Noise marines are back as troops, as they should be. Which is also a good indicator that DG and TS will continue to have cult marines as troops.

Absolutely.

 

In addition I think this topic has become a whole lot more interesting because indeed once again the Troop choices for certain Legions have improved. Granted this comes with some restrictions aswell because World Eaters can only have the Khorne Keyword so there is no option to acces Plague, Rubrics and Noise Marines for them specifically and EC does not have acces to the Lord of Skulls. Though I degress.

 

Personally the need for Cultists has been removed and Ill run my cheap Berzerker squads again with the Chain Axes and Power Fist, while still contemplating about Plasma Pistols. For EC I believe the effect to be similar, not running Noise Marines seems like a strange plan at this point.

 

Finally I do have to say that for most Legions this matters quite a little because they allready had very potent Legion Traits to begin with which also work out perfectly fine on Elite choices. For them I still believe that the inclusion of 20 Cultists or small 5 CSM units will work out for the best. Cultists with any weapon and double Flamers are allright. CSM grabbing what they can is okay too. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I wonder what happened to all the rumors of some GW official saying on twitch that Berzerkers and Noise Marines wouldn't be troops and that the codex was correct...? 

I swear this forum can be the most frustrating place sometimes. Obviously they were always going to be troops...

[Panzer]

I wonder what happened to all the rumors of some GW official saying on twitch that Berzerkers and Noise Marines wouldn't be troops and that the codex was correct...? 

 

I swear this forum can be the most frustrating place sometimes. Obviously they were always going to be troops...

It wasn't a rumour, it really got said on a live stream. And as expected it was a load of rubbish.

[Commissar K.]

I wonder what happened to all the rumors of some GW official saying on twitch that Berzerkers and Noise Marines wouldn't be troops and that the codex was correct...? 

Nothing, they are still there. The prime difference again is how sometimes social media gives an unclear awnser to a question that isn't too specific. (vague questions get vague awnsers)

 

The real awnser in question should have been if the whole slew of World Eater Army Rules would still apply to this Codex. The awnser that was recieved is that Berzerkers are Elites in this Codex. That awnser isn't wrong, they still are, but the question could have been specified in asking if Berzerker Horde (from the Index) would still apply to them. Luckily due to this update we get clarified that it is.

 

What this all leads to is that I hope GW sees that they are rushing things maby a little too fast in some places. For example I did not expect the Daemon Prince to suddenly recieve Legion Traits also. On one hand it's fluffy, on the other hand he's allready a monster at it's mere 180 points with wings and Weapons, this didn't really need another boost with Legion Traits... Offcourse I'm happy they decided it did  

 

I don't think that any on the livestream intends to give wrong awnsers but I can immagne them being so focused on the Codex for that day that they largely forget about some rules from the Index and how they correlate to an army. The ones who play CSM that day arn't solely playing CSM as us so forgetting that one little rule is an easy mistake. Even moreso if they wern't specifically playing World Eaters vs Emperor's Children in that stream for example.

 

Cheers,

Edited August 20, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

I wonder what happened to all the rumors of some GW official saying on twitch that Berzerkers and Noise Marines wouldn't be troops and that the codex was correct...? 

 

I swear this forum can be the most frustrating place sometimes. Obviously they were always going to be troops...

It wasn't a rumour, it really got said on a live stream. And as expected it was a load of rubbish.

 

 

 

 

I wonder what happened to all the rumors of some GW official saying on twitch that Berzerkers and Noise Marines wouldn't be troops and that the codex was correct...? 

Nothing, they are still there. The prime difference again is how sometimes social media gives an unclear awnser to a question that isn't too specific. (vague questions get vague awnsers)

 

The real awnser in question should have been if the whole slew of World Eater Army Rules would still apply to this Codex. The awnser that was recieved is that Berzerkers are Elites in this Codex. That awnser isn't wrong, they still are, but the question could have been specified in asking if Berzerker Horde (from the Index) would still apply to them. Luckily due to this update we get clarified that it is.

 

What this all leads to is that I hope GW sees that they are rushing things maby a little too fast in some places. For example I did not expect the Daemon Prince to suddenly recieve Legion Traits also. On one hand it's fluffy, on the other hand he's allready a monster at it's mere 180 points with wings and Weapons, this didn't really need another boost with Legion Traits... Offcourse I'm happy they decided it did  

 

I don't think that any on the livestream intends to give wrong awnsers but I can immagne them being so focused on the Codex for that day that they largely forget about some rules from the Index and how they correlate to an army. The ones who play CSM that day arn't solely playing CSM as us so forgetting that one little rule is an easy mistake. Even moreso if they wern't specifically playing World Eaters vs Emperor's Children in that stream for example.

 

Cheers,

 

It is common on this forum to find fellow gamers who live by the "unless it is in writing it is not..." That is exactly what I mean by "rumor." I absolutely agree that is how it went down, Commissar K. It's like the game of telephone, everyone repeats what someone has said and by the end it is drastically different than the original information. I have no doubt he meant the codex was correct. What I had doubts about were the people trying to claim his intention was to say Bezerkers and Noise Marines would not be troops. 

 

I actually the Index is what caused so much confusion.. If the Index simply had the rule stating Bezerker's battlefield role changed instead of creating two dataslates for Berzerker's there wouldn't have been as much to question. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Panzer]

Of course we live by that. However that is not the definition of rumour lol. You can look it up. It got said. Not a rumour, just a false statement.

 

[MoK]

 

Of course we live by that. However that is not the definition of rumour lol. You can look it up. It got said. Not a rumour, just a false statement.

 

 

 

Death to the false statement!!!!

[Closet Skeleton]

I don't think that any on the livestream intends to give wrong awnsers but I can immagne them being so focused on the Codex for that day that they largely forget about some rules from the Index and how they correlate to an army. The ones who play CSM that day arn't solely playing CSM as us so forgetting that one little rule is an easy mistake.

 

 

Khorne berzerkers being troops in the FAQ has nothing to do with the Index, its errata.

 

The writer in the livestream may very well have been correct that he intended for the codex to make Berzerkers no longer troops. That's irrelevant because writer's intent isn't the rules.

 

The FAQ change on how the World Eaters mark of khorne works is probably just a case of them assuming that nobody would be so fluff breaking as to notice that the rule as written didn't actually disallow world eaters plague marines and disc sorcerers. They're just clarifying bad writing that they didn't fix between the index and the codex because the codex was already written before the index FAQ and they didn't think that people would try and claim world eaters plague marines were legal.

 

Berzerker troops is probably a fair exchange for lacking entirely in sorcerers, but of course you can still break the fluff and take a supreme command detachment from another legion. Or ally in a battalion of world eaters which is sort of fluffy anyway (as long as you don't then throw warp time and prescience on them constantly).

 

 

Of course we live by that. However that is not the definition of rumour lol. You can look it up. It got said. Not a rumour, just a false statement.

 

 

 

Its only incorrect now that there's an official FAQ. Before then it was part of a contradictory mess.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Of course we live by that. However that is not the definition of rumour lol. You can look it up. It got said. Not a rumour, just a false statement.

 

 

 

Its only incorrect now that there's an official FAQ. Before then it was part of a contradictory mess.

 

And since we live in the present and not in the past, what I said is valid. It was contradictory then and it's false now. It never was a "rumour" tho. ;)

[Khornestar]

I've had some good to decent to terrible results from cultists.

 

As screens, they're pretty good. With autoguns, mark of Slaanesh, and a Sorcerer buffing them with Delightful Agonies they're survivable enough against units that are essentially guaranteed to splatter them (which is most units). With re-rolls to hit/wound from Apostles or Champs, they can chip away in close combat, too.

 

Against a primaris marine/Guilliman/knight list, they did fine. Against a Sisters of Silence/Custodes list, they got absolutely slaughtered. I could have played them better for sure (still don't know the rules for 8th), but with a large blob, if a bunch get killed, the rest are likely to die due to morale. Word Bearers re-rolling morale means nothing when the casualties are like... 18. I guess they're decent enough objective holders in small units if they're not being targeted, but once they are they'll fold super quickly. The recycling stratagem is pretty sweet, I must say.

 

But still, meh. To fill out detachments and deploy units on the board, they seem ideal. 

 

I really want to use CSM. I think they're my favorite unit to build due to the modular nature of the kits we've had for the past couple of decades. I think units of 10 armed with 2 lascannons and a combi-flamer + power weapon of sorts on the champ is looking good to me. I realize they not actually end up being all that good, but decent fire support combined with objective-holding ability and relatively survivable (at least a chance) against AP weapons. 

[Brother Aiwass]

For CSM, I do think about some loadouts for filling detachments. Cheapest one is barebones with either bolters or pistols and CCW (65 points), this however, looks like a waste to me, because besides detachment filling, they can't do much. With a HB, they're ok-ish at 75 points, but when you're looking for a Brigade, points add up quickly. I'm currently debating between flamer & c-flamer (85) which can work more or less as weak screen to predators or something, or a LC unit (90) which bring some punch against heavy targets. Dual melta is too expensive for me (101), and double plas is crossing the line (93), but have more range and utility than meltaguns.

 

I'm having a hard time making lists currently.

[Khornestar]

I prefer the power level system, where every unit can be taken to its fullest potential.

[OnboardG1]

For CSM, I do think about some loadouts for filling detachments. Cheapest one is barebones with either bolters or pistols and CCW (65 points), this however, looks like a waste to me, because besides detachment filling, they can't do much. With a HB, they're ok-ish at 75 points, but when you're looking for a Brigade, points add up quickly. I'm currently debating between flamer & c-flamer (85) which can work more or less as weak screen to predators or something, or a LC unit (90) which bring some punch against heavy targets. Dual melta is too expensive for me (101), and double plas is crossing the line (93), but have more range and utility than meltaguns.

 

I'm having a hard time making lists currently.

 

The question isn't whether five man units of CSM are good, it's whether they're better than the alternative at the same role. Ten cultists are forty points, while five CSM are 65. That means your cheapest brigade is going to be 240 points for cultists or 390 for CSM. That's a dakka pred worth of points there. The CSM aren't as good at screening, although they are more competent at holding points. I'd kind of be inclined to take two units of flamer and combi flamer in a rhino and fill the rest out with cultists (clocks in at a 410 if my maths are right). That way you have 40 warm bodies to block deep strikes and charge lanes while having two decent little squads that can dive on an objective late game and hold them against anything short of a mass of troops. 

[Brother Aiwass]

I know cultists are more efficient but there is no way I'm going to build and paint 60 of them :P

[MoK]

That is the reason I don't want to use Cultists, I refuse to paint that many. In my Guard army I went for Scions so I don't have to paint as many.

[Panzer]

I honestly only use Cultists because it's good to have SOME mass in your army and because it gives some variety for basically no points. :P

Apart from that I'm very happy with just Noise Marines as my Troop choice. :D

[Commissar K.]

Yeah since the update the whole topic could actually start anew...

Some things I do think are very true still are that in terms of Troop choice I deem Cult Troops to be the best period followed by Cultists and Daemons being largely in the same place. Unfortunatly this leaves the regular Chaos Space Marines in a very odd spot because they are strictly inferior to Cult Troops while more expensive as Cultists and Daemons but not really having more options whatsoever. In fact we could even state that Cultists have more options as them because of the quite relevant Stratagem.

In the end I think the CSM could have had two saving graces which they are now missing, being:
- Make Tide of Traitors Cultists or Chaos Space Marine (Troops) as from a narrative perspective this isn't unthinkable either.
- Let CSM Troops have their whole shebang of Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Chainsword (but likely have them cost 1 point more for it)

I understand why GW went for this route however, as the Chaos Icon is available to them and they do have the option to select their wargear as they see fit. Likewise they do benifit from being able to thake objectives even if a lone CSM is present. However the simple fact of 40K remains that if you have an Havoc option with Marines costing the same but having 4 Special/Heavy choices that unit in itself will always be better due to weapon selection. Likewise we see cult troops being much better in a particular role and this skew in itself usually make a whole army better. 

So the top 3 for me remains, 1. Cult Troops, 2. Cultists, 3. Daemons. The advantage non-cult Legions have however is that Cultists arn't a bad Troop filler and historically speaking spending the least ammount of points into Troops always has been very competitive for 40K. The real cash is still found in the non-Troops overall. 

Cheers,
 

[Closet Skeleton]

My 10 man 2 plasma guns, plasma pistol and powerfist sergeant chaos marine squad did well for me last game, but that was mainly because they got to the enemy without being a target and I drew out a bunch of enemy assault characters by sacrificing a 20 strong cultist blob.

 

The 10 man unit with two heavy bolters were less impressive and just slowly mopped up some units my possessed and berzerkers didn't have the time to deal with.

 

Autocannon havoks have been much less useful in comparison.

[micahwc]

Just played a tournament and lost a lot of cultists, I don't really like them in practice now. Every game I played yesterday had a unit of 30 cultists killed in the first turn of shooting. Every unit of 30 cultists gave up first blood, which helped lose me the first two games as we were tied apart from first blood.

 

I think a minimum troop squad of 5 marines, plasma gun, and combi-plasma, with pistols/chainswords on the others sounds workable. It's 93 points for 2 plasma shots. Stuff em in a rhino with 5 berserkers. It's around 240 points total for the three units, pricey, but will get up close in a hurry.